indyfabz

Yeah. And I would keep checking up the point you leave. As we have seen during just the last week, things can change quickly. Reservation where available might also be a good idea. For example, state parks in NJ and PA are running at 50% capacity when it comes to campsites. I know of one private place I wanted to stay at during an overnight trip that was not accepting tent campers. I’ve got something planned for after Labor Day that uses two PA state parks. If I think I can pull it off I will definitely make reservations. Food may be an issue one day because there is really nothing around except on restaurant unless I want to carry groceries a long way. I’ll check to see if they are open and doing takeout or have outdoor seating. All the other nights I can shop and cook for myself. Just remembered that the first night is in a federal campground. I’ll have to check its status as well. There are uncommon hurdles so I think people need to be flexible and have a plan B for each day.

Tourist in MSN

Good discussion of Covid risk at this audio link, about 42 min long. Surfaces mentioned about 17 min into the audio.
https://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-a...ate=2020-06-17

DropBarFan

I agree that the CDC/MSM reports about surfaces have been quite inconsistent...but much of the media was rather opposed to 'early' re-opening so I don't think they were trying to gloss over the surfaces thing. However I'm not a big fan of restaurant food anyway...on tour it's fairly easy to buy from grocery stores & cook on the road.

DropBarFan

Well I guess upper-Midwest folks are known for liking the outdoors & getting the most out of summer-time. In DC area traffic has ticked up a bit in the last 2 weeks but nowhere near the normal near-gridlock. Recently at an LBS I was pleasantly surprised to see that many of the helmets offered are in hi-viz colors...always thought it was dumb to wear a black helmet.

That NPR audio bit about surfaces was interesting. Every fall the MSM does stories about flu & vaccines but I've never seen them claim surfaces were a problem.

Happy Feet

If you can't catch covid from surfaces - why the need for hand washing?

pdlamb

Do try to keep up!

What we're all suffering through is the urgency to get the best available information disseminated widely, even as the virologists, epidemiologists, et al continue to work the science behind this particular virus. It's be hard work, or it'd be a whole lot easier to hire a virologist. So mid-March, it looked like a deep in the lungs respiratory disease, it made sense to compare it to various diseases that are spread by touching a contaminated surface and then rubbing your face. Three months plus later, it looks like it starts as an upper respiratory disease, indicating it's spread by aerosols (or, if you're a fuddy-duddy epidemiologist, air-borne particles. Yes, some people are stuck on these definitions without a distinction.).

But the science is still going on, and there's not yet a definitive answer that either (a) SARS-COV-2 is spread mostly by aerosols, or (b) SARS-COV-2 is spread mostly by those air-borne particles that settle onto a surface, and the next victim touches that surface and picks their nose or wipes their eyes. It's a pretty good bet that the answer is (a) AND (b), so it's smart to wear a mask AND to wash your hands or use hand sanitizer.

Happy Feet

Please read the thread if you are going to make smarmy comments.

My question was a somewhat rhetorical reply to the previous question of whether you can catch covid from surfaces. If you don't catch it from surfaces why wash your hands? begs the question... for most people.

Whether it's aerosol or particle - unless you believe the virus dies immediately upon contact with a surface, it's pretty likely that touching that surface transfers the virus to your hand.. and then by touching.. to your eyes, nose or mouth.

pdlamb

For now, most of the quarantines are imposed on air travel (or possibly sea travel for Alaska and Hawaii). Have there been any reports lately of state troopers or sheriffs attempting to enforce these quarantines? I'm discounting the two month old stories of Texas Rangers stopping cars with Louisiana plates on the interstate -- even then, the word was you could get off the interstate and drive into Texas on the nearby U.S. highway without being stopped.

If so, I'm curious how they're handling bike tourists. Using the absurd premise that Texas or Arizona residents are suspect disease vectors just because of their residence, how would you handle a bike tourist who's riding from either of those states to Pennsylvania or New York? It would take me a lot longer than the 14 day incubation period to get from the Texas state line to the New York state line. (Although I might be able to make it from Arizona to Wyoming in that length of time.) Similar questions dog quarantining long haul truckers (the ones with 16 more wheels than what I drive); if a trucker's been on the road for a month, are the locals going to keep him out of the state? Even if he's got a load of food or medical supplies?

And have the Midwest or western small towns become so frightened that they're turning away paying tourists now? I was a Cassandra for predicting that possibility a while back, has it come to pass?

DropBarFan

Well the scientists say we don’t know how much virus is needed to cause infection so I suppose the idea is to ‘cover all the bases’ with hand-washing etc even if the chance of catching from surfaces seems to be small. & doing experiments with human volunteers would be “unethical”.



Anyway, how is this a big problem for bike touring? One can wipe food packages & hotel surfaces, carry one’s own food utensils etc.



A bit off-topic but if logic ruled we would have a push to install old-fashioned Asian-type hole toilets. Currently, Chinese researchers claim that flushing sit-down toilets can actually spread COVID thru splashing/spraying toilet water. COVID or not, I find it gross that folks sit on filthy toilet seats vs squatting on the rim which is more efficient anyway.

Happy Feet

The big problem is that everyone in the US seems to think what they are doing isn't the problem. The guy on a bike tour, the girl going to the crowded beach, the people going to mass gatherings... and instead of just getting on with doing the right thing it seems it is viewed as a patriotic act by many to reject any sense of collective interventions for controlling a mass pandemic. In most of the rest of the world it is considered a patriotic act to engage in those same interventions to help the country. As a result most of the rest of the world has flattened the curve to a point where things like travel and commerce is reopening.

The problem specifically with cross country bike touring is that few people really bike tour across a country in isolation and many parts of the US are in the midst of uncontrolled viral outbreaks. If you use public facilities there is a chance you could come into contact with, or spread, the virus. If you travel from region to region you potentially become a vector for greater spread. If you get sick, you place a burden on the health care system in the community where that happens. If you are asymptomatic, you potentially spread the virus without knowing. If you get sick enroute you have to consider: where will you stay to quarantine for two weeks? Will you ride covid out in a tent? Will they rent you a hotel if you are sick? Can you rent a car if you are sick? Will you be allowed to travel if you are sick? Figuring that out mid tour isn't great and you potentially become another part of the problem. In a pandemic one should try to reduce problems, not create new ones. Health officials and front line workers in communities have enough to deal with already without the homeless bicycle tourist dropping by.

Although everyone is different and one might argue they won't pose a threat, I think most people engaging in a cross country bicycle tour do so with the expectation of some interaction with other people or facilities or attractions. Otherwise I think they call it a self supporting bikepacking race.

Perhaps this is just the year to readjust and look to tours that cover a more localized area with a reasonable expectation of bailing out if one gets ill. Where you can research facilities to see if they are open and what the travel restrictions might be. In the US, each state has it's own requirements that may change as the summer goes on and infection spread increases. Maybe more self sustained tours are in order, so one doesn't have to stop at local establishments so often. It's not forever, just one season. By next year they will most likely have some sort of vaccine/viral suppression developed that changes the landscape again.

indyfabz

That's the approach I am taking this year. I did one three-day last week where I probably came into contact with fewer people than I normally do. Even the two train rides were not crowded, allowing me to keep my distance from people. Hoping to do another three-day in my area in the next couple of weeks that will gain allow me to minimize interaction with others.

djb

First of all, thanks Happy for putting that all down. Me personally, my family, friends and the vast majority of the general Canadian population understand that this is the responsible approach to working together to keep the numbers in control, and yes it is done with a patriotic/caring communal take on why we are doing it.

it is the only logical and practical approach to this.
There is unfortunately multiple, sufficient and clear evidence of various countries where disregarding this approach has a negative outcome.

and so yes,we are going to be doing local trips,not going into restaurants, and really following all the same social distancing and general protocols that I practice now, all that I take very seriously given that I am helping my older, vulnerable parents.

Tourist in MSN

Was thinking about your comment for the past few days. And a couple days ago during a 20 plus mile exercise ride, noticed several other riders out for exercise and I thought about your comment on helmets when I was looking at other riders. I concluded that when looking at them at a distance, color of helmet almost did not matter. The amount of surface area that I saw from the front or behind them of their helmet was about the same as the surface area of one short sleeve on a jersey. Jersey (or jacket) was the obvious place to put something to be seen, helmets not so much.

Over the years I have discarded three helmets from age, probably mostly from UV damage. At this time have four helmets: high vis color, white, red and black. I did not need a fourth helmet last summer, but a bike shop in Halifax NS (Cyclesmith) was extremely helpful, so I felt obliged to spend some money there, and bought the high vis helmet plus a jersey.

Years ago I recall hearing that the reason that tires are almost always black is that the carbon black is added to tire compounds to make them more UV resistant to make them last longer. When I go out on a long ride on a sunny day, It has been automatic for me to grab the black helmet as I assumed that helmet had the best UV protection.

I was now curious about whether or not black tires were more UV resistant, so a quick google search yielded a few links, and I opened this link that confirmed the carbon black was good for UV protection, although it said it also served other purposes:
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/...ires-are-black

So, I will continue to preferentially grab my black helmet on long sunny rides. Will a black helmet last longer because of better UV protection? I have no clue, but unless I hear differently, I will assume it does.

Tourist in MSN

Yup. Fully agree.

Happy Feet

This graphic shows why a cross country bicycle trip may be problematic and seems a little crazy from outside the bubble right now.

PedalingWalrus

let's hope we turn the map blue after November :-)

Happy Feet

Well, politics aside, there is no doubt a need for decisive leadership in a health crisis. That map shows it's not just a state by state issue.

Part of our success so far has been the consistent and simple messaging (to the point of being some what pedantic) that basically drilled the core concepts home to most Canadians. Google doctor Bonnie Henry. She has emerged as a somewhat national hero for her daily calm, clear, steadfast and compassionate steering of the boat in BC.

mev

At the risk of being too political, I am curious of one aspect from the Canadian's who have identified as such in this string.

How much do you see more of a unified "Canadian" approach/attitude to the virus vs. a province by province approach?

The reason I ask is in my bike travels through Canada, I noticed at least as much different regional attitudes as I have in the USA. For example, people in Alberta frustrated why things are written with both English/French when they don't see French-speaking people there; or people in Atlantic Canada with a different attitude towards Federal Government intervention than elsewhere, differences between attitudes in a more urban places like Toronto or Vancouver vs. more rural areas, Quebec in general, etc. My understanding is also that a large part of the delivery of health services is by province even when following national laws. So I could easily see differences in how aggressively Covid-19 measures are put in place or endorsed depending on the province. Particularly if the hardest hit areas are initially more localized.

I realize it is hard to completely generalized, just as it is difficult to generalize for the USA. However, some of what I see in the US are a fair amount of dependence on individual states - and then differences in that response among those states depending on how hard the virus has hit - as well as some more general politics. For example, in my part of TX, I saw things initially taken fairly seriously but a quicker "relaxation" when it seemed like the greater New York area was harder hit. That has been followed by a much strong surge of virus in TX, though not (yet or hopefully) at the peaks seen by NYC.

In that US response, I see a fair amount of regionalism / state differences[*]. I'm curious to what extent that is also true between different Canadian provinces, particularly since I've perceived more regionalism/differences on other topics in my Canadian travels.
[*] It is a bit hard to generalize since even throughout the US, you'll see some of every attitude in all the states.

Happy Feet

There is definitely regional differences and the response has been controlled at the provincial level but all the provinces have basically signed on to the national strategy that has come from WHO recommendations. The differences in response are more to do with opening/closing phases dependent on when provinces hit safe/dangerous target levels but I think, behind the scenes, there has been a lot of cross checking and coordination.

We have covidiots here too but there is a greater social pressure to toe the line for the good of all. For example, Albertans really hate Trudeau and are very conservative in nature (the current Fed Gov is liberal) but follow the strategy regardless. In general we did not turn it into a political issue. If anything, we politicized it by creating an intense sense of national pride in coming together as Canadians and supporting each other.

Because we (as a nation) quickly accepted reality and the WHO guidelines and got on with doing what was needed to combat the issue I don't think I could emphasize how bizarre the US situation looks from the outside. Still arguing if it's real or a hoax, how serious it is, whether it will magically disappear or even primary stuff like how viruses are transmitted- its like re inventing the wheel instead of driving the car to safety.

indyfabz

Interesting question and answer. While I have spent a few nights in Canada here and there, in both the west (AD and B.C.) and more easterly (ONT and P.Q., but does Niagara Falls really count? ), it has not been enough to gauge varying attitudes of people in different parts of the country.

Thanks, guys.

fourfa

Just a heads up, there's a lot of useful info in this map (the default output of the Johns Hopkins tracker if I had to guess) but also some (probably unintentionally) misleading info. All Canadian cases in this visualization are grouped into one dot per province, placed in some fictional geographic midpoint. All US cases are per-county, which is a much much smaller unit. Imagine instead that all the US cases were per-state and lumped into an arbitrary point in space - it would look quite different. Mexico looks to be per-state, the Caribbean is per-country; perhaps this is how the info is available but as a visualization it's problematic.

If we compare to the general Canadian population-density map:

We can immediately see that the case visualization is misleading.

Please do not misinterpret me, Canada is by many measures doing a substantially better job than the US. For instance 24 deaths per 100k people, vs 40 in the US (though also 8.1% case-fatality rate vs US 4.4% according to https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality on today's date).

I fully support the point of your post - if I was in Canada right now I wouldn't dream of coming to the US. But it's possible that you're more inside the bubble than you might think from the map you shared. Please do be careful!

balto charlie

I just want to thank all of you for such a civilized conversation on this topic. COVID information changes constantly and it is good to read about different areas. I will say I was reading a similar conversation on CGOAB and it turned into a *****-show.

In the Mid-Atlantic region of the eastern U.S., things are tame BUT we are starting to open up more. We shall see what happens but I will say many folks are respecting "wear a mask" and "social distancing".

I have been biking a lot but finding long distant rides difficult because of the bathrooms. My wife just bought a Lady J to pee standing, she is more freaked out than I am. Food, we bring our own, we stay away from rail to trails on the weekends, lots of gravel grinding as it is much more remote.

Again, thanks for the civility, we shall get through this.......eventually.
Regards all,
Charlie
PS Thinking about moving to Canada or New Zealand, y'all are looking good!

DropBarFan

Yes, helmet surface area is small...hi-viz shirt/jersey/vest makes more of a difference but a hi-viz helmet would seem to help a bit, esp for casual riders who don't wear other hi-viz gear. I hadn't thought about the UV helmet damage possibility. I wear a white helmet but since helmets have cooling slots & thick insulating foam, perhaps helmet color doesn't affect comfort very much in hot sunny conditions.

Happy Feet

The graphic isn't misleading. It just demonstrates the inconsistency between two neigbouring countries dealing with the same pandemic. Today in BC we had 18 new cases and 3 deaths from Covid. It would be difficult to create a graphic that illustrates that by municipality (your county equivalent) so they just use one small dot per province. The US is adding 50,000+ cases a day now. In total Canada has 8700 deaths compared to 134,000+. The map has to be simplified on the Canadian side to be able to show any sort of comparison. That should alarm you, not be a tangent to debate.

I work in front line health care in one of the largest Long Term Care Facilities in Western Canada where I also serve as the senior F/A attendant, member of the JOHS (joint occupational health and safety committee) and as a worker rep for the Emergency Covid Response Team. There we receive information and mandates from the Provincial and Regional health authorities and translate them into policy for our facility. So far, thankfully, we have kept the virus out of our campus that has 700 residents and 600 staff. Statistically, that's amazing. It calls for a lot of luck and individual sacrifice like wearing masks and goggles 8 hours a day, changing clothes before and after shifts, no outside food, no family visitation, no large group activities or entertainment. The bubble I have lived almost exclusively in for the last four months is the ever evolving best practice medical model to prevent the spread of Covid 19.

Please, stop arguing whether the data is misleading in some sort of way or another and acknowledge the elephant on the room. How to deal with it is well known and has been demonstrated to work. The only thing up for debate is how to quickly put it into practice.

Tourist in MSN

Some countries have a population that has a high level of trust in science and most people trust trained experts for their expertise. It sounds like Canada is such a country.

And in USA at times it appears that there is a war on science and expertise. And right wing media that many rely on for their "information and opinions" does not help make anybody safer.

I am not a Canadian, but I thank you for your hard work and sacrifice during these difficult times. I spent over five weeks in Canada last summer on my bike tour and had a great time.