Aardwolf

Hiya Folks,
I've been thinking about trying some frame painting, did lots of research, had a quick look for a suitable cheap frame.
Then talked myself out of it, until I find the right frame.

Apparently the current best method is spray painting with good paint and all the right equipment, probably involving horrible chemicals.
Or there's a local paint shop run by an ex Holdsworth guy will do a basic original paint job for £175

But I'm thinking of an old frame - 1950s probably - and I'm wondering how they did the painting originally.
Was spray painting a thing in the 50s, or did they just know how to use a brush really really well ?

To make this slightly more interesting here's a 1953 Holdsworth Whirlwind (with a modern paint job):

Kilroy1988 

They were definitely spray painted in a paint booth with air compressor paint guns. This technique dates back to the 1880s and almost all industrial painting by the turn of the century would have been done this way. The example you posted that was sold recently by Richard Hoddinott is a fine example of what an original paint job would have looked like at the time.

-Gregory

BFisher

There's video out there of, I think, the Raleigh factory where a worker is hand dipping frames in a vat of lacquer.

Pretty sure some Euro brands used a stick during the bike boom. Some Italians seemed to have perfected the use of quick-release paint.

Aardwolf

Thanks for that, I had no idea spray painting went that far back.
Looks like I've got to investigate spray painting some more then, but I'm not sure I've got the room.

How would they have painted the head tube ?
I don't see how you would mask that for spraying.

Velo Mule

Depending upon how motivated you are you could even paint the frame in the bathroom if you have a way to hang the frame. Get a big drop cloth and tape it to the walls and of course over the bathtub. Assuming you have a bathtub or a larger shower. I would also remove the visible part of the ventilation fan so that the paint doesn't stick to it but use the fan while painting.

I've painted in my basement because it was too cold outside. I haven't tried the bathroom yet. That may not go well with my wife and I don't want to push it. I already wash bike parts in the kitchen sink.

Masking is done with masking tape they make some specialty tapes that are thin so that it can be shaped to contours and nowadays you can get a paintable mask.

The lug lining was done with a brush way back, but nowadays, there are lower skilled alternatives. Like paint pens and I forgot what it is called but is a cup with a little tiny brass straw.

I like box lining and that is often down with a Bugler paint roller or a similar type of device.

We have several members here that have painted their frames and fenders with a brush and got excellent results.

This may be more than you asked for but if you still want to paint your frame on your own, you have choices. Then if you are still leaning that way, you will be asking about paint and there will be as many different answers as there are members. You don't need a spray gun buy way, you can get excellent results from a can.

thinktubes 

In the mid-1970s, I got a tour of the Schwinn Factory in Chicago. The whole place had a haze of spray paint in the air.

JackJohn

fluid writer pen?

Aardwolf

The painting in the bathroom is a good idea - I'm in a flat with an internal bathroom so it has an extractor fan and it wouldn't depend on the British weather.
I think I was hoping that they painted with brushes back in the 50's and got decent results (with a lot of skill) as that sounds a lot easier than spray painting which I've never tried.

The upside is I could try brush painting and get it wrong a few times, it's only my time and some paint that I would be wasting - it's not going to damage the frame.

Velo Mule

@Aardwolf if you want to try brush painting and are more comfortable with it you can get excellent results. Check out Randy's brush painted bike Brush painted Torpedo .

There are pro's and con's for each technique. With brush painting there are less fumes and may be more suited to working in a flat (apartment). But it does take more time.

Aardwolf

Cheers, just finished reading that Torpado thread, exactly the sort of info I was after and he gets a really good result.
Think I'm going to have to try brush painting and see how it works out.

merziac

The Holdsworth guy should be able to regale of when the Brits baked enamel on depending how old he is.

He probably didn't ever do it that way and I imagine that goes back to the hearth brazing days.

I don't really know, maybe they brushed it on then baked it to level and smooth it out then harden it?

What do I know.

I bet Dave Moulton would tell us, he may have it on his website.

Aardwolf

Here's the reference I found to repainting Holdsworths: https://k20cyclingclub.org/k20cyclin...holdsworth-531"David from ColourTech" is probably David Crowe "Head re-finisher" https://www.colour-tech.co.uk/about/
It looks like he knows how to paint a Holdsworth

63rickert

1950s? British? What is called "level and smooth it out" above is called thixotropicity in the trade. All half good paint is thixotropic to some extent. The most self-leveling paint ever to exist was based on lead carbonate. For small builders lead was the obvious and only way to go. Perfectly legal. Great colors with metal pigments.

OTOH if you have ever read Gregory Houston Bowden's history of Raleigh - he would know, it was the family business - by late 60s Raleigh was using powdercoat. Small runs, unpopular colors, better frames got wet paint but all that Bronze Green you remember was powder.

obrentharris 

Mercian still bakes on "stove" enamel. as does Argos. They spray on the paint then bake.
There may be other British shops using this technique also.

Does anyone here know where to purchase this type of enamel and the temperature at which it must bake?
Brent

merziac

Did they always spray it on?

No idea on the temp or where to get it, maybe reach out to them or the oldest paint supply you can find.

merziac

Tx, yeah, obviously spitballen, have a good friend that is a damn good painter that has explained some of this before but I have never done any hands on as he doesn't paint much any more for the cost and hassle of trying to do a really good job.

gugie 

Maybe just contact Argos?

63rickert

I do not know what Mercian and Argos are using currently. Paint industry has changed enormously in recent years. Twenty or seventy years ago I could give you some idea how it worked. Paint in England divided hard between DIY (do it yourself) paint and trade paint. Trade paint was sold to painters with union cards and to trade accounts. It was good and it was expensive. There were far fewer niche products for commercial/industrial use because the trade paint worked for most everything. Oh, we are talking oil based paint here. In earlier years it would be lead. All available US paint would be classified as DIY. Best paint of the past as Martin Senour, Kurfees, Jewel Colorizer, Benjamin Moore Impervo would be a large step towards English trade gloss but still closer to DIY grade. Auto body painters in US have good quality product if you know which is suitable for your project.

My go-to high gloss enamel for some years has been Holandlac Brilliant as imported and distributed by Fine Paints of Europe. Currently $52.00 for half a liter. Right now they only have that in package White, no mixing bases. The sanctions and the war and the drought have the chemical industry along the Rhine in chaos. Hard to know if that industrial base will ever return. I will say that Rustoleum is not bad since they are again allowed to use zinc carbonate. It is not so good as the wholly unavailable (as it should be) lead carbonate, but it is fairly thixotropic and does prevent rust.

A stove for stove baked enamel could be anything. A warm and not so drafty closet near the boiler would work. Some painters and builders did build stoves for the purpose. Not too hot. The paint should dry, not boil. Paint dries harder when it dries faster. The heat makes the paint flow, such thixotropic qualities as it has will be best when it dries warm. And here I have to say that American paint goes on way thick, standard is 2.5 too 3 mils. Make that dry too fast you will have surface drying and the paint underneath will not be right even if your stove forces it to dry. Old English trade gloss would be at 1 mill or even less straight from the vat. (You brought your own bucket, the store filled it from the vat. No colors, tint your own.) Rustoleum should be thinned if you want good results. The Hollandlac goes on fairly thin. always needs at least a bit of thinner, I'd thin it more for a bike.

Round surfaces like frame tubes are really easy to brush paint. If you are used to working with spray that is better but brush is fine. Problem is always a bike frame has lots of odd corners. There is a reason the chrome is never as good behind the BB. If you want good results you are using lots of fine abrasives. Spray will let you get away with a lot less of that. It takes time and patience and do-overs. A lot comes down to technique and talent. A very good brush hand will get the job done as quick as an average spray mechanic. Anyone who will spend the time can get it done.

obrentharris 

@63rickert thanks for the detailed explanation!

I've painted a few frames with modern 2-part paints, hanging the frame in a large bike box attached by a duct to a small space heater. My target temperature was 120°f. It sounds like that might work for enamel also.

Thanks again!
Brent

Mad Honk 

I used an air brush recently for a touch up on a Raleigh Pro and found that the only paint available here in Indiana was polyurethane based. A big pain to use including special reducer and finding the right mix for the color. Even with a regulator and spray consistency the paint was hard to manage and took three passes to get the finish correct. Then it needed a special clear coat to get the proper sheen after the initial paint coat. I am sticking to powder coating from now on. It is way too easy to give the frame to a shop that does it well and gets great results. I have resolved to not use an air brush to paint again after this experience. Smiles, MH

Velo Mule

Yes, thanks. That's it. A Kemper Fluid Writer pen. Way better than the thicker lines that I got from a paint pen. Perhaps the paint pen that I purchased was only a fine point. Or maybe I needed a more delicate touch.

@Aardwold , if you are going to do lug lining the Fluid Writer works great. You could also use a paint pen, but be sure to get ultra thin or extra fine.

Doug Fattic 

Well I hardly know what to say. I have been professional painting frames with polyurethane enamel (Dupont Imron and later House of Kolor) since 1976 here in Michigan. When I was learning to build frames at Ellis Briggs in Shipley West Yorkshire in 1975, I also saw the whole process of them painting with stove enamel. This was paint they sprayed with spray guns in a spray booth and then placed in big ovens to bake hard. I don't remember the temperature but it was something like 175º F. While I didn't try my hand at painting when I when I was in Yorkshire, I saw how everything was done including masking and 2nd colors and double box lining and applying decals. It was an outstanding learning experience. I remember that some of the more glamorous paint came from Italy. I also hearth brazed my 1st frame but Andrew the journeyman builder thought hearth brazing and then cleaning the shorelines with an oxyacetylene torch didn't make any sense so we just skipped the hearth brazing and did it all with an O/A torch. Now I use propane because it makes a lot more sense. I've got all the right equipment to paint too. Many of my framebuilding class students like to help me paint their frames.

63rickert

The other readily US available paint that is really good is OneShot as used by sign painters. Commonly used for lining and lettering, perfectly good for doing the whole frame. Everybody flinches at the price but look at it from two steps back and why not? Frames don't use gallons of paint.

Phosphatizing/bonderizing is still good prep. It is an extra step and you will have to buy enough for lots of frames. Incredibly easy to do, works every time.

Of course catalytic coatings are superior. Those willing to use those get respect.

175 F. sounds about right. In a kitchen that would be a low warm oven. If using an impromptu oven with less than perfect verified even heat better to err on the low side. The paint will be dry enough to sand out and recoat soon enough.

repechage

things are different in the UK.
may not be able to get that paint in the USA and for sure not in California.

jdawginsc 

Hahahaha.