badger1

Cheers! I know about Whistlepig; I'll have to look up the others.

Just getting into some of the small-label brands that are starting to make a name up here. Barnburner and Collingwood are both nice -- and reasonable. A particularly good one is Signal Hill.

badger1

... and with that, page 16.

CryoLion

Yes I find rim brakes cheaper

BBB_Adrift

1997. Hardly vintage, but clearly not first flush of youth either. Lots of chromed bits to drool upon.

Rolla

I'd like to try that one. Pennsylvania grows a LOT of rye, so they ought to know how to make it!

elcruxio

But you'd most likely be faster down a MTB trail with an modern enduro or DH bike as those are more forgiving of bumps, have more traction etc.

Ah, but the point isn't really about going over the bars or losing traction. The point is how easily, quickly and accurately you can use your brakes below those thresholds. Having to use less finger force means that you can modulate the clamping force more accurately and more quickly than you could if you had to use more finger force. Also the benefit of hydraulic brakes is low friction in the lines, which further decreases the force requirement. Less squish or give in the system also gives more accurate lever feel and feedback. Even with compressionless housings the cables and housings stretch and compress some, the brake arms flex some and the rubber pads flex some all compounding to more give at the lever. With hydraulic brakes you only really have the hose expanding and perhaps some miniscule amount of seal flex. However it's still far less give than with cable actuated brakes, causing some hydro levers to have a rock hard lever feel to them.

That goes directly against my experience. Mainly because the brakes I have aren't touchy. Hydraulics usually aren't. Powerful yes, touchy no.
Cable brakes is a different story and I've lost traction with those a bunch of times resulting in some nasty falls.
With these new brakes I can reach the limit of traction on snow and ice easily and when I hit that spot of losing traction I can be off the brake immediately just enough so that I'm still braking but still having traction. I actually started using my front brake significantly more now that I can fit in some front wheel deceleration between rocks in rock gardens. I could do that with the previous setup but was straining. Now it's easy.


But it does take more force for different brakes. The differences are huge. I've used mechanical disc brakes with 203mm rotors and V-brakes with compressionless housings and all that, but they both require significantly more force to get the same amount of brake power than any higher than mid tier Shimano hydro brake with even 160mm rotors.
Paul components are probably the best cable actuated stuff there is, but in this case it's not about component quality. Cable actuated just can't get the same performance a hydraulic system can. And if you play around with the flow rates and put in some servo wave like I did, the difference is night and day.

Example: My road bike has Shimano GRX brakes and 160mm rotors. My touring bike has Shimano Sora levers with TRP Spyres, compressionless full length housings and 160mm rotors. Both have the same compound brake pads. With the touring bike I realistically need two fingers in the drops to get maximum braking and even then I'm tempted to use a third. And all the while I'm worried something's going to give because of the pull on the lever being so great. With the GRX equipped road bike I don't really even need the one. Obviously I need one, but I don't need to use a fraction of the force with the one finger I need with the touring bike with TWO fingers.
Before the GRX I couldn't really understand how people with road bikes were launching themselves over the bars, because for me (and my weight) that was quite inconceivable. But with the GRX I now understand. With great power comes great responsibility etc...

The analogy works if instead of one wave of the stick (ie. coming to a halt) you consider constant waving about of the stick (riding down singletrack with constant small decelerations). I've seen downhill race videos where they show the brake telemetry and the riders are constantly pumping the brakes even when you'd think they're going flat out. That's where having more power starts to matter. More force means a less accurate slower movement which inevitably also results in more fatigue. So, waving a light stick compared to waving a heavy stick.

There have been some truly bad hydraulic brakes made over the years (mostly SRAM and Avid stuff), but also brakes that almost never disappoint (Magura) and brakes which have only somewhat recently become top tier (Shimano). Unfortunately in hydraulic systems brand and tier level matters quite at bit whereas in cable actuated stuff not so much.

That's true. For me rim brakes aren't more dangerous, certain cold conditions nonwithstanding, but rather slower because of the reasons mentioned above. But admittedly on road in sunny weather there probably isn't a difference in speed.

The reason I started reading the thread was because I was at the moment bored with nothing better to do. I was however somewhat surprised that so many were actually swapping their bike out. And since this kinda evolved (or devolved) into a tech thread, well sign me up.

PeteHski

I find it interesting how you see this from a different perspective. The only people I can see here being called out by "disc fans" are a minority of rim brake diehards (there are at least a handful of them actively posting in this thread) who are still insisting that disc brakes are complete rubbish and listing pages of self-justification for why they strongly believe that rim brakes are a "superior" choice. Their reasoning borders on the insane at times. So it's hardly surprising that more people are bound to point this out and maybe that makes them look like "disc fans".

These "rim diehards" are the ones who ALWAYS derail brake threads with their ridiculous line of reasoning.

PeteHski

Here we go. Let's make up some fictional poster(s) again who live entirely in your insecure mind.

PeteHski

Do they? Can you quote one please?

PeteHski

This ^ is spot on. My experience is in motorsport engineering (F1, BTCC, WRC) and we did quite a lot of work with brake manufacturers in an effort to improve brake modulation and feel. Reducing redundant flexibility throughout the braking system was a key part of this. e.g. stiffer brake calipers, stiffer pedal installation, reduced hose expansion etc. all contribute to an improved brake feel. A cable operated brake (rom or disc type) is not a great starting point in this respect.

So it was no surprise for me to find that I much preferred hydraulic disc brakes on mountain bikes (no-brainer there) and I do now prefer them on road bikes, even if it is generally a less critical application. Although I did a few epic Alpine descents last summer and disc brakes were a godsend there. In motorsport we also work extensively with carbon fibre components and one thing carbon does not tolerate very well is heat. So the idea of carbon wheel rims, combined with rim-brakes for alpine descending does not appeal.

PeteHski

Your "opinions" regarding the objective performance of disc brakes are easily refuted by pretty much anyone who rides a bike with good hydraulic disc brakes.

smd4

Now you’re refuting my opinions? Wow! You’re good! And since you apparently haven’t read what I wrote, I only said disc performance was good—at least in wet and muddy conditions.

My dual pivots provide more than enough braking performance than I need. Perhaps in your infinite wisdom you can refute that too?

Miele Man

I'm going to keep a couple of my old rim brake bicycles because they work well and meet/suit my needs/wants. That being said, I'm going to gather up all the other bikes and parts and hopefully sell them as a lot for a quick sale.

I do like the V-brakes I put on my winter MTB with a dropbar, becasue they stop much faster/sooner than me cantilever brakes ever did on that bike even though the cantilever brakes were set up properly.

If I was buying a new bike I might consider disc brakes because they are out of the way of paniers and you can ride a warped out of true wheel with a disc brake and still have great braking.

Cheers

PeteHski

Staw man specialist I see. Anyway let's remind everyone of your glorious opinions again. The ones that derailed this thread initially:-

We can firstly ignore the ugly, inelegant comments as they are worthless outside of your mind (even when stated as fact). I will presume they are just borne out of your obvious prejudice against disc brakes. Do disc brakes become more aesthetically attractive to you on motorbikes and cars?

Are disc brakes really "heavy"? They are generally a little heavier than rim-brakes (typically in the order of 500g), but does it make any real-world difference for anyone other than an elite competitive hill climber? I don't think so, but it is a minor plus point for rim-brakes.

Are discs a PITA to deal with in terms of maintenance and installation? In general no. Many people have already refuted this opinion. It doesn't warrant much discussion at this point.

Do discs have poor modulation with ON/OFF braking? Definitely NOT inherently. On the contrary it's one of their major pro points. Your limited personal experience here is worthless to anyone else. Again many people would refute your opinion.

No argument about discs working better in wet conditions.

Potential benefits to you personally? Maybe none, I wouldn't know where/how you ride. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe anyone has tried to argue that you need to buy a disc bike?

Your final comment suggests that you think rim brakes will make a future return on cutting edge bikes? I think this is about as likely as a return to friction downtube shifters.

cyccommute 

Where have you been for the last 20 plus years? I, as an very experienced rider, have been regaled regularly about how my brakes are inadequate. Walk into any bike shop with a rim brake equipped bike and the tongue clucking starts about how your brakes are going to bring about your imminent demise. This whole thread is about trying to convince people that their choice of rim brake is totally inadequate. I’ve know lots of people who have “upgraded” from rim to disc because someone convinced them that their brakes were going to get them killed.

cyccommute 

I go fast enough, thank you very much. I’m not racing nor pushing for any kind of public speed record.

None of which is anything I experience in the braking systems I use…disc or rim. I don’t find that I need to use any excessive force at the levers to stop. If anything, the hydraulics I did use were awful at trying to actually control the bike. I had to think about how much lever pressure I was using to keep from having brakes that were far too grabby. They had the opposite of what I would call “modulation” or the ability to control how much or how little input was needed to get proper control. I’ve heard people refer to linear (and just about any other rim brake) as being “on/off” but the hydraulics I used were just that.

You say that but it is not something that I have experienced. Again, I have a bike with mechanical disc from and linear rear. I have people tell me that discs (of all varieties) takes less force than rim. It’s not something that I have ever experienced. Nor do I find any of the other brakes I have to be difficult to use or require excessive force to bring the bike to a stop.

Say what? You are claiming that the GRX is telepathic? Come on! With my touring bike I regularly use two fingers from the hoods and those are my pinky and ring finger…not exactly the strongest fingers on my hand. I seldom brake from the drops, nor do I need to. I’m not braking all the time in panic situations…something these discussions always seem to devolve to discussing…but even when I have had to, I don’t find the bike unresponsive.


Again, not racing. But hand fatigue because of excessive braking isn’t something that has ever been a problem while riding. I don’t drag my brakes and only use them in short bursts. Even on high speed and/or technical downhills, I use brakes moderately and have never had any kind of hand fatigue. It just doesn’t happen for me.

Yes, the brakes were Avid but, oddly, they were sold and reviewed as having excellent modulation…far better than any rim brake. The same claims are made today and I’ve ridden some of the others. Still not impressed. I just haven’t experienced anything that is vastly superior or even moderately superior for that matter.

Those reasons for a rim brake bike being slower are your own reasons. I don’t find myself slowing down just because I have rim brakes. The fastest I’ve ever gone on a single was on a rim brake equipped bike. And the fastest I’ve ever gone on a tandem was on a cantilever equipped one. Brake type doesn’t determine how fast I go. I do a lot of twisty downhills paved roads here in Colorado and have never done one with a disc equipped bike because I don’t own a disc road bike. That doesn’t stop me from going fast. Brakes are not a consideration to how fast I go because I’m confident in my brakes and my ability to use them.

cyccommute 

Since this is in your bailiwick maybe I can get a definition of what you mean by “modulation”. Everyone throws the term “superior modulation” around because they heard it or read it in some ad copy but can not define what they mean by it. What do you define “modulation” as? What should someone feel while riding the bike that would be described as “superior modulation”?

I’m not having a go at you but am really curious as to what this vaulted superiority should feel like since I really haven’t experienced it.

Koyote

"Many people are saying..."

big john

Really? I've never heard anything like this. Never heard anyone say my rim brakes are inadequate. In the 20 years from 2000-2019 I did around 2000 group rides. The number of bikes with discs has grown over that time but I never heard anyone say anything like that.

I do my own work so I never take my bikes into a shop so I missed the tongue clucking there. And I don't think I know anyone so weak-minded that they would go buy a new bike because someone convinced them their brakes were "going to get them killed". Nor do I know anyone so full of crap they would say such a thing.

mstateglfr 

I changed my gravel frame from canti to disc because I wanted to have disc brakes.
Admittedly, I wanted to try out a tapered carbon fork too, but that now comes with disc brakes as basically a necessary bundle for any gravel frames.

Anyways, yeah I swapped out a bike to get disc brakes.
The result- after over 3 years of riding it...meh, they are fine. Not revolutionary and not bad. I stopped fine on my other brakes and I stop fine with these brakes. I like the hood shape of my current brake levers more and that is honestly the best part about the switch. The rear disc squeal that comes and goes is the lamest part about the switch.
I certainly dont regret the switch, to be clear.

Koyote

+1.

The last time my steel-framed rim-braked road bike was in a shop, the mechanic took it for a test ride and declared, "Nothing wrong with that bike! It'll easily be good for another 20 years."

elcruxio

I also do not ride an enduro or DH bike. It was meant to be an example of what the effect of better gear could be. But those bikes have downsides as we all know they climb like dog... like total cr.... they climb really badly.

And yet the give or flex in the system is an inherent property of cable actuated brakes and even more so in rim brakes. It's there whether you experience it or not.

We have good conditions for testing traction right now. It's raining on hard ice so the slipperiest conditions one can experience. So I did some testing. Trying to do maximal braking with the front brake only I got to a point where the front wheel was reacting like ABS so slipping, having traction, slipping and getting traction in rapid succession. With weaker brake that usually takes some concious effort. Not with this time however. Anything but on/off.

I have studs, but naturally the traction they give on wet ice is severely limited.

Again, it's not about excessive force. It's about more or less effort. Only cantilevers require excessive force. But the less effort needed, the more accurate you can be (disclaimer, to a point. That point hasn't been reached yet though).

if we did a test of how much force at the lever is required for a certain amount of newtons of stopping power, hydro discs would win hands down. Too bad such a test is a bit difficult to conduct with a reasonable budget.


I see you stopped reading midway through the paragraph. How tiresome.

Let me spell it out. The mechanical brakes require two fingers worth of force to get max power out of. The hydro brake requires maybe half of one finger.

FYI, braking from the drops doesn't mean panic braking.

But while we're at it, I have had trouble stopping the touring bike when towing a trailer. Larger discs would be nice but really I'd prefer hydro discs.


Man my hands and forearms have been shot after doing some long technical descents. But I also probably weigh a fair bit more than you do and as we know that has an effect. Our terrain is also exceedingly technical as we don't have trail management. It's not really allowed.

I also don't race but I do like to go fast when able.



Some avids were nice, but they've had more issues than successes.

The speed thing is of course far more relevant in mtb. Not as big of an effect on road especially in good conditions, mainly because on road one rarely needs to pulse brakes.

badger1

Always ride solo, so I can't speak to 'other cyclists' saying such things in real time, but I can speak to the shop thing. Been going to the same lbs for over 20 years; the shop is the local hub for the local racing crew -- road and mtb -- and many others. Head mechanic is one of that crew. I'm in there enough because I'm mechanically inept; when something needs doing beyond basic maintenance, the shop does it.

The shop always has the new(est) tech in, and is always talking it up. But ... I was never, not once, told that my rim brakes or any other stuff on my bike was inadequate/dangerous etc. simply because it was old(er) tech.

Sadly, that bike was stolen () three years ago, so I replaced it with a current version (full crabon fibré; hydraulic discs) of the same model. I like it fine, but I was just as happy with Old Bike.

Eric F 

You still don't get it.

SurferRosa

Yes:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/