SoSmellyAir

Same here; all 3 of my bikes are 11 speed mechanical, but I am pretty sure the next one will be a 12 speed Di2. My only issue with Di2 is the currently vast cost differential, which affects not only the acquisition but also the potential need for component replacement.

Kontact 

And that force applied doesnt go away. As you move the shift lever to the next shift you have to meet the force applied already, then add the next bit of force.

Pick up a derailleur and push it from H to L. The force increases as you approach L.

Then push on any spring. Each new distance requires more force than the last. That's a normal spring rate.

Bah Humbug

Inarguably.

genejockey 

Tube amps are too expensive and finicky. Tube PREamps, OTOH, are the bees knees.

My old boss carefully researched both VHS and Betamax, BITD. He concluded that Betamax was much the better system and bought accordingly. If he hadn't lost his marbles and his house, he might still have it. And a handful of early 80s movies.

French press coffee is good stuff, but the device too hard to clean.

base2 

This is a rare omission from you. You forgot team "Meh."

While useful & flawless in operation I discovered there is no "there," there. Ho-hum & benign at best. Though the thread I started a while ago about my experience did illuminate the fact that electronic shifting has great utility for the handicapped or mobility impaired through arthritis or other condition. So, there is that.

On balance though, I whole heartedly agree: These are the good times. That anybody could afford a laissez-faire attitude such as mine towards a particular advancement ought to be all the evidence anybody could need.

Good post, BTW.

DangerousDanR

I should note that I really like my ancient EPS, but since it seems to be Super Record only now I am struggling with the price. Mostly just because I am real cheap. The price difference between mechanical Chorus/Record mix and Super Record EPS is over $2,000, and that puts us in Scotland for a few weeks, so if I do spring for a new bike it will probably be mechanical, even though it is not as good as the EPS.

And who knows, I may just go with Ekar on an aero road bike. Because I want to.

PeteHski

I've got plenty of mechanical watches, but I don't really equate those with shifting gear on a bike.

I do quite like the click, click action of SRAM 1x mechanical mtb trigger shifts, but floppy road brifters not so much, especially when shifting the front mech up. That is not a very nice mechanical feel to me. So I was happy to go electronic there.

Bah Humbug

Ekar does seem to have good road applications.

msu2001la

Agree. Pretending that Shimano or SRAM mechanical shifters are somehow the same as a luxury watch is hilarious.

It's the manual crank windows of the groupset world. They worked fine for years, though were mostly forgettable. The motors work better and the vast majority of people will happily move on without ever thinking about them again. It seems very likely that electronic shifting, like power windows, will soon just be standard on bikes, rather than marketed as a top-tier upgrade.

PeteHski

I like the look of Ekar i.e. 1x13 with some interesting cassette ranges. I almost built a road bike with it last year, but ended up buying a complete bike with SRAM Force AXS. Now I've got used to electronic shifters and no more cables I don't think I could go back. I wonder how long it will be before Ekar goes electronic? Some reviewers criticised it for having a bit of a clunky shift action, but everyone seemed to praise the brake feel.

Kontact 

A mechanical watch is hardly a luxury item. I wore a $30 Seiko 5 for years.

Mechanical shifting is an opportunity to interact directly with your bike, get feedback on how it is shifting and control the speed and force as appropriate. The amount of dexterity and force you have to pay is not significant. Certainly not enough to effect ride performance.

There is a joy in using well tuned mechanisms. I prefer making the effort to shift my sports car or bike mechanically, reset the date on my watch, use a chef's knife and keep it sharp, draw something with a pencil, polish a shoe.

Considering that no one I'll ever meet will win a race or set a KOM because they didn't have electric shifting - it is purely a luxury. I feel a bit sorry for all the people that apparently hate interacting with a modern mechanical bicycle. They work so well.


Downtube shifters are the crank windows of bikes.

PeteHski

Is it me, or does this sound like a load of patronising bs?

Kontact 

Or is it as "hilarious" as comparing a my bike hobby to my watch hobby?

You guys sound ridiculous talking about push button shifting. It's a bike. HTFU.

PeteHski

More patronising bs

Camilo

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Whipper snapper! A Real Curmudgeon uses a a stove top percolator. Not even an electric percolator.

GhostRider62

Yes, I am weak and need push button shifting.

My excuse is lame. On a cross country race, a pickup mirror hit my shoulder sending me into a corn field putting a dime sized chip in my shoulder. A dog bit me calf the next day and the day after about 200 miles and 26,000 feet into the day or night, two dogs took me down and torn my rotator cuff. Foolishly, I did the last 600km and 30,000 feet trying to ride with one arm. Shifting mechanical is hard for this pu$$y

Camilo

I have downtube indexed, mechanical brake/shifters and electronic AXS Etap. They're all fun and it's just silly to argue that one is more fun - overall, and in all circumstances. But I'll have to say, riding the downtube shifters is fun for me. That's all I'm saying, it's fun. None of them is more fun than others.

As for mechanical vs. electronic: The main reason other than tradition/curmudgeon-ness/simple preference to avoid electronic, I believe, is cost and to a lesser extent, weight. Both are objective and valid.

For me, while I love the AXS and won't ever get rid of it, when we're on the road in our travel trailer, far and wide in rural areas of the western US and Canada, I just feel more comfortable with a more generic mechanical system as far as being able to replace broken parts, finding wear items, and doing maintenance. The damn proprietary parts in the AXS system are a huge, but no only part of this. For example, a 9 or 10 speed bike with Sram or Shimano MTB, Road or hybrid drive train would have many acceptable replacement options for almost any part that could break while my AXS bikes would be tough to deal with while traveling. Not so much at home because (a) we have a place-specific shipping address for parts we would likely have to order and (b) we have substitute bikes to use in the mean time. I think tourers would have similar issues.

merlinextraligh

No doubt it derails the thread, but 6 pages in, not much to say that’s actually still on point.

if you read all my posts regarding car transmissions, I think I’ve been entirely consistent. A modern dual clutch automatic shifts faster; performs better, gets better gas mileage; has faster lap times, has lower maintenance. So objectively, it’s just better.

it’s not just the track. For regular on the road, it’s going to be more fuel efficient, last longer, and more pleasant to drive in traffic.

That said, I acknowledge on a subjective level, manuals can still be fun.

So taking it back to bikes, a vintage steel bike with downtube shifters can still be fun, but it’s not objectively superior by any performance metric.

GhostRider62

I take out a very fine old steel racing bike with expensive puffy tubulars once a year to make me appreciate my new rides. It has nostalgia and good memories. I usually do the ride without helmet. It all brings back memories. Objectively? That bike cannot hold a candle to my newer rides. Fun? Not really. There is zero joy reaching to the DT shiftr and 55/44 and 13-17 is a now a chore.

Camilo

The difference in feedback and control you get from mechanical shifting vs electronic is negligible Both shift quickly, both let you hear and feel how the shifting is working, maybe not through the hand, but by the way it actually shifts.

Agree. But with the caveat, almost everything I have in my collection of bikes, guitars, skis, etc, even my cars and house (which aren't ostentatious at all) is a "luxury" compared to cheaper alternatives which would, for me, function just as well. So it being a luxury is meaningless to most people, because most people have lot of stuff for which there's cheaper perfectly functional alternatives. The value is that - for whatever reason - it's more fun or satisfying than the alternative.

Hate? Aw come on. that's just silly to use the word hate. No one ever said they "hate" mechanical shifting. "Prefer" yes, "hate" no

This is just silly too, although I suspect you're using hyperbole for effect.

Crank windows = significant PITA time of effort. Electronic windows = no PITA or time of effort;
DT shifting= slight PITA, momentary time of effort, electronic shifting = no PITA, no time of effort

I might suggest that comparing hand pump (on the side of the road) vs CO2 might be a better comparison to crank windows vs electric windows?

Kontact 

More or less patronizing than the suggestion that people who don't prefer electric are cheap, uninformed or afraid of technology?

I don't care what you ride. Don't talk about what others ride like you all know better. Biking is a hobby. Period. You aren't winning the Hobby Award because you're doing it better.

Electric shifting is the lighted vanity mirror of bikes. It doesn't make you faster or better - but it does make things a little more pleasant and easy.

seypat

Great read!

Kontact 

I strongly disagree on front shifting. You can better control the timing and force with mechanical.

But most of the time both work seamlessly.

mschwett 

talk about patronizing! and a terrible metaphor. i'm not aware that the lighted vanity mirror in my car makes it more reliable, require less maintenance, lighter, or shift faster than a car without said mirror. that's my experience.

PeteHski

Is that what people are saying or did you just toss in a straw man?