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Seeking Advice on Masi Trade Valuation?

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Seeking Advice on Masi Trade Valuation?

Old 11-14-21, 03:40 PM
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Jacob_R_59 
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Seeking Advice on Masi Trade Valuation?


1975 64cm California Masi GC

This is my 1975 64cm Masi GC. I’m it’s 2nd owner. It has a Brian Baylis repaint. I am 6’4” and this frame is too short in the top tube (58cm) and seat tube (62.5cm CTC) for me. I have a custom 350mm titanium seat post with 2-bolt Campagnolo head to give me correct seat height.

I bought this bike from its original owner in 2019 and I have ridden it once since building it in 2020. Due to its short top tube (to me) it feels cramped, even with a 130mm stem.

I’ve been approached by the owner of a later, 66cm San Marcos-built GC that was the 11th frame built in 1984, likely by Dave Tesch.

Despite being 9 years newer than my own frame, the 66cm frame is not in as good a shape as mine. It has a small dent in it’s top tube and some paint chipping. I have attached photos the 66cm frame’s owner has sent. It has a 59cm top tube.

We are still hammering out the details, but basically a frame swap is what is proposed. Given that my earlier frame is in better condition it’s likely that the newer frame would require a repaint or at least replacement decals and touch up.

My question is, how much does a “fault” like a dented top tube affect the value of a proposed trade? Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Jacob Russell








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Old 11-14-21, 09:58 PM
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Dents are value killers. If you are seriously planning to repaint, then that small dent can be repaired. A quality repaint is serious $$. Myself, I avoid repaints even more than dents. If you are just looking for a rider, then discount the trade and go for it! Certainly not an even swap or anything close to it.

Not sure the trade is worth the effort given you are only gaining 1 cm in TT length.
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Old 11-15-21, 05:45 AM
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I agree that a dent is a value killer, however , that ding is non structural and hardly noticeable. If you are planning a repaint any way and it would allow you to enjoy riding a bike that you want , then work something out that would make the deal fair. Your 1975 is obviously a more valuable bike even though a repaint and you have a pretty good knowledge of these bikes so I am sure you could come up with a deal that would work. I just had my bike repainted by a good shop (Franklin) and it was less than 600 but with shipping almost 750. It came out beautiful and I can’t wait to ride it. The value of a bike, to me, is what pleasure I get from riding it. I rode my Colnago for almost a year in its patina state and loved it but wanted it to look as nice as it rode. It will not be any different in ride quality but it will make me happy to have it look new, that’s what counts for me. I ain’t in it for $ value.
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Old 11-15-21, 07:54 AM
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I'd also make sure that rust on the chainstay is just surface.
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Old 11-15-21, 09:49 AM
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In most cases a dent ruins it for me unless i was planning a total re-finish. It would bug me every time i rode it . Kinda' harsh, but there are plenty of bikes out there with no dents (in my size that is ---- if you yourself are legitimately having a tough time finding the bike you want in your size, then procuring one with a dent and having it re-finished may be a better option for you
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Old 11-16-21, 07:22 PM
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I’d offer that your early Masi frame is worth 2x+ the frame on offer, even without the dent, but opinions differ.
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Old 11-16-21, 09:51 PM
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Thank You!

Thanks for your thoughts, folks. I have decided to wait on the trade, and try a longer (140mm) stem and perhaps a Maes Bend handlebar to stretch out the cockpit.

The gentleman who pointed out that I’d only gain 1cm in top tube length, you were right on the money! I have 3 frames with 59.5cm top tubes and they are quite good on rides in excess of 30 miles.

And I already have 7 “project” frames that need a paint job and I don’t need another one!

I appreciate the feedback!
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Old 11-17-21, 08:13 AM
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I'd consider buying that frame as a project, but i wouldnt trade off your earlier, more valuable frame for it
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Old 11-17-21, 08:54 AM
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Thank you, DMC707

Thanks for your thoughts about the Masi. With the exception of one frame (1968 65cm Bertin C-37 with 57cm top tube) all of my existing projects have top tubes in excess of 58cm. I really don’t need another project!

Jacob
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Old 11-17-21, 01:15 PM
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The two bikes will handle quite differently.
the later one will have more trail, be a bit calmer.
placing the longer stem on the black bike will just place more mass on the front end- might be helpful- Carlsbad bikes are secret low trail machines.
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Old 11-19-21, 12:39 PM
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Questions for Repechage

Hello, regarding your comments about the differences between the handling of the 2 frames, for some reason I expected the handling of the earlier frame to be more, rather than less stable.

The difference in wheelbase length being one reason.

Could you please elaborate? I wouldn’t expect that 10mm in stem length change would make that much difference.

Thanks in advance!

Jacob Russell
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Old 11-26-21, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Jacob_R_59 View Post
Hello, regarding your comments about the differences between the handling of the 2 frames, for some reason I expected the handling of the earlier frame to be more, rather than less stable.

The difference in wheelbase length being one reason.

Could you please elaborate? I wouldn’t expect that 10mm in stem length change would make that much difference.

Thanks in advance!

Jacob Russell
Masi geometry changed.
For many of the Carlsbad era production bikes, ignoring the very small frames, the fork rake ( offset) was pretty big, by doing that the trail Decreased, counterintuitive but if one went to a online trail calculator- enter various fork offsets say between 45, 50, 55, 60mm you would find the trail decreases as the offset gets bigger.
By the San Marcos period, (Cinelli MC crown) and the later Henry James sourced lug set era, the geometry changes again and again, rake reduced, trail went up. I have bikes that represent all the eras.
the last GC, most likely by Joe Starck in the mid 80’s, is a totally different bike than one of the early bikes out of the Carlsbad plant.

what is better? Really depends on what you want. Stem length does also factor in a bit as does handlebar width. Riders are very adaptable. When I switch bikes I am hyper aware, but an hour in, one learns.

on especially steep descents with tight radius corners, (near my house) the GC with the big offset is less favored. One kind of feels the front wheel “flop”.

Even the Carlsbad bikes of the same size could be different, depended if the jig frames that Falerio sent over were used vs what Mario Confente was setting up the fixtures to.

there were a few other anomalies along the way, some bikes built by Dave Tesch look very much like his own 101 offerings, not a GC.
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Old 11-26-21, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Masi geometry changed.
For many of the Carlsbad era production bikes, ignoring the very small frames, the fork rake ( offset) was pretty big, by doing that the trail Decreased, counterintuitive but if one went to a online trail calculator- enter various fork offsets say between 45, 50, 55, 60mm you would find the trail decreases as the offset gets bigger.
By the San Marcos period, (Cinelli MC crown) and the later Henry James sourced lug set era, the geometry changes again and again, rake reduced, trail went up. I have bikes that represent all the eras.
the last GC, most likely by Joe Starck in the mid 80’s, is a totally different bike than one of the early bikes out of the Carlsbad plant.

what is better? Really depends on what you want. Stem length does also factor in a bit as does handlebar width. Riders are very adaptable. When I switch bikes I am hyper aware, but an hour in, one learns.

on especially steep descents with tight radius corners, (near my house) the GC with the big offset is less favored. One kind of feels the front wheel “flop”.

Even the Carlsbad bikes of the same size could be different, depended if the jig frames that Falerio sent over were used vs what Mario Confente was setting up the fixtures to.

there were a few other anomalies along the way, some bikes built by Dave Tesch look very much like his own 101 offerings, not a GC.
I believe you but man I struggle to comprehend concepts such as offset and front center distance.

I should post photos of my 1978 black California Masi GC. It is a beautiful frame that hardly gets ridden any more. There is slight dimpling of the down tube right behind the lower head tube lug from a crash. Back in the day (when I was in my late teens, early 20's) I always thought that this bike handled great.

I have a second, crash damaged GC a size 57 that has a slightly worse dimpling of both the top and down tubes behind the head tube upper and lower lugs. I am considering sending that to Jack at Franklin Frames for an estimate.
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Old 11-26-21, 11:35 AM
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1978 is in what I call the “dark days” period.
I have seen all kinds of configurations.
front forks where the pads on a normal reach brake are set all the way down.

really unclear who was driving the train.

Rob Roberson helped steady the ship when he was building at the “Ranch”, an outbuilding on the owner’s property in Rancho Santa Fe.

rare is the frame that gets pushed back and does not have some twist between the rear wheel plane and the steering tube axis.
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Old 11-26-21, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
I believe you but man I struggle to comprehend concepts such as offset and front center distance.

I should post photos of my 1978 black California Masi GC. It is a beautiful frame that hardly gets ridden any more. There is slight dimpling of the down tube right behind the lower head tube lug from a crash. Back in the day (when I was in my late teens, early 20's) I always thought that this bike handled great.

I have a second, crash damaged GC a size 57 that has a slightly worse dimpling of both the top and down tubes behind the head tube upper and lower lugs. I am considering sending that to Jack at Franklin Frames for an estimate.
your black GC probably handled a bit like a Gios from the 80’s - steep head angle and 58mm of offset on mine. Gios to be fair, also used short top tubes, a longer stem was needed I found to get the same contact position.
puts more weight on the front end.
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Old 11-26-21, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
your black GC probably handled a bit like a Gios from the 80’s - steep head angle and 58mm of offset on mine. Gios to be fair, also used short top tubes, a longer stem was needed I found to get the same contact position.
puts more weight on the front end.

Well because my black GC is a size "61" I believe my Cinelli stem is only a 9cm one (the frame is too big for me technically). I had the Cinelli #66 deep drop bars help me go lower. It has been a few years since I rode this bike - it is well preserved hidden away beneath my basement stairs. The MASI decal on the downtube is devoid of the "Gran Criterium" or flags but I know for a fact that it is a genuine California Masi and not a Nuovo Strada.
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Old 11-26-21, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Well because my black GC is a size "61" I believe my Cinelli stem is only a 9cm one (the frame is too big for me technically). I had the Cinelli #66 deep drop bars help me go lower. It has been a few years since I rode this bike - it is well preserved hidden away beneath my basement stairs. The MASI decal on the downtube is devoid of the "Gran Criterium" or flags but I know for a fact that it is a genuine California Masi and not a Nuovo Strada.
from somewhere in late 1977 to 1979 sometime was the "no flags" period. The Breaking Away bikes were also so decorated.
Most had only masi, a bit low on the tube to the horizon and most often in white, chainstay lettering fill colored varied too. The movie bikes had blue fill on the chainstays... with orange/red? odd choice.
My hunch was that they were using up what they had on hand and possibly saving partially "spoiled" sheets.
Lean times back then. The viability of the venture was on the bubble. A few received sections of tubing cut on an angle as top tube rear brake cable guides.
I had a Black GC from Carlsbad, I specified "no flags", and a number of other off menu changes. There were only two all Black bikes I knew of before 1977.
Then, it was a quiet option and not that common.
In late 1976 the new official color was California Burgundy. Thank Gian Simonetti for that one, and he took the color choice with him when he helped start Medici.
A good number of the "contract" built bikes, by Eisentraut or Lippy were in Burgundy.
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