Notices
Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like : "Unbound Gravel". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

gravelbike weight

Old 03-22-22, 05:02 AM
  #1  
gattm99
Rouleur
Thread Starter
 
gattm99's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: HARRISBURG IL
Posts: 741

Bikes: ROAD MOUNTAIN

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
gravelbike weight

I've been riding gravel for 10 years and never really took it seriously. I started on a nashbar toruing bike, then I switched to an old Jake the Snake that was much lighter and sportier. The Jake was an old ebay frame with a dent and eventually the dent cracked. I bought a breezer inversion frame from a friend and built it up. This bike weighs 28.5 pounds, more then my hardtail mtb. I didn't really care, but my last two races have been gravel and while I don't really take them seriously, and I could loose alot of weight, I still wonder if I'd have more fun on a lighter cross bike. I have no idea why my breezer weighs so much, its a steel frame but I think the factory version was suppose to weight like 22 pounds.
gattm99 is offline  
Old 03-22-22, 05:38 AM
  #2  
gattm99
Rouleur
Thread Starter
 
gattm99's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: HARRISBURG IL
Posts: 741

Bikes: ROAD MOUNTAIN

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts


Here's the bike, the weight is without the frame bag and bottles, but does include a saddle bag with tube, which probably adds about a pound.
gattm99 is offline  
Old 03-22-22, 06:37 AM
  #3  
chas58
Senior Member
 
chas58's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,845

Bikes: too many of all kinds

Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1143 Post(s)
Liked 403 Times in 325 Posts
Yah, my bike weighs about 17.4lbs (less with road tires/wheels). It is insanely fun. The biggest difference is in out of the saddle acceleration. At a steady 150-200watts, it doesn't really make a difference. But this thing pops when I ask it to accelerate. Its a big reason I got the bike. Most gravel bikes are a bit laconic. For comparison, I tested it against a 28lb steel Specialized. Took about 4 strong pedal strokes to get up to speed on the light bike, took about 6 to get up to speed on the Specialized - but boy was that specialized comfortable for an all day ride. Its good to have options.
chas58 is offline  
Likes For chas58:
Old 03-22-22, 06:46 AM
  #4  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 5,346
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5090 Post(s)
Liked 7,445 Times in 3,231 Posts
Originally Posted by gattm99 View Post
I've been riding gravel for 10 years and never really took it seriously. I started on a nashbar toruing bike, then I switched to an old Jake the Snake that was much lighter and sportier. The Jake was an old ebay frame with a dent and eventually the dent cracked. I bought a breezer inversion frame from a friend and built it up. This bike weighs 28.5 pounds, more then my hardtail mtb. I didn't really care, but my last two races have been gravel and while I don't really take them seriously, and I could loose alot of weight, I still wonder if I'd have more fun on a lighter cross bike. I have no idea why my breezer weighs so much, its a steel frame but I think the factory version was suppose to weight like 22 pounds.
I highlighted the relevant portion of your post.

Yes, a lighter bike might feel "more fun." You'll have to decide if that (and probably that alone) is worth the price.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 03-22-22, 07:37 AM
  #5  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 14,510

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8234 Post(s)
Liked 5,065 Times in 2,944 Posts
28.5 pounds seems like a lot for that bike and size. That is a quality steel tube frame and full carbon fork. The rims arent porky(I have them on my gravel bike too), and you are even running a Gatorskin rear tire so that maxes out at 32mm and isnt too heavy compared to gravel tires.
I bet even though the tubing is quality, they spec it beefy for liability and reliability. Even still, I would have guessed your bike weighs 24-25 pounds without bottles, bag, or wedge bag.

https://www.cxmagazine.com/bike-revi...cross-off-road
This model was 21.2 pounds as tested. Hydraulic instead of cable brakes.

https://www.theproscloset.com/produc...-frameset-2019
This weighs 3100g which isnt great but also not terrible. Figure 450g for the fork, 70g for the thru axles, 25g for the seatpost collar, 20g for bolts, and you end up with 2535g for the frame(assumes no bearings were in the frame when weighed). That is not light for a quality steel gravel frame, but you shouldnt expect it a mass manufactured steel gravel frame of that size to be more than 250g lighter, which is half a pound.

Do you have lead wedged up in your seatpost?
mstateglfr is offline  
Likes For mstateglfr:
Old 03-22-22, 08:11 AM
  #6  
gattm99
Rouleur
Thread Starter
 
gattm99's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: HARRISBURG IL
Posts: 741

Bikes: ROAD MOUNTAIN

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Do you have lead wedged up in your seatpost?

I know right! I can't figure it out, I'm going to have to start taking it apart and figuring out where the weight is coming from. Since this photo the rear gatorskin has been repalced by a 32 gravel king to match the front. The new rear cassette is about a 550g Sunrace 46-11 and rear deraileur is Deore with tanpan. In the photo above I think the bike weighed around 27. I am running tubes and those tubes have a little stans in them, I've never had a flat on this bike since I did that, so that may be an extra half pound?
gattm99 is offline  
Old 03-22-22, 08:20 AM
  #7  
msu2001la
Senior Member
 
msu2001la's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,022
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 951 Post(s)
Liked 920 Times in 532 Posts
Lighter bikes are more fun to ride.
I doubt I'd complete a gravel race any faster on a 17lb CX bike than I would on a 28lb gravel bike, but not everything in cycling needs to be measured or justified by a stopwatch.
msu2001la is offline  
Likes For msu2001la:
Old 03-22-22, 08:50 AM
  #8  
jonathanf2
Full Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 469

Bikes: '17 105 2x11 Sprint CF Comp / '21 GRX400 2x10 Poseidon X

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 223 Post(s)
Liked 395 Times in 198 Posts
I wasn't a weight weenie, until I found myself climbing all the time. I haven't gone to ridiculous lengths, but I try to cut weight where the cost-to-weight ratio is low. Wheels, pedals, seat post and saddle seem to take up quite a bit weight, maybe start there and try cutting? My budget alloy frameset build weighs in at just under 20 lbs. with 2x crankset, full hydraulics and 11-36t cassette. Though I could still see myself cutting weight in other areas.
jonathanf2 is offline  
Likes For jonathanf2:
Old 03-22-22, 09:42 AM
  #9  
cyclezen
OM boy
 
cyclezen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Posts: 3,970

Bikes: a bunch

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 356 Post(s)
Liked 389 Times in 269 Posts
Originally Posted by gattm99 View Post
I've been riding gravel for 10 years and never really took it seriously. I started on a nashbar toruing bike, then I switched to an old Jake the Snake that was much lighter and sportier. The Jake was an old ebay frame with a dent and eventually the dent cracked. I bought a breezer inversion frame from a friend and built it up. This bike weighs 28.5 pounds, more then my hardtail mtb. I didn't really care, but my last two races have been gravel and while I don't really take them seriously, and I could loose alot of weight, I still wonder if I'd have more fun on a lighter cross bike. I have no idea why my breezer weighs so much, its a steel frame but I think the factory version was suppose to weight like 22 pounds.
Originally Posted by gattm99 View Post
I know right! I can't figure it out, I'm going to have to start taking it apart and figuring out where the weight is coming from. Since this photo the rear gatorskin has been repalced by a 32 gravel king to match the front. The new rear cassette is about a 550g Sunrace 46-11 and rear deraileur is Deore with tanpan. In the photo above I think the bike weighed around 27. I am running tubes and those tubes have a little stans in them, I've never had a flat on this bike since I did that, so that may be an extra half pound?
You're starting with a Frame which is a few ounces shy of 7 lbs in Lg...
3x drivetrain ? (hard to see...) - which seems quite stout and overkill on the big ring? - with an 11x42 cassette ?
Then wheels... They look stout, sturdy, bomb-proof and with tubes...
Not sayin any of this is 'bad' - it's all good and will give great service. But if you think you're losing places in a 'race', because of weight, then...
If you really wanna lose some weight.
A CF frame will drop 3.5 lbs from the 7ish current weight.
a 'race' wheelset with tubeless will easily drop 1.5 - 2 lbs. and you'll even be able to go larger tire and lower psi, same speed, better compliance/comfort. Keep the current wheelset for daily/training rides, when conditions are rough...
convert that 3x to a 1x crank and lose all the FD hardware... use the 11x42, maybe with a 38 front and if the race course is really crazy steep, have a 34 you can swap on the front.
prolly 1+ lb there...
so now you're down 3.5 + 2 + 1 = 6.5 ish lbs .... 27 lbs down to just over 20...
marginal gains
CF stem and bars, pedals?, some very marginal gains hydraulic vs mech brakes.
All depends how important 'race' is, how fit you are, how important any of this is...
The lightest,most minimal gravel bikes (without pedals) are all around 18 and + lbs...
But do buy now, cause loan interest rates are going up... and 2x kidneys is overkill anyway... LOL!

Keepin the kidney ? don;t need a new frame? racing is 'fun' not 'life'?
get a 2nd 'race' wheelset, a couple cassettes/ranges to cover different courses and go 1x drivetrain. Get below 12% butterfat body...
it's all good
Ride On
Yuri
cyclezen is offline  
Likes For cyclezen:
Old 03-23-22, 05:43 AM
  #10  
chas58
Senior Member
 
chas58's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,845

Bikes: too many of all kinds

Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1143 Post(s)
Liked 403 Times in 325 Posts
If you are not sprinting or doing a lot of out of the saddle accelerations, its not going to make much of a difference. Just for grins, I tried my favorite 3 hour ride (i.e. more endurance) on a bike that weighted what your did. I wasn't any faster, didn't really have any less fun the heavy bike. Well, until the end. I did run out of steam about 2.5hrs into the ride so it ended up taking longer - guess the extra weight wore me out (rolling hills).
chas58 is offline  
Old 03-23-22, 06:11 AM
  #11  
Rides4Beer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 1,437

Bikes: SuperSix Evo | Revolt

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 732 Post(s)
Liked 809 Times in 412 Posts
Not a huge weight weenie, but just a few upgrades and my '21 Revolt is sitting at about 7.8kg ready to ride.

Rides4Beer is offline  
Likes For Rides4Beer:
Old 03-23-22, 09:14 AM
  #12  
chaadster
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 11,522

Bikes: '15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, '76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, '17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, '12 Breezer Venturi, '09 Dahon Mariner, '12 Mercier Nano, '95 DeKerf Team SL, '19 Tern Rally, ‘21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, ‘19 T-Lab X3

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2085 Post(s)
Liked 1,142 Times in 694 Posts
gattm99 Cool bike! I wanted to nab one of the launch edition Inversions, in blue, but when I was ready to buy, none were to be found, but generally that’s true for any model year Inversion, it seems. There probably just aren’t that many, which jives with what I know about their other top models which used the hydroformed, post-weld heat treated, Japanese drawn steel, like Venturi and Lightning. For example, Breezer told me that only 149 MY12 Venturi frames went to market. It may be different for Inversion, of course, but for a top tier model from a small brand, it’s a pretty good bet volumes are dinky. But anyway, I just the tech, geometry and styling on your Inversion Pro make it really cool. Congrats!

Regarding weight, as others have said, it sounds like something is off a bit, like perhaps the calibration on your scale, or more likely, the stuff you included in the weigh-in. Published bike weights are tricky because it’s very rarely ever spec’d what was weighed. For example, it’s common to exclude pedals and cages, and manufacturers probably exclude sealant whereas reviewers may. Frame size is often not specified either, but larger frames weigh more. I don’t think most would report weight including accessories like computer, their mounts, pump, repair kits, bags, or sensors, but all that stuff adds up.

Does it add up to around 4lbs is probably the real question, and looking at your pic, I’d probably say the answer is no, because it appears you have non-stock components on there, too. Wheels, stem, seat, and bar look aftermarket; maybe there’s a bit of weight gain there?

I dunno, but I do think 28lbs for that bike (in a typical weigh-in configuration) is high, and if you strip all the extras off and re-weigh it, you’ll get a more accurate weight and one more in line with what others report for the bike.

Whatever the result, from what I’ve read, you’ve got a sweet riding bike, and if you want to shave weight, you’ve got room to do it. Yes, lower weight can make a bike feel more responsive and lively, which is great, but it does cost money, and the cost/benefit analysis is a very personal thing, so only you can say whether it’s worthwhile to do.
chaadster is offline  
Old 03-23-22, 07:58 PM
  #13  
ColonelSanders
Banned.
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Vegemite Island
Posts: 4,130

Bikes: 2017 Surly Troll with XT Drive Train, 2017 Merida Big Nine XT Edition, 2016 Giant Toughroad SLR 2, 1995 Trek 830

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1916 Post(s)
Liked 307 Times in 216 Posts
Originally Posted by Rides4Beer View Post
Not a huge weight weenie, but just a few upgrades and my '21 Revolt is sitting at about 7.8kg ready to ride.

That is a great looking bike.
ColonelSanders is offline  
Likes For ColonelSanders:
Old 03-23-22, 09:36 PM
  #14  
tFUnK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 2,903

Bikes: Too many bikes, too little time to ride

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Liked 98 Times in 86 Posts
Originally Posted by gattm99 View Post
I have no idea why my breezer weighs so much, its a steel frame but I think the factory version was suppose to weight like 22 pounds.
I think the 22 lbs figure is for a small frame. If you've made no other effort to trim weight then I'm not that surprised that it comes out to 28 lbs with pedals, cages, saddle bag, sealant, etc. That said, 28 lbs seems high. New wheels and tires (with weight-conscious but not weight weenie options) will drop 2 lbs. New post and cockpit, maybe another lb. To drop more weight will require weight weenie parts and will make you question the frame choice altogether.

My gravel bike with rim brakes comes in at about 18 lbs naked and 20 lbs ride-ready. Heavier bikes feel more smooth and stable in the rough stuff and when going downhill. But a lighter bike is lively and more fun to ride. There's a certain satisfaction climbing up steep fire roads knowing you're not on a heavy bike.

Last edited by tFUnK; 03-23-22 at 09:39 PM.
tFUnK is offline  
Old 03-23-22, 10:23 PM
  #15  
black_box 
Fax Transport Specialist
 
black_box's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: chicago burbs
Posts: 994

Bikes: '17 giant propel, '07 fuji cross pro, '10 gary fisher x-caliber

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 359 Post(s)
Liked 227 Times in 141 Posts
Originally Posted by Rides4Beer View Post
Not a huge weight weenie, but just a few upgrades and my '21 Revolt is sitting at about 7.8kg ready to ride.

What size/model/changes? Nice!
black_box is offline  
Old 03-24-22, 10:06 AM
  #16  
jonathanf2
Full Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 469

Bikes: '17 105 2x11 Sprint CF Comp / '21 GRX400 2x10 Poseidon X

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 223 Post(s)
Liked 395 Times in 198 Posts
Originally Posted by Rides4Beer View Post
Not a huge weight weenie, but just a few upgrades and my '21 Revolt is sitting at about 7.8kg ready to ride.
I'm also curious where you've cut weight? I notice you have a full carbon saddle and carbon wheels, I'm guessing the Revolt frame is quite lightweight as well. Looks great!
jonathanf2 is offline  
Old 03-24-22, 02:56 PM
  #17  
chas58
Senior Member
 
chas58's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,845

Bikes: too many of all kinds

Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1143 Post(s)
Liked 403 Times in 325 Posts
Originally Posted by Rides4Beer View Post
Not a huge weight weenie, but just a few upgrades and my '21 Revolt is sitting at about 7.8kg ready to ride.
Yah, my Canyon is that weight too. Mine never looks that shiny though - its always full of mud, dirt, scratches, sweat, and blood. I clean it, but it always goes back to its natural state.
chas58 is offline  
Likes For chas58:
Old 03-24-22, 03:29 PM
  #18  
Rides4Beer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: VA
Posts: 1,437

Bikes: SuperSix Evo | Revolt

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 732 Post(s)
Liked 809 Times in 412 Posts
Originally Posted by ColonelSanders View Post
That is a great looking bike.
Thanks!

Originally Posted by black_box View Post
What size/model/changes? Nice!
Originally Posted by jonathanf2 View Post
I'm also curious where you've cut weight? I notice you have a full carbon saddle and carbon wheels, I'm guessing the Revolt frame is quite lightweight as well. Looks great!
It's a M/L (basically a 56). 130g carbon saddle, carbon wheels (I think the Boyds are 1550g), Thomson carbon bars and billet stem, GRX di2 (was still mechanical in the pic). I had a '19 Revolt, and the '21 is significantly lighter even in stock form. The Revolt is new for '22 and is supposed to be even lighter, with more tire clearance. But I'm really liking the Scott Addict Gravel, if I can get my hands on one, I might have to make the swap. lol

Originally Posted by chas58 View Post
Yah, my Canyon is that weight too. Mine never looks that shiny though - its always full of mud, dirt, scratches, sweat, and blood. I clean it, but it always goes back to its natural state.
They're def happiest when they're dirty (nope, the kit didn't come clean lol but it was worth it to snag third overall).

Rides4Beer is offline  
Likes For Rides4Beer:
Old 03-25-22, 06:47 AM
  #19  
phrantic09
Fat n slow
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Saratoga, NY
Posts: 3,041

Bikes: Cervelo R3, Giant Revolt

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2278 Post(s)
Liked 1,347 Times in 639 Posts
18.6 pounds gravel, 18 road





phrantic09 is offline  
Likes For phrantic09:
Old 03-25-22, 05:25 PM
  #20  
chaadster
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 11,522

Bikes: '15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, '76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, '17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, '12 Breezer Venturi, '09 Dahon Mariner, '12 Mercier Nano, '95 DeKerf Team SL, '19 Tern Rally, ‘21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, ‘19 T-Lab X3

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2085 Post(s)
Liked 1,142 Times in 694 Posts
Man, CF is the best for light weight and performance! Sub-8kg gravel bikes are pretty impressive!

For comparison datapoint on titanium, my 58cm (size L) T-Lab X3 comes in at 9.2kg/20.2lbs ready-to-ride (i.e. complete, less anything not screwed on) in winter setup. For summer, it’s nearly a pound less, at 8.7/19.3lbs, due to 42c Ultradynamico Rosé JFF rubber replaced with 35c Herse Bon Jon Pass Extralights, and the Xpedo CXR body-modded Favero Assioma pedals getting their stock bodies back.

No real concessions to weight—I run Paul alu seatpost and stem, Easton EA70 AX alu bar and Spinergy GX alu wheels— so it would be pretty easy to pull out another 200g, I imagine, were I so inclined, but it rides pretty nicely as is.


chaadster is offline  
Old 06-08-22, 08:50 AM
  #21  
msu2001la
Senior Member
 
msu2001la's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,022
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 951 Post(s)
Liked 920 Times in 532 Posts
I posted another thread on here a while back about the weight difference between my older aluminum CX bike and my newer carbon fiber CX bike. I was surprised that my new carbon fiber Cannondale SuperX was actually slightly heavier than my old aluminum Cannondale CAADX.

54cm SuperX (2020) carbon frame with GRX 1x mechanical, hydro disc brakes, stock aluminum wheels, 33mm tires/tubes, 2 bottle cages and XTR pedals = 20.3lbs
54cm CAADX (2014) alloy frame with Force 1x mechanical, Avid Shorty ultimate cantilever brakes, generic Chinese carbon clincher wheels, generic carbon seat post, 33mm tires/tubes, 2 bottle cages and XT pedals = 18.7lbs

I have since upgraded the SuperX with Zipp 303S carbon wheels, Enve G series carbon handlebar and a lighter saddle. Weight was not the primary goal of these upgrades but on paper this shaved around 1.5lbs. Most of that is the wheels, though I'm just guessing at the stock wheelset weight (2000g?). I haven't weighed my SuperX since making changes, but it's probably running around 18.5lbs with pedals and cages.

The published frame weight on the SuperX is 1000g, plus 390g for the fork (so a little over 3lbs for both), which seems competitive with other frames. I often scan Pro's Closet listings and they weigh all their bikes. I've yet to see a SuperX under 18lbs. They currently have a 56cm SuperX with Force AXS 1x with carbon wheels, crank, post, bars and its listed at 19lbs 5oz. There isn't a lot of fat to trim there. https://www.theproscloset.com/produc...ale-superx-m-2

To be clear, I'm not complaining about the weight. My SuperX is a great bike and I love the way it rides and accelerates, climbs, corners, etc. It clears 40mm tires but handles a lot like a road bike. I don't feel that the bike is holding me back at all, even on long climbs. It also has the significant braking advantage over my rim brake aluminum CX bike. I am a bit surprised that it's not lighter though. I always assumed any carbon frame + carbon wheels would automatically result in a bike that is 16-17lbs with room to go lighter. That might be true for rim brake road bikes, but it's pretty rare to find a sub 17lb gravel or CX bike with hydro discs that hasn't undergone some extreme weight weenie measures.
msu2001la is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.