tomato coupe

It’s more difficult/expensive to mold the hooks on carbon rims than it is to mold hookless.

WhyFi

Are you forgetting that you were the one to initially respond to my post and not the other way around?

tomato coupe

What difference does it make? Again, I was very clear in what I wrote:

I have not disparaged tubeless tires in any way. Tubeless tire/wheel incompatibility is a known problem in the industry. Why are you so butt-hurt about this?

ThermionicScott 

If anything, the company has always struck me as very cautious about tubeless, with the implication something should work if they explicitly said so. They were wary about the whole concept at first, went into details about rim/tire fit (and adding extra rim tape if needed) when they started giving the approval for tires to be used tubeless, and it doesn't seem like that long ago they even started talking about hookless rims in a positive light. Was that even before 2019? How time flies...

eduskator

I wouldn't call it ''a mess''. It's more hassle for sure, but saying it's a mess would be a stretch IMO. I stick with my wheel manufacturer's recommended tires and I never had any problem whatsoever. Not a single puncture. I mount my TL tires with my bare hands using my thumbs. They can even be inflated without a compressor. I know by fact that some wheel & tire combo can result in horror stories, however.

Lots of important details are missing in the article - what pressure was the cyclist running, who mounted the tires, how old was the setup, etc.

mstateglfr 

Hi, OP here. I have tubeless wheels so contrary to your claim I did not start this thread to solely provide unsolicited *****ing, moaning, and complaining. This post of yours is really odd and the others in this thread come across as you whining about the fact that a very well established issue is being discussed.
This is a forum, discussions about current trends and tech tend to happen here.

Who knew that calling something a mess that is a mess would get a complaint that the mess should instead just be ignored instead of identified and discussed.

WhyFi

Because I'm not mistaking the context of the conversation.

This is your opinion. I do not share it.

You're mistaken. I'm openly wondering why people that hated Glee occasionally watched Glee just so that they could level more specific *****es about Glee. Same-same.

WhyFi

It's a post about an event that's a few years old within a niche (hookless) that has since seen solid work on standardization. Having lived with hookless for the last two years, it's not the mess you claim - it's actually be ******g awesome.

Polaris OBark

File a Friend of the Court brief and set everyone straight.

mstateglfr 

I dont claim hookless to be 'the mess'. 'The mess' refers to the compatibility restrictions and issues between various rim brands and tire brands. Some combinations work perfectly. Some combinations are terribly loose. Some combinations are terribly tight. Some rims only allow a small portion of tires to be used.
That is 'the mess' I was referring to.

When I buy new tires for my vehicle, I dont have to check with Honda to see what tires they allow on a Pilot's wheels. There is no list that approves Michelin and Bridgestone, but does not approve Continental or Yokohama. I buy tires in the size I need and they fit.
That is an example that is not equal in all ways, I understand, but it is only meant to highlight a tire process which is fully worked out and not a mess.

Bald Paul

Try mounting a set of Continental GP5000 tubeless on a pair of Boyd carbon wheels with just your hands. Go ahead. I dare ya.
It's so bad that Boyd even tells you NOT to attempt it, because you may damage the rim.

The bike industry really does need to set some standards when it comes to tubeless tires and rims. Decide on a tolerance and design, and then every manufacturer sticks to it.
Imagine if automobile wheels and tires all had different standards.

Bald Paul

"The suit says the crash caused Little a torn hamstring, bruising, abrasions and permanent scarring, disfigurement and discoloration." I don't think the "suck it up" defense would hold up well.

WhyFi

Again, that it's a mess is your opinion. Out of several wheels and more than a dozen varieties of tire, I haven't experienced this mess. Several years back, I had one tire/wheel combination that had a super tight bead lock; while frustrating at the time, it was an opportunity for me to learn and hone tire removal skills and nothing has been remotely challenging since (FWIW, no hand tools have ever been necessary for install, and I've never used anything more other than a tire lever for removal). In my experience, things have only gotten better and easier since.

In terms of compatibility restrictions, specifically hookless, that's a big shoulder shrug from me. I went in eyes wide open, knowing that I'd only be able to choose from the newest, best tires on the market. Woe is me.

WhyFi

They have.

Polaris OBark

In fact, they have a vast array of standards.

phrantic09

No, I wouldn’t try to mount that tire on anything because
1- it’s not hookless compatible
2- it’s known for being super difficult to mount

I bet if you got your hands on a TR you’d have a different experience

phrantic09

I know… it’s so awful using the newest tech. Never having flats sucks too!!!

merlinextraligh

definitionally a pull or a strain of a muscle is a tear. They heal with R.I.C.E. ( rest ice compression elevation). Torn hamstrings heal themselves. and yes, road rash( particularly if you don’t use tagaderm) results in permanent scarring and discoloration.

A good plaintiff’s lawyer is going to make an injury claim sound as bad as possible. If you can’t do any better than the description in the complaint, which essentially describes a pulled muscle and a boo boo, I doubt you have much.
Reading between the lines, It definitely sounds like an injury most of all of us have suffered, and many of us got a new wheel, a free lap, and got back in the race.

I realize that the plaintiff’s road rash would be a legally cognizable injury, I’m just saying I wouldn’t bother with a lawsuit, and it will be interesting if a jury ultimately gives him any substantial compensation.

mstateglfr 

You seem to really think that since you havent had issues, there is no overall issue. That makes no sense.

I genuinely dont know how the broad scope of road tubeless compatibility could be seen as streamlined and orderly. People literally cant use a bunch of tires for their wheels, yet the road tubeless market isnt a mess? Come on.
Giant put out a PDF to show what tires they had tested that passed and failed for their rim design. People with those tires had to reference a PDF just to know what tires they could use- https://dk8nafk1kle6o.cloudfront.net/..._Tire_Test.pdf
Enve has a list for each rim. Their SES AR series can only handle 8 tires in 32mm width. Their Foundation wheels(so 45 and 65) can only handle 7 tires in 32mm width. Apparently the Michelin Power Road TLR 32mm can go on an SES AR rim but not a Foundation series rim. 7 tires are approved. Thats all that can even be mounted on wheels that cost $1800. And keep in mind, I used 32mm since a wider tire is typically run at a lower pressure so there is less chance of blowoff issue on hookless.

How is that not a mess? It definitely isnt elegant.



It appears me using the term 'mess' has really cause a mess in this thread. Allow me to remove that term from my commentary. Lets instead say that the industry is in disorder when it comes to tubeless road wheel and tire compatibility. We could use disarray if you prefer that.
Either way, it certainly isnt on the same page and all in lock-step.
I do agree with you that it has gotten better. That shows there has been an issue. You seem to think it is no longer an issue and I recognize that while it is better than it was, there is still a lot of room to improve.

cxwrench

I completely agree with you. The state of the industry and compatibility is a mess. Damaging a tire on the road is a mess. Changing a tire in the shop can be a mess. I am an extremely experieced team and shop mechanic, I used road tubeless from about '10-'13. Had a cut tire on my 50th b-day ride and it was such a mess that I changed back to tubes as soon as I got home that day. It's still the only way to go for mtn though. As much as I hate it on the road I love it for mtb.

genejockey 

This is America. Are you new here?

chaadster

The lawsuit is frivolous, IMO.

it is the job of the rim to retain the tire, not for the tire to adhere itself to the rim, and absent any suggestion from Compass that it’s tire’s should work on a rim with no tire retention mechanism, that Little did any “research” to determine it was ok to mount the Compass on this unknown rim which may or may not have had a rim bead lock feature, at some unknown pressure is laughable.

Certainly the issue is the rim, and Little’s failure to understand elements of design and manufacture when pairing products not designed to work together.

Psimet2001 

Reminds me of arguments 15 years ago about where the state of tech was for carbon clinchers and whether or not they were safe to use in hilly areas. So many people claiming "They're fine" for whatever reason they thought. The industry shrugging and pointing to wild all encompassing disclaimers. Me having to deal with situations like a customer who delaminated a brake track (ENVE rim) in France because he was scared and drug his brakes down every descent the whole way (had blisters on his hands from the hoods when he returned). Calling ENVE and them just sending a new rim and moving on. Hell we even had one or 2 rims that ended up cooked (no hook separation) during that era when the industry was just learning how to use High Tg resins.

I know everyone wants to roll around on sweet gear and they all want to think that because some of these companies "seem" large that they have done exhaustive testing and have really tight controls over every aspect of the product but quite frankly that isn't the case. The product life cycle is too short. Most all manufacturing is contract manufacturing and not done in house. etc

I won't throw tubeless road out with the bath water *but* it's really a poor application of the tech. The hoops I see the industry jumping through in order to develop the tech and address all these issues that exist everywhere along the margins always makes me step back and go, "don't have that problem with tubes". That ship has sailed though. For some of you it's a technological improvement (less flats). For the overwhelming majority of you it's simply something cool that you think you want to try because everyone else is doing it.

Hookless - Really dumb. Any proclaimed benefit is really marketing speak. The benefits are 100% on the manufacturing side.

The closest analogy I can think of is "lawyer lips". With hookless in this example this is like having manufacturers saying they don't want to put Lawyer lips(hooks) on anymore. They sell it by saying "the fork will be lighter and tighter tolerances which will allow the hub to fit into it better and have a more advantageous profile". Can forks run without lips? Yes...if everyone from the skewer manufacturer to the hub guys all make their stuff right and the rider knows how to appropriately close the skewer. Guess what though - even when the manufacturers get it right there will still be users that mess it up. We had to put the lips on because of that. In the hookless case we don't even have all the manufacturers who can make the parts right yet.

Hookless is truly an answer to a problem we don't currently have. Just like tubeless at road pressures - it's just not needed.

Troul 

until a lot of judges, politicians, & other government individuals pick up road bicycling, the likelihood of a near future standard being set just isn't something I see happening. A lot more youths with strong-armed parents might need to become victims of these tires blowing off causing injury before something big causes a shift in the bicycle industry. If anything, tubeless might go away if it is deemed an unsafe for public use.

Psimet2001 

Certainly it is not the rim. The tire changed enough under use/pressure to no longer conform to the standards needed to retain it.

The reality is every high performance tire will. The things we like in high performance tires are the same qualities that make them really bad for use in a hookless scenario.

No worry though - all the tire guys will start making hard rocks they will call tires that won't more under pressure. That'll be great.

The reality that proves it was the tire is that the tire in question "disappeared". If measured I am sure it wasn't in spec. Then again - so what. I have had brand new high quality tubeless tires blow off the rim on a brand new setup before. It's the tire.