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bike science: more than 1 way to turn a bike?

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bike science: more than 1 way to turn a bike?

Old 05-21-21, 04:26 PM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
What's being discussed here requires a base level of competence. It's a talking about a refinement of a skill people (who can ride) already have.

No one here is suggesting to start people without skill to start with this discussion.

(People don't learn carving the first time they are on skis either.)

Your obtusity has been duly noted and recorded in the proper file for future reference.
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Old 05-21-21, 04:30 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by Cpn_Dunsel View Post
Your obtusity has been duly noted and recorded in the proper file for future reference.
What's funny is that I agreed with you!

Teaching this to the person you referred to as a "menace" (due to a lack of skill) is the wrong thing to do.

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Old 05-21-21, 04:45 PM
  #178  
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When you are riding, the bike is always ďfallingĒ (leaning) to one side or the other. This is why even when riding in a straight line, you must constantly make minute corrections with the bars to maintain balance. The fact that it is not possible to ride a bike with a locked fork more than a few feet is proof of this.

Every time you "made a turn without counter steering!" what you actually did was ignored making one of those regular, minor steering corrections required every second to maintain balance, allowing the bike to fall to the side required to set up your turn. And yes this is all done unconsciously so we don't even realize it. It gets the bike to the same place a counter steer would get it but not nearly as quickly. In order to quickly change direction or avoid a hazard, you must counter steer by forcing the bars (briefly) in the opposite direction you want to turn. Even this, as dramatic as it can be, becomes so automatic that many don't realize they are doing it. It certainly makes for great BF threads though!

Now to go back and catch up. You all really posted this thread up today!
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Old 05-21-21, 08:53 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Not suggesting, stating as fact. You were not using the handlebars to initiate a turn.

You were turning by using your body weight to lean the bike in the direction you wanted to go. The only alternative to countersteering.

Really, people. This stuff isn't that hard to understand.
Shifting or leaning body weight alone can really only steer the bike while riding no handed. If your hands are on the bars, they are calling the shots. I suppose your body position can aid a little, but hands steering the bars can easily override it.

The only alternative to counter steering is to allow the bike to naturally lean the direction needed for your turn by not correcting it back to the upright position. It's the same principal though, just performed in another manner. This is likely the most common way most turns are initiated. That, or a very subtle, almost undetectable amount of counter steer. Watching the bars it looks the same.

Try this. Ride no handed and watch the bars. They naturally rock back and forth as you balance and steer with your body. Every turn you make will be preceded by the bars briefly pointing the opposite direction of the turn. Every time.

Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
They are pretty apparent if you know to look for them. It's an experience thing.


You practice because you can get better at it (obviously). If you countersteer more deliberately, you can make sharper/quicker turns.
Exactly. After a couple of sessions of practice everyone in my group from riders with little experience to those with decades of experience showed measurable improvement in bike handling when performing emergency maneuvers. No formal class is needed but the only way to get better is with experience and/or practice. Practice speeds up the process and keeps your skills fresh.

Of course for those who already know it all, or better yet "got it" the first time they wobbled down the sidewalk at 4 years old, training isn't likely to improve their skills.
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Old 05-21-21, 11:55 PM
  #180  
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I think this thread should be bumped once a year to see how many pages accumulate over time.
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Old 05-22-21, 07:53 AM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
They are pretty apparent if you know to look for them. It's an experience thing.


You practice because you can get better at it (obviously). If you countersteer more deliberately, you can make sharper/quicker turns.


I can see it (in your video).
I started the thread to see how steering fits into turning. I use steering to make sharper/quicker turns in races than those around me. Also safer turns. I also use steering to increase my safety in many emergency moves. I use steering as part of keeping my bike more upright. This reduces crashing by itself. But it also lets me apply power in turns where others are just leaning. So that I leave them behind or just string them out while using less energy. So whatever it is that I'm doing, it's faster/safer than what the others are doing in those situations.

Also, I see many others using "swoopy" maneuver technique in straight forward riding as they try to avoid obstacles and that this leads to them crashing. It also leads them to being more concerned in the pack. ...While I use my steer method to easily avoid obstacles and not crash and have zero nervousness in the pack. I compare and contrast and advocate for my method.

I gave 2 examples: a leaned downhill turn where you steer less, and an uphill turn where you keep the power on and lean less, steer more. I find that I can use the steered uphill technique on faster, flatter turns to advantage.

My common scenario is that I'm in the field in a crit and there's a flat 90-deg turn that often has bumps, bad pavement details. The group is going fast, its standard pace, then tends to coast or soft pedal the corner. This increases the accordion effect. So I go to the front to avoid that. But I also change how I corner. I start applying power throughout the corner, stringing out the pack and leaving behind those who just coast and lean. They might even think they are cornering fast. But because of the bumps and roughness and my need for precision in the corner I dont want to be powering AND only leaning to turn. Steering lets me manage the details better and powering lets me go faster. I pressure my hip to the outside of the corner to stand the bike up more. I'm not going harder in the corner than on the straight. I'm just not slowing down. I can ride steady and hurt the field because they're not using my technique. I'm safely saving energy.

I'm not saying anything about countersteer. But nobody is cornering faster. Nobody is using countersteer to leave me behind or make me struggle. I conclude that I have the fastest cornering technique in that common crit situation. (Of course a couple other riders might be on par, if they know the skill. Several of us have totally rolled away from the pack doing this. Also some can compensate coz they're just stronger -- but it keeps them much tamer. This is just one place where I use skill to offset having less power.)

If anyone knows anything about the science involved in faster, safer cornering and obstacle avoidance -- not in theory but in practice -- please share.

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Old 05-22-21, 09:04 AM
  #182  
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So the real purpose of this thread was to promote your ability?

John
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Old 05-22-21, 09:21 AM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
So the real purpose of this thread was to promote your ability?

John
Stupid. ...Reading comprehension.

I asked what is the science behind this technique.

I suppose I could add because some people say that steering isn't real and doesn't help you corner faster or safer.

I'm trying to figure out a good way to explain the steering way to turn, to help ppl be safer.
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Old 05-22-21, 10:42 AM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
Stupid. ...Reading comprehension.

I asked what is the science behind this technique.
You've been given the science, you just don't believe it.

John
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Old 05-22-21, 11:29 AM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
I'm trying to figure out a good way to explain the steering way to turn, to help ppl be safer.
There's a similar turning issue in alpine skiing.

As with a bicycle, there are two ways to initiate a carved turn on skis:

Technique #1: lean in the direction you want to turn
Technique #2. move your feet to the opposite direction you want to turn

#1 is analagous to "body steering" on a bicycle. It is lumbering, slow, and not that precise, as you have to shift your body weight from one side to the other.

#2 is analagous to counter steering, as you body weight remains in one place while your feet move to the outside of the turn.

For the same reasons that skillful cyclists use counter steering, skillful skiers use the "move feet under body" technique.

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Old 05-22-21, 12:30 PM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
You've been given the science, you just don't believe it.

John
? Dozens of bickering posts and declarations.

As I glanced thru them I didn't notice anyone verifying what they were talking about to the extent I'm describing.

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Old 05-22-21, 12:43 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
There's a similar turning issue in alpine skiing.

As with a bicycle, there are two ways to initiate a carved turn on skis:

Technique #1: lean in the direction you want to turn
Technique #2. move your feet to the opposite direction you want to turn

#1 is analagous to "body steering" on a bicycle. It is lumbering, slow, and not that precise, as you have to shift your body weight from one side to the other.

#2 is analagous to counter steering, as you body weight remains in one place while your feet move to the outside of the turn.

For the same reasons that skillful cyclists use counter steering, skillful skiers use the "move feet under body" technique.

Effective slalom skiing
I don't think it's the same (not close enough to shed light on bicycling).

Carving technique doesn't entail turning the skis away from the turn. (The momentary pointing the wheel away from the turn is a key thing in countersteering).

A big point of carving technique is to keep body mass moving in a straighter path and reduce twisting mass around a vertical axis and rolling (side to side motion) of that mass (which makes turns slower).

The technique of reducing twisting is called "countering" but it's not the same thing as what's done for "countersteering". It's being done for the same reason people swing their arms when running.

The moving the skis under the body is to tip the skis and bend them along the path of the turn without swinging body mass back-and-forth. (Countersteering is steering away from the path of the turn.)

==============

The idea with (modern) skiing is to bend the edges of the skis with/into the turn you want to move in. Countersteering is different (and weird) because it works against the turn (but just briefly). After the countersteer, you steer into the curve (and that's vaguely like skiing).

One might argue that countersteering to get the lean is "bending the skiis" but the difference between countersteering and skiing in how that's done is important.

Countersteering is doing something different than making bicycle turns by skiing them.

The point of talking about countersteering is to work against the misconception that people ski their bikes in turns.

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Old 05-22-21, 01:12 PM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
? Dozens of bickering posts and declarations.

As I glanced thru them I didn't notice anyone verifying what they were talking about to the extent I'm describing.
You really don't describe things very clearly in your first post.

You also picked the wrong forum for your question (this forum tends to be for more-basic questions).

And given the amount of money you are paying people to give you what you demand, whinging about not getting it is an odd look.

Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
I feel like I can take slippery corners faster than many riders, especially in cyclocross, because I have more steer in my ratio of lean/steer. The bike might as a result slide in a corner but it doesn't fall down. (This happens in rain, mud, snow.)
You need more adhesion and speed to lean more. You may be relying on countersteer more than you think you are. And you may be setting up the turn better than others (people might be turning too late).

I doubt it's because the other riders are riding slack touring bikes (most people are probably riding bikes with similar steering). (Not sure why you think the bikes people are using are significantly different.)

I'd surmise you are "in the middle of the pack" as far as criterium racing skill goes. What do people that are better than you do?

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Old 05-23-21, 09:38 AM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
You really don't describe things very clearly in your first post.

You also picked the wrong forum for your question (this forum tends to be for more-basic questions).

And given the amount of money you are paying people to give you what you demand, whinging about not getting it is an odd look.


You need more adhesion and speed to lean more. You may be relying on countersteer more than you think you are. And you may be setting up the turn better than others (people might be turning too late).

I doubt it's because the other riders are riding slack touring bikes (most people are probably riding bikes with similar steering). (Not sure why you think the bikes people are using are significantly different.)

I'd surmise you are "in the middle of the pack" as far as criterium racing skill goes. What do people that are better than you do?
Disagree on my first question.

Don't know what this is about different bikes.

It seems I'm higher skill than fitness. And back in fitter days was still higher skill. One of my points was that nobody I race crits with puts hurt on me in flat corners. I'm not fastest in downhill curves coz I don't live near them. So I have a lot of the steer kind of turn skill but not so much of the leaning kind. This also suggests to me there are different ways to turn.

What about fork flop?

also: i asked before but the deluge: does countersteering always have to mean bars pointing the wrong way against the turn across centerline of bike?

what if fork flop wants to turn the bars 2" to the left and you resist that pressure and only let them turn 1". Have you countersteered an inch?

...i recall seeing a comment suggesting this. but due to the swampage i dont know what came of it...
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Old 05-23-21, 10:10 AM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
Disagree on my first question.

Don't know what this is about different bikes.

It seems I'm higher skill than fitness. And back in fitter days was still higher skill. One of my points was that nobody I race crits with puts hurt on me in flat corners. I'm not fastest in downhill curves coz I don't live near them. So I have a lot of the steer kind of turn skill but not so much of the leaning kind. This also suggests to me there are different ways to turn.

What about fork flop?

also: i asked before but the deluge: does countersteering always have to mean bars pointing the wrong way against the turn across centerline of bike?

what if fork flop wants to turn the bars 2" to the left and you resist that pressure and only let them turn 1". Have you countersteered an inch?

...i recall seeing a comment suggesting this. but due to the swampage i dont know what came of it...

I think you've now clarified that you are posting a bunch of racing forum questions in a General Cycling forum, and I'm shocked, shocked you're not getting the answers you want.

​​​​​​Admit you posted this in the wrong place, and move on. Quit scolding people because you were unclear about what you were looking for.
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Old 05-23-21, 10:21 AM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I think you've now clarified that you are posting a bunch of racing forum questions in a General Cycling forum, and I'm shocked, shocked you're not getting the answers you want.

​​​​​​Admit you posted this in the wrong place, and move on. Quit scolding people because you were unclear about what you were looking for.
Bad analysis on your part. As I've said a couple times, when people say one way to turn is better than another it's good to know that they know what they are talking about. That's what I stated that my references to racing are meant to do. And my main goal is to help any rider maneuver more safely. ...I've said that also.
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Old 05-23-21, 10:48 AM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
Bad analysis on your part. As I've said a couple times, when people say one way to turn is better than another it's good to know that they know what they are talking about. That's what I stated that my references to racing are meant to do. And my main goal is to help any rider maneuver more safely. ...I've said that also.

Yes, and you obviously were dissatisfied with the general answer that a) everybody countersteers to some extent whether they're aware of it or not and b) relatively tiny advantages in racing are not going to translate into any real safety gains in general riding.

As far as I can tell, you're looking for people who turn like you turn to say everyone should be taught to turn like you turn, and your feelings got hurt because pretty much no one is saying this.
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Old 05-23-21, 11:03 AM
  #193  
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I teach basic fitness rider safety classes. It's not about racing. I'm wondering about the science of the 2 kinds of turns I have them learn. I already know about the practical aspect. I would like to be able to give a better technical explanation.

I have riders do swoopy turns in a parking lot where they lean a lot and use their arms less, keeping them quite straight, and I suggest that kind of turning will help them in faster downhill turns where leaning is the main thing. I also have them do steering turns where they push their hips to the outside of the corner and turn their bars more to get more detail control in their turns -- I mention that this kind of turning can help them avoid potholes in a group or can help them stay up when it's slippery; it can also let them apply power while turning. So I have these beginners practice different kinds of turning that are useful for different things. They like it. They like learning and feeling the differences. These beginners are learning needed skills for riding faster with fitness groups. I have them do this because in packs I constantly see ppl crash because they swoop to avoid a pothole and wash out their front wheel or swerve into another rider.

I also have them learn the difference between riding with straight arms and bent arms. I tell them straight is OK as a rest but that they are far safer when using bent arms. ...And bent arms let them steer.

Today's unsafe bike culture relates to the dominance of straight arm riding and the resulting swoop-turning.

My questions are suitable here because there is no better section for them.
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Old 05-23-21, 11:27 AM
  #194  
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The one thing I really love about my road bike is how it “dives” into corners. I realize that term is most likely not correct, but it is the sensation that the bike feels like it is almost on rails and turning itself/falling into the corner.

But in thinking about setting up for that dive, so to speak, around the apex, I can understand how I slightly move opposite the turn, even if I am not aware of it, and then “dive” into the turn.

At the same time when I do this poorly, I feel that I’m carrying too much speed and fighting to make the turn.

I never rode motorcycles so before BF, I’d never heard of countersteering. I had never really given it much thought over the past few years, but I’m going to try to be a bit more cognizant of my mechanics.

John
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Old 05-23-21, 12:43 PM
  #195  
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Diving into a corner is one way to turn. And seems best to me for obstacle-free, grippy downhill turns.

My points are that:

*Diving is a massively dangerous habit to have when you suddenly see a pothole while you're riding in a group. Nor will diving help you when you hit that pothole and need to make it thru it w/o deviating from straight line. To me diving is swooping is turning by pushing the bars down, tilting the bike down.

*Also diving won't help you go around a flat or uphill turn very fast.

...When I do twisty turns around pylons in a parking lot I can do them by powering into them fast then dramatically tilting the bike toward the ground for each swoopy turn, tipping the bike down, from one side to the other, while not turning the bars much. Or... I can use my hips to keep the bike more upright and pedal thru the turns around the pylons and turn my bars more.

Both ways work but they work best in different conditions.

The steering way works best in a group for avoiding potholes. The diving, swoopy way can be done using straight stiff arms which is bad for fine detail control.
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Old 05-23-21, 01:23 PM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
Today's unsafe bike culture relates to the dominance of straight arm riding and the resulting swoop-turning.

I have no idea what "Today's unsafe bike culture" is supposed to refer to. All I know is your concerns seem to have nothing to do with the riding I do, maybe it applies to group riding, but I'm just not seeing people go down by taking too wide turns or even having close calls for that reason.

But you seem to be in need of physics teachers to answer your "how do I explain" and "what is the science" questions.
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Old 05-23-21, 01:24 PM
  #197  
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Iím about to run some errands on my bike. Not sure how to turn after reading this thread. Wish me suerte.
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Old 05-23-21, 01:27 PM
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I've been cycling in all types of terrain and weather conditions including ice and snow for the past 14 years...After reading this thread I've decided to give up cycling for good because steering is just too damn complicated.
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Old 05-23-21, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Iím about to run some errands on my bike. Not sure how to turn after reading this thread. Wish me suerte.
Just send a PM to one of the steering experts on this list and they will send you a step by step instructions on how to steer your bicycle when doing your errands.
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Old 05-23-21, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I have no idea what "Today's unsafe bike culture" is supposed to refer to. All I know is your concerns seem to have nothing to do with the riding I do, maybe it applies to group riding, but I'm just not seeing people go down by taking too wide turns or even having close calls for that reason.

But you seem to be in need of physics teachers to answer your "how do I explain" and "what is the science" questions.
I mentioned it earlier. ...Most sport riders today seem to have too much swoop in their turns and have stiff/straight arms and as a result many crash needlessly.

I never mentioned wide or tight turns.

Silly about teachers. But it would be helpful if an experienced biker who knew physics could explain the differences I'm seeing in turning.
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