mr_bill

Just a SWAG. I don’t thing there are any farmers on farmforums who are complaining about farmers driving on roads.

-mr. bill

livedarklions

Here's the situation I've gotten into a few times that illustrates the double standard. My interpretation of NH law is that I should take the lane at an intersection where a right turn is possible and I'm going straight. I take that to mean that I should be operating just as if I was driving at that intersection. If there's a red light, I will wait it out in the lane. I've had drivers behind me go nuts because I won't get out of their way to allow them to right turn on red. I'm not going to put myself to the right of the lane because I will then have to go through the intersection in the blind spot of the drivers behind the car behind me. I am literally causing exactly the same "delay" as I would if I was driving in that situation. No one ever goes nuts on a driver or even a motorcyclist in that situation.

I will head to the right immediately after the intersection, btw, so don't even go there. Cars going straight are likely not delayed by me at all.
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livedarklions

I think there's a fair number of drivers who use the fact they ride a little bit as cover for expressing extreme anti-cyclist attitudes (kind of like the converted dentist on Seinfeld). Being a farmer is too much of an investment to make for rhetorical effect.

burnthesheep

Being alive trumps courtesy. You don't own the lane, people try to squeeze past and hit you. That's how I got hit. A lower speed limit area with a center lane raised curbing and they tried to squeeze as I didn't own the lane in that area. If I owned it, I never would have been hit and they would have safely gone around when the center curbing ended.

Next up, leisure. Outside of actual transit to and from your work, driving a car to/from places is also leisure. Movies, golf, filling faces with high calorie restaurant food, going to set the credit card on fire at the mall, church even............leisure. Not mandatory. So the leisure argument with bikes is just more victim blaming.

LarrySellerz

Not trying to victim blame, I don't even have a drivers license. just think that getting in the way is the number one complaint cars have about us

noimagination

Other cars get in their way far, far, far more than bikes (in terms of both frequency and total time lost).

There are some people who are just jerks (or, are having a bad day for some reason), and drive that way. There is no satisfying that type of driver, whether you're on a bike or driving a car. Most others are just ignorant of how to drive around cyclists. IME, once bicycle density reaches a certain point, they get familiar with driving around bikes and problems are much reduced.

livedarklions

Cars don't have complaints. Drivers do. And just because they do doesn't mean they have any validity.

I find this hand-wringing of yours rather odd--you're the one who's told us why we should admire the jerkwad pedestrian-assaulting bike messenger in another thread, and you've been participating in a group ride that has a history of injuring bystanders. I don't think that puts you into a position to tell us what's likely causing hostility to cyclists.

Daniel4

Separated bike lanes would address this concern but bad drivers are opposed to those too.

Paul Barnard

For perspective, I have NEVER been involved in a bicyclist induced traffic jam. I am in auto induced traffic jams daily.

LarrySellerz

It doesn't really matter if their complaints have validity, if they hit us it doesn't matter what the law says. I just think we should try to stay out of their way, part of flowing through traffic in a smooth casual way (the vid I posted was not someone flowing casually) is minimizing the amount of braking cars have to do. I'll go into oncoming traffic to yield to a car trying to turn for instance. I don't think cyclists should be obligated to do stuff like that, im a trained professional, but yeah staying out the cars way is much more important for improving motorists-cyclist relations than following the rules of the road. For what its worth cars seem to like me, I get a greeting or an encouragement from drivers on like half of my rides.

livedarklions

Sorry, but if you're doing stuff like that, you aren't minimizing anything and I think that's a load of crap. If you're hitting the sides of cars with your hands, you're definitely getting in their way.

Trained professional?! Get real. That's not a profession and there's no training program, just the willingness to endanger bystanders.

The riders in the OP were in a lot less danger of being hit than the jerks in your beloved messenger jerkwad videos. It isn't a matter of if those guys are going to get hit, it's a matter of when.

And hitting pedestrians is not a joke.

livedarklions

Same, it used to be daily for me, but then I moved closer to the office.

mr_bill

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Is five weeks ago NEVER?

-mr. bill

toto34

They should pick a different road, srs. Otherwise, they are fine because there is no room to pass safe in that lane, even if they are single file.

One of the many reasons why people hate cyclists. You should know as a normal human not to block traffic like that. It is rude.

gpburdell

As discussed earlier, they're northbound on a five+ lane road with plenty of opportunity for cars to get by them.

Here's their location: https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8146...3920584,18.13z

What other road should they use to cross Peachtree Creek?

Northside Drive, Piedmont Rd, Cheshire Bridge, and Howell Mill are all similar roads. Lots of residential housing in the area so they could live nearby and be on their way to / from a cafe or somesuch.

toto34

Tell that to motorists. You know they don't think cycle centric. I think they are fine, but in the big picture it is a bit of a disruption that can be avoided, and I took the OP at his word they were blocking traffic. Turn lanes and right lanes get backed up easy in big cities.

The location you gave me looks to be a really busy thoroughfare. Not sure if the link is getting me to the right location, but Looks like they can go to Northside Drive. It is not far and there is a dedicated lane according to Google. Also, looks like there is an even closer crossing point at the nearby golf course.

Whether cyclist or driver, it's rude to block traffic even for convince, but heck maybe it is the only option, idk.

gpburdell

The location is the traffic light at Biscayne and Peachtree, facing northbound. I've been through there many times, same for the various other roads.

Northside drive is one lane each direction plus a turning lane, doesn't have a dedicated bike lane to my knowledge, and thus even less opportunity for cars to get past cyclists. The pathway next to it is swarmed with pedestrians, dogs, kids, and strollers on any given weekend day. Plus, Collier Rd is pretty tight and little opportunity for anyone to pass.

We also don't know if they're on their way to or leaving from homes in the surrounding residential neighborhoods.

Also worth noting that with GA's three-foot law, I'm not sure single file would've made any difference in the ability for cars to get by them.

The OP tells one side of the story -- and folks who aren't familiar with the area will naturally make assessments based on their own area where there may be plenty of alternatives to traveling on such a road.

I say there's another side to the story we don't know, and thus it's not realistic to make a true judgement call as to whether the two individuals should or shouldn't have been doing what they were doing.

livedarklions

The vast majority of people commenting in this thread are motorists. I am. I can say with no doubt that no one would comment on or even remember a similar "delay" if it had been caused by another driver. If I'm on a bicycle, I'm not avoiding convenient streets or positioning myself in a manner that I determine would compromise my safety just because it will cost a driver a few hypothetical seconds. As a driver, I know such delays are normal and frequent. In my experience as a motorist, these delays are almost always caused by other drivers.

Lanes get blocked by turning cars and other causes all the time. I don't have the right as a driver to veto these delays because they aren't "necessary". If you can't cope with that, don't drive in the city. This isn't a cyclist-centric perspective, it's a reasonable driver standard.

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noimagination

Hear, hear.

I truly don't understand the attitudes of some of the posters on this thread who consider themselves "cyclists" but who, evidently, think that cyclists should be cowering in the gutter and doing everything in their power to avoid "getting in the way" of motorists. I'm all for acting safely, courteously and legally while riding, but within those bounds I have just as much right to use the road as a driver. There was another lane to pass the cyclists shown in the original post. For the last time: ANY DELAY WAS CAUSED BY THE VOLUME OF OTHER MOTORISTS, NOT THE CYCLISTS.

toto34

It's reasonable but not the driver standard. That's not how they think. All signs still point they were too much of a hassle on a major stroad thing.

I think in general, I agree with every you said but the degree. Also, we don't need cope but coexisting on the roads, subs, and planes Google had alternatives, and I take OP at his word that they backed stuff up more than a tick or two.

Paul Barnard

As cyclists, we can't always comport ourselves with the wishes of motorists. To start with, many don't think we should be on the road at all. I have had "get on the sidewalk" shouted at me more than a few times. Many motorists think that it's okay for them to slow roll stops, but it's "blowing through" a stop when bicyclists do it.

We don't know how long they were on that road. It may have been the only way fro them to connect with more lightly traveled roads that they intended to use.

The OPs complaint was focused chiefly on them being side by side and secondarily on them running the traffic light. Singling up there would have done no good. The lane is so narrow, that for any motorist to pass them at a safe distance, the motorist would have had to have a clear left lane. Most motorist (and obviously some of our cyclists) are oblivious to this reality, so the optics of them riding single file would have been better, but at a degradation to their safety. Given that the most common reason provided when motorists strike cyclists is "I didn't see them," riding 2 abreast presents twice the visible surface area. So, more likely to steal the attention of a marginally engaged motorist. Them running the light was a favor to motorists behind them. No waiting for them to click in and come up to speed. Again, the optics are bad, but the reality is that it was better for motorists.

I take a very cooperative approach when I ride in traffic, and am always thinking about how I can blend most harmoniously with traffic. That said, I will NEVER sacrifice one ounce of safety in the name of improving optics for motorists. Number one is self preservation. Number two is cooperation. Scarcely a blip on the radar is the "driver standard" that you seem to be highly concerned about. Most of them are ignorant.

polyneux

I don't understand the philosophy of running the red lights though (I don't buy "because they do it I can do it.) I know its a slight divergence from topic but its come up a few times. I'm with the last poster in that I ride cooperatively with traffic not that I or they have some entitlement to the road that trumps the other. Stopping at red lights has lead to some of the most positive experiences with motorists I've had on a bike. "Nice bike" "hot out aint it" "want to hang on?" etc.

I bike often on a road that has lots of full-kit cyclists on it and I sometimes find myself annoyed when I, on a bike, stopped at a red light in a lane, get buzzed by a CYCLIST (or 10) who barely brakes and runs the red light. And in large groups you know the middle->back riders aren't 100% attending and are trusting the front so god forbid someone is taking their green light quickly and misses and runs into a whole pack of cyclists in the middle of an intersection on a red?

making

There is a very busy intersection I have to go through to get to the main side of town. The stop light that is the safest way to cross this crossroad (US31). R and L turn lanes, a car dealership, a very dangerous area and I almost always have to wait for a car to pull up on the small street I am crossing on because the light won't change. Every once in a while, probably one in 10 times I am heading over there, when the lights up and down road are just right, I pull up to my light and it is red. But I look in either direction and not see a single vehicle with about a mile of visibility. I see no reason to wait on a vehicle to get there and possibly run over me. I try to do the safest thing I can all the time.

Daniel4

Every traffic report describes either heavy volume congestion or collisions by automobiles. If there were any cyclist involved, he'd probably be dead on the road having been run over by a... car.

A couple of old surveys show that amongst what aggravated drivers the most, cyclist are way at the bottom of the list. Top irritants for drivers are other drivers.

livedarklions

As a motorist, I've learned to adapt to rules that require me to wait until it's safe to pass. I also am mature enough to know that I don't have a right to determine whether someone else's use is "road worthy". I'm not looking for alternate routes that are less convenient to me just to humor the attitudes of drivers with jerkwad tendencies. OP was explicit in describing the minimal effort he had to expend to get past these cyclists. He had to slow down and change lanes. I take him at his word and I say, as a MOTORIST, "big whoop".

The law sets the driver standard, not the attitudes of the most obnoxious and selfish drivers. If my riding habits offend them, it's not on me that they're ignorant or defiant of the legal rules they are supposed to follow with courtesy.

I have to tell you that you are not the ambassador from the land of drivers. We're all as aware of drivers' attitudes as you are. As a cyclist or a driver, I don't feel a need to humor or cower from nasty drivers. If they don't want to be patient, they should avoid that road themselves.