Harold74

MY SITUATION

A) I'm gearing up for a wheel build and I've got some DT Pro-Lock nipples for that purpose: Pro Lock Technology

B) I like to tinker with my wheels and having spokes that are highly "truable" in the future appeals to me. You know, so long as spokes aren't coming unwound every other ride or whatever. I'm happy to re-true a couple of times a year.

C) This will be my first attempt at wheel building.

MY QUESTIONS

1) With the Pro Lock, is it correct that no additional spoke prep lube etc is reqiured?

2) Because the Pro Lock hardens eventually, is it important that I finish a wheel build in the same session in which I start it? I'd prefer to take my time and do it over multiple sessions if possible.

3) The website for the product indicates that the spokes can be trued post-build with minimal impact the adhesive. Firstly, I should hope that's the case. Can anyone comment on the "truability" of Pro Lock nipples post build?

4) I'm tempted to scrap the Pro Lock nipples and instead just get some ordinary ones and use ordinary anti-seize for spoke prep. I'd think that this would be the optimum with respect to future "truability". Would this cause me any problems other than, perhaps, needing to true my wheels a couple of times each season?

5) Given that I already have the Pro Lock nipples, would lubing those up with antiseize work for me? Or would that just be jumbled mess of conflicting gunk that would satisfy none of my goals for my wheels?

I'm eager to get this project started but, at the same time, nipples are cheap and I want to do this right if I'm going to invest the time and energy to do it.

Thanks for your help.

Classtime 

I have no experience with Pro Lock technology and have been very pleased with more than a dozen builds using regular bits and pieces. If this is your first build, I recommend DT brass nipples and lube with 3 in One oil -- a little dab will do you. I also recommend https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php as a very good how to.

Kontact 

Pro locks will work well - unless you ignore the instructions and put something on the threads. They don't become untruable.

I would never use antiseize on brass nipples.

For regular brass I like triflow or some other very light oil.

Built wheels professionally since 1990.

KCT1986

My impression is that the Pro Lock is a substitute for spoke prep compounds. It should provide lubrication during build and 'set up' to a certain degree of hardness & resist unwanted loosening.

The Wheelpro book is quite informative. Have read the prior releases of the book.

Also, if you haven't already, see the post by Sheldon Brown on 'Wheelbuilding'. It's found through the 'Sticky' in this forum.

Bill Kapaun

The reason I built my own is I don't like having to true them afterwards.

I have no clue what highly "truable" is supposed to mean. The worse they are, the more you can true them?
If it's buildable, it's "truable.

Harold74

"Highly Truable" = the spokes can be easily adjusted at any point in time and are not "stuck" at any particular state of tension or wind up.

"Highly Buildable" <> "Highly Truable" from my perspective because "buildable" speaks to only the instant in time of the initial build. Spokes built using Crazy Glue as spoke prep, for example, would be highly buildable but not "highly trueable" in this sense.

Harold74

Where does one find the instructions? I've been unable to find them via internet search alone. I might have to call somebody.
And what's your reasoning for that? This thread leads me to believe that it's done with some regularity: Link.

Kontact 

https://www.dtswiss.com/en/wheels/wh...ock-technology
"Suitable for either hand or machine built wheels. Use of grease or oil not recommended."


The claim in the link is that spoke prep - a type of thread locker (like Lok-Tite) is the same as anti-seize - a grease with metal suspended in it to prevent galling and corrosion - especially at high temps.
I don't know why anyone would come to the conclusion that a low tack adhesive is the same product as a lubricant with metal.

Spoke prep is liquid that dries without any particulate, so it is perfectly smooth. Anti seize is grainy. So you're betting that the metal flakes are going to stick in the threads to make up for the fact that you have subverted the grip of the threads with grease.

Brass and nickel plated brass used in nipples are "self lubricating" metals that tend to not bind against steel. Nor will they gall or corrode. You could build your wheels with no lube and standard brass nipples and it would work and last just fine. Light oil disappears over time, giving a smooth grip on the threads.

Aluminum has a quality called 'stiction', and is the opposite of metals like brass. It has a chalky feel when the alloy nipple is threaded onto the spoke. It also tends to corrode. Those are a candidate for the corrosion and anti seizure protection of anti-seize. Though I personally use grease.

Stainless and titanium have trouble with galling - surface microfractures when firmly threaded into a similar material. Again, anti-seize to prevent galling if you had Ti hardware or nipples.


Brass nipples are pretty foolproof, and even anti-seize will likely work okay with them. But it might also just help the nipples get loose, so I don't know why it makes sense to use it when you have oil, prep and linseed oil as proven formulas. Especially when anti-seize is a mess and stains clothes.


And while I'm on my bike substance soap box, copper Ti prep doesn't make a lot of sense for screwing aluminum cups into titanium bike frames. Magnesium anti-seize would be a much better choice to quell the galvanic corrosion (rather than galling) that plagues that combination. But clearly there is a ton of misinformation in the bike world.

FBinNY 

It's your first wheel and you're just starting the learning process

So stick with the basics. Experienced builders use all kinds of lube or prep for nipples, along with a bit of voodoo, and you won't find any material difference in the finished product.

Over time, after building a number of wheels you'll develop a preference and stick to it.

Also keep in mind that wheelbuilders are like Rabbis. Ask 12 of them a question and you'll get 13 answers.

joesch

Agree and then if you really want a true lock you can solder the spokes like done in the good ole days

wesmamyke

I used up a couple boxes of pro lock nipples because they were available cheap at the time. My experience is they are a little inconsistent in how much is in each nipple, kept finding an odd one that had way too much, or too little. Also had to use a ton of oil while building, even with that they are very tight.

jnbrown

I use Tef-Gel. It provides long lasting corrosion protection.

Kontact 

"Soldering the spokes" normally referrng to joining them where they cross, not at the nipple. Which are you talking about?

Kontact 

What kind of corrosion would you be preventing with stainless spokes and nickel plated brass nipples?

Kontact 

One thing that I don't think people appreciate enough is that spoke nipples don't have a lockring or nut that stops them from turning on their own, like a hub axle cone does. And the rim is constantly changing shape, causing the tension holding the nipple to vary.

Brass nipples have always been a great balance between enough friction to stay in place and the ability to be moved later. Prep or linseed oil slightly increase the ability to stay in place while not interfering with smooth turning very much, which is why we have been using both for decades. New substances like anti-seize may work, or it may cause your nipples to move more over time than simple oil. But no one was using common anti-seize 50 years ago to build wheels, so why are they now?

joesch

Yes at cross intersections, never seen it done at the nipples

GamblerGORD53

Geeze just get on with it and use the Prolock and ignore all these other voodo gimmics. Who the hell has fire prone linseed oil anymore?? WTF.
I have been using these prolocks for 10 years. My wheels are true and close as I can see with my old eyes, a couple 1/1000th.
Last year I actually respoked my SA XL dyno hub from 3 cross to 2 cross. I think I reused most of the nipples and cut down the spokes. I used mostly 2.3/2.0 spokes with my big heavy IGH hubs and awesome Velocity Dyad rims that DON'T have goofy eyelets. Good for 32 to 38 mm tires.
All the ordinary bought wheels I had, sure as hell DID need yearly fussing.

joesch

re: so why are they now?
Maybe because with the much smaller number of spokes for wheel builds the tension loss happens much sooner?

Kontact 

So what does that have to do with locking the nipples?

joesch

Eliminates need to use anti-seize for nipples. An alternative approach.

Kontact 

I don't think so. Carbon rims are stiffer than alloy and 20 hole wheels use higher tension per spoke. That combination is less prone to losing tension from nipples unwinding.


My opinion is that we live in the post-expert age, where you can go on the internet and say "Spoke prep is anti-seize" and have that ridiculous assertion accepted as fact. And if you'll excuse me, I have to take my anti-Covid bleach injection now.

Kontact 

How does soldering the spoke crosses, 10 inches away from the nipples, have anything to do with nipples moving or seizing?

Harold74

Thanks for sharing your experience. I go my pro locks because, when I bought them, I was struggling to find anything else at the Canadian bike shops that I typically deal with. In 12 mm, silver, bronze DT Swiss it was down to either the standard nipples with the pro-lock or the pro head nipples that are intended for high deflection angle applications. Maybe the pro heads would have been fine for my standard deflection angle application, I don't know.

Harold74

I think that the difference there is that hub axle cones are not pre-loaded, threaded fasteners in the normal sense. A properly pre-loaded threaded fastener doesn't require a lock nut or anything like that to keep it from coming undone so long as adequate tension is maintained. And while wheels do change shape all of the time in small increments, I'd expect a true unloading of spoke tension to occur only under the influence of more serious events like pothole and curb impacts.

Like a lot of folks, I'm not interested in using anti-seize because I'm confusing it with thread locker but, rather, because it's not thread locker.

I misspoke earlier when I said that this would be my first wheel build. This will be my first new wheel build. I've actually disassembled and rebuilt six vintage wheel's from the 80's. When I first got into bike tinkering a few years ago, I picked up three vintage touring bikes all chosen, in part, because they had rims that where in good shape save the need for some minor truing. All of the wheels have stainless steel spokes and brass nipples. That minor truing turned out to be a nightmare, I believe, because spoke of spoke windup. And that was with me:

1) stress relieving
2) oiling the spokes at the nipples
3) using a quality truing stand
4) over adjusting and backing off
5) Monitoring tension with a cheap Park tensiometer

The only thing that I didn't do was use a spoke holder. That, because a) I didn't know about them initially and b) once I new about them it took four months for my order to arrive.

Anyhow, on one of the front wheels, my efforts at minor truing resulted in my actually tacoing the wheel. I got so frustrated that I tore the wheel apart, lubed the spokes with Permatex anti-seize and rebuilt the wheel. And the result was glorious. So much so that, the same weekend, I rebuilt all six wheels on the three vintage bikes. The process was quick and rational and, two years on, the wheels have yet to require any adjustment.

After going through all of that, I decided that I wanted all of my wheels to be highly truable in the future. As I said, I don't mind doing frequent adjustments. And I see little risk in it for the 32+ spoke wheels that I ride. My 1991 Miyata 1000 has 36H wheels that came to me with two dead spokes and four very loose spokes on the rear wheel. I didn't know that for some time and it caused me no problem at all over two summers of riding other than a minor wobble.

Harold74

I've ordered some non-Pro Lock, standard brass nipples from Amazon that I plan to build with using some Tri-Flow lubricant that I have on hand. I assume that will be as good as the three in one recommended above. Hopefully that, combined with the interesting metallurgical properties of brass that I've learned about here, will yield a wheel that serves me well. Thanks, all, for your input here.