genejockey 

I watched one of Cam Nichols' videos, this one was about nutrition. He'd always done his training in the morning, not consuming much while on the bike. He'd have a normal-ish breakfast and lunch, but then around dinner time and into the evening he went into what he called "Beast Mode", where he'd eat a big dinner and then snack voraciously. And he'd have difficulty getting down to "racing weight" and lean-ness.

So, on the advice of a Sports Nutritionist, he made a couple changes - fueling on the bike, and eating a lot more calories and protein earlier in the day - and he found that not only did his workouts go better, but also he was able to lose weight and increase lean muscle mass AND he wasn't ravenous in the later part of the day.

Well, the first part - light breakfast and lunch, then ravenous in the evening - sounds like me. So I thought maybe I could shift my calories earlier in the day. Then I looked into protein requirements for older athletes. Holy crap! as much as 2g/kg, which for me basically means 180g of protein a day. So, I looked at yesterday's eating, and it added up to 77g. So, even for the low end of what a guy my size and age should be eating, I'm about halfway there. I start looking into how much protein is in various foods, and I was shocked to learn, for example, how LITTLE there is in an egg. Or in peanut butter. Or in most yogurts. Or storebought lunchmeat..

So, how do you do it, and ideally without resorting to protein powder or similar? And have any of you tried the Front Loading approach to dieting? How's it work for you?

MoAlpha

Few points:

So-called anabolic resistance, or the loss of protein absorption in old age, has not been found in endurance athletes, so the daily requirement may be less drastic for you.

A.M. loading of daily protein intake is good because it is said by some authorities that a big slug (30 g) is required to reverse the catabolic state related to overnight fasting.

I’m a lot smaller than you and I can’t meet my requirement without whey powder.

Protein don’t fuel ****.

genejockey 

Just to be clear, neither Nichols nor I were saying it does. Maybe I missed saying it but he started eating carbs during the ride, maybe not enough to replace all he was burning, but a lot. Whenever there's a thread on fueling during the ride, it seems like most people - and I include myself - aim to eat as little as possible to prevent bonking, rather than as much as we're burning.

Now, obviously a BIG problem with that is if you burn 800 Cal. while eating 600, then treat yourself to an extra 1000 when you get home!

Here's the video.

wolfchild

For me it's starting my day with a big high protein breakfast in the morning, then consuming light high protein snacks/drinks throughout the day and a big heavy high protein dinner in the evening. I don't believe in protein powders. I get all the protein I need from eating eggs, drinking milk, eating yogurt and eating meat. I also believe that one should be consuming both carbs and protein during rides and not just carbs alone.

terrymorse 

Why consume protein during rides? I haven't seen that recommendation before.

wolfchild

To feed the muscle and prevent muscle breakdown.

terrymorse 

Are you basing this on any scientific findings, or on recommendations from experts?

I found this article from an ultra-running site:
____

THE ROLE OF PROTEIN DURING EXERCISE

While the data on protein directly improving performance is mixed, data on protein during exercise improving performance in subsequent exercise is clearer...Specifically, the ingestion of protein seems to selectively decrease protein degradation rather than enhancing protein synthesis. The positive protein balance is associated with improved performance the day following exhaustive exercise and might prove useful for athletes completing multi-day stage races or even really long ultra events that may take in excess of 24 hours2...

Carbohydrates and fat are still king when it comes to providing energy during prolonged exercise. However, including protein during exercise may indirectly improve performance at a later date by helping create an environment for expedited recovery.

Also this, about when you should consume protein:

The latest research shows that protein will help recovery whether you consume it before or even during exercise. There’s nothing magic about the 20, 30, or 60 minutes after a workout. The benefits come from the protein itself, according to Schoenfeld, not the exact timing of its consumption.

Excerpt From Good to Go: What the Athlete in All of Us Can Learn from the Strange Science of Recovery, Christie Aschwanden

wolfchild

I wasn't talking about protein improving performance, never said that...All I was saying is that protein is essential for preserving muscle. If I am doing a 6 hour ride like I did today I am definitely going to be consuming protein during the ride.

Jughed

I don’t eat breakfast. I don’t fuel for rides unless I’m in for a long/intense day. And I don’t consume carbs.

I eat 2x per day pretty much regardless of activity. Meat, fats and veggies for the most part.


my fitness slowly improves year after year, and my weight slowly burns off…

My ride yesterday AM was after an 18 hour fast, only had coffee/water before the ride, only had water on the ride. 1.5 hours of high tempo, right on the edge of threshold - no drop in power, no fatigue during or after the ride. Ate eggs on low carb bread about an hour after.

I really think these diets are for full on athletes/racers that train insane amounts and need absolute peak performance at all times. The rest of us - we can make do without most of what they consume.

genejockey 

Given that cyclists at the top level have to consume about 6000 calories a day, yeah. However, this is not really what this is about. I tend to eat a light breakfast and lunch, and to a 1 1/2 hour ride in the late afternoon with nothing but water, and then I'm ravenous in the evening, which makes calorie control problematic, so I was curious about the whole "front loading" idea. In addition, like Nichols, I tend to do my weekly long ride eating only enough to stave off the Bonk. So I thought I'd try something different, and see whether it makes a difference in how hungry I am late at night and also how the last 20 miles of my 60 mile ride go.

Carbonfiberboy 

Try eating half your burn during the ride, not as little as possible. On 1.5 hour rides, I doubt that a significant amount of protein is burned, but on long rides I think it's an issue and one should consume 5-15% protein on the bike or at rest stops. I mix whey and malto for my on-bike fuel for long rides. On short rides of 1-2 hours,, I just use a sports drink or eat a bar.
https://us.humankinetics.com/blogs/e...cise-and-sport

rumrunn6

fwiw - was using protein powder for a bout a year. mixed it w/ various things. never tased good but I just took it in at specific times. seemed easy enough

genejockey 

That's what I'm thinking, at least carb-wise, for the long rides. The 1 1/2 hr weekday rides will probably still be done with water only. Yesterday's long ride, I ate two Clif bars, which were about 1/4 of my calories, but I couldn't tell if it made a difference because what had been a 5 mph tailwind on the trip out became a 14 mph headwind on the way back.

Carbonfiberboy 

I prefer to ride with both HR and power. If my HR stays stable at a given power, I'm fine. If HR drops, I'm low on carbs. If it goes up, I'm a bit dehydrated. I never look at my speed, because that metric is basically useless if I have the other two. This works for me no matter how long the ride. Of course as I tire, my power and HR will both drop, but I try to minimize that with training and nutrition. If I do it right, I can make the last 30 miles of a double my strongest because I'll have no reason to hold back.

MinnMan

I find protein shakes with whey powder to be pretty easy and tasty. 1 frozen banana, 1 cup skip milk (sometimes with emulsified chia seeds), whey powder, dark chocolate syrup from a quality source (not Hersheys),

Otherwise, I get most of my protein from lean chicken breast, fresh fish, yogurt, and Pro Bar protein bars (20g protein/bar).

But, with all that, I very much doubt I get 2 g/kg protein/day. That would be about 140 g in my case.

PeteHski

I can relate to this too. I tend not to eat much in the morning and then often snack way too much late in the evening, especially if I'm up late. I do fuel my rides though, especially hard ones. But it's pretty much impossible to eat anywhere near your burn during a ride, especially on a hard ride. I can manage about 80g of carbs per hour without gut issues.

I also struggle to eat the recommended amount of protein. Carbs and fats I'm usually on the money. I may well try front-loading my calorie intake more and see if it makes a difference.

Trakhak

Not really addressing Carbonfiberboy's post in particular, but several people have posted that they make sure to eat significant amounts of protein during longer rides. Which is fine for moderate-effort rides, no doubt. But digesting protein can be more taxing than digesting carbohydrates. At pro-level race speeds, concentrating predominantly on ingesting easy-to-digest carbohydrates makes sense.

In any event, from what I discovered via a search a minute ago, it seems that the pros riding the Tour de France confine their eating during each 5-to-7-hour stage mostly to, e.g., rice cakes, jam rolls, and energy bars and gels. Little to no protein, in other words.

terrymorse 

The latest expert wisdom says that while protein is essential, it doesn't matter when you consume it. If you're getting protein at every meal, you ought to be fine.

But if you're riding for many hours and skipping the midday meal, maybe consuming some protein on the bike makes sense. If you can tolerate it.

Carbonfiberboy 

Well, there is this:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21399532/
plus other similar studies. The thing to watch for in these sorts of studies is if the two concoctions being compared are isocaloric. My typical 200 Cal./hr drink is 14% protein, so that's 7g protein per hour. I doesn't seem like that's going to present any digestive difficulty, does it? I figure it's sorta like the idea that consuming carbs during a ride reduces the amount one needs to eat after a ride. Same thing with protein. Note that those pros drink a huge protein shake immediately after riding.

Other links:
https://marathonhandbook.com/how-to-...g-muscle-mass/
https://hammernutrition.com/blogs/en...w-much-protein

Trakhak

Yes. After the stage, not during.

spelger

serious question...how much time between "front loading" and actually riding is considered front loading and not just being a pig? i do think there may be a benefit but unfortunately for me my big rides of the day happen riding home from work in summer or after work when the mornings are way too cold.

PeteHski

Pros usually eat around 3 hours before a race.

spelger

oh, that should work then. i get out at 3pm. just need to bring more food or better food.

genejockey 

Front loading in this context is more about eat more earlier in the day to avoid overeating later. It's the fuelling the workout thing that is about performance.