Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Groupset tiers and diminishing returns

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Groupset tiers and diminishing returns

Old 09-14-21, 09:43 AM
  #226  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,790

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5066 Post(s)
Liked 4,355 Times in 2,451 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
I'm not compelled to answer snide questions from people who think they are good at inductive reasoning, but aren't.

Move on.
Thanks for proving my point with one more insult. It was a very straightforward (not snide) question you obviously are too insecure to answer.

We get it. Sorry about your status insecurity.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 09-14-21, 10:02 AM
  #227  
Kapusta
Cyclochondriac
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,678
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2037 Post(s)
Liked 1,410 Times in 808 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I've never noticed economists being particularly good with the nuances of language. You're the one in denial that this has anything to do with economics.

Let's put it simply--why can't you answer a very simple question without an accusation or a put-down?
Good lord. Give it a rest.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 09-14-21, 10:09 AM
  #228  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,790

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5066 Post(s)
Liked 4,355 Times in 2,451 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Good lord. Give it a rest.

From YOU in THIS thread?!?! That's hilarious.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 09-14-21, 10:45 AM
  #229  
Kapusta
Cyclochondriac
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,678
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2037 Post(s)
Liked 1,410 Times in 808 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
From YOU in THIS thread?!?! That's hilarious.
The debate I was in actually had a point (whether something can be lighter without being weaker).

You just canít handle people making purchasing decisions you canít understand, and have not let it rest for 10 pages.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 09-14-21, 11:08 AM
  #230  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,999
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3866 Post(s)
Liked 5,103 Times in 2,256 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Again, would you have paid $1 million for Di2?
Again, even the most uninformed cyclist would know that it doesn't cost even 1% of that amount...Which is why your question is so ridiculous.
Koyote is offline  
Old 09-14-21, 11:15 AM
  #231  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,790

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5066 Post(s)
Liked 4,355 Times in 2,451 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
The debate I was in actually had a point (whether something can be lighter without being weaker).

You just canít handle people making purchasing decisions you canít understand, and have not let it rest for 10 pages.

BS. I asked a simple question, and had a bunch of this condescending insult crud thrown at me.

Thanks for adding to it.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 09-14-21, 11:52 AM
  #232  
TX_master
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked 10 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
Now that "cost no object" has been dealt with, it looks like you are in the same position as most of us, trying to decide if DA is worth the substantial premium over Ultegra. With cost as part of the equation, I've generally settled for Ultegra unless I'm buying used components. DA is obviously lighter, better finished and other than possibly titanium cogs, no evidence it is less durable. In a nutshell, it is better. IMO however, the price difference exceeds any qualitative difference. I think this may be intentional, Shimano choosing to position DA as aspirational rather than just another step up the product tier. Cost no object=DuraAce. Not a 1%er=Ultegra. Don't know if this is the same with SRAM or Campy.
I tend to agree with this. The fact that DA comes w/a 3yr warranty vs. 2 yrs for Ultegra/105 could possibly be a reflection that Shimano expects it to be that much more durable than the lower tiers despite the expectation it would likley be more heavily used. But I think its also possible that the extra year is intended to instill peace of mind in the buyer in case there is a problem. For a lot of people price isn't a barrier to entry, but $2K is still $2K any way you look at it. That said I've owned everything from Campy Record to 105 and never had a problem with any of it.
TX_master is offline  
Old 09-14-21, 11:56 AM
  #233  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,790

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5066 Post(s)
Liked 4,355 Times in 2,451 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Again, even the most uninformed cyclist would know that it doesn't cost even 1% of that amount...Which is why your question is so ridiculous.

My question was if, as the poster said, whether it was worth it was not the question, then what was the question.
I simply used the extreme case to illustrate that what he was saying could not be literally true.

So tell me, if he isn't considering worth, what is he considering in making this spending decision? Why is that a ridiculous question?

Quit focusing on the extreme example, it's deliberately ridiculous to show you can't possibly mean what you're actually saying. It's a reductio ad absurdum argument. You're an academic, you should understand one when you see one.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 09-14-21, 11:58 AM
  #234  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 13,057

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6290 Post(s)
Liked 1,218 Times in 698 Posts
Okay folks .... when even I step away from a thread because it has become mindlessly contentious .... you are below rock bottom.

You might be capable of worse, but I won't be here to see it. And before this I thought I was the worst ......

Maelochs is offline  
Old 09-14-21, 01:00 PM
  #235  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 7,335

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3917 Post(s)
Liked 963 Times in 644 Posts
Originally Posted by TX_master View Post
I tend to agree with this. The fact that DA comes w/a 3yr warranty vs. 2 yrs for Ultegra/105 could possibly be a reflection that Shimano expects it to be that much more durable than the lower tiers despite the expectation it would likley be more heavily used. .
Or could just be some type of actuarial science applied where they've figured out that some portion of the increased product cost will more than offset the possible increase in warranty claims, while adding a perceived benefit to the purchasers decision making process.
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 09-14-21, 02:21 PM
  #236  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,790

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5066 Post(s)
Liked 4,355 Times in 2,451 Posts
Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Or could just be some type of actuarial science applied where they've figured out that some portion of the increased product cost will more than offset the possible increase in warranty claims, while adding a perceived benefit to the purchasers decision making process.

I could see that--it's possibly just a marketing-driven distinction.

I doubt there's all that many failures in the 3rd year anyway. The manufacturing faults probably shake out primarily in the first year.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 09-14-21, 06:03 PM
  #237  
PeteHski
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 1,560
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 745 Post(s)
Liked 722 Times in 479 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
No you don't understand. The statement that 105 has the highest performance/cost does not equate with the statement that Dura Ace has no objective benefit over 105.

Just because the quotient is not higher, does not mean the numerator is not higher.
So what are the objective benefits of DA over 105/Ultegra? There's a bit of weight saving (which doesn't interest me) and what else exactly? What is it doing for you to make you love it more than 105?
PeteHski is offline  
Old 09-14-21, 08:35 PM
  #238  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,250

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3048 Post(s)
Liked 1,945 Times in 1,165 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
So what are the objective benefits of DA over 105/Ultegra? There's a bit of weight saving (which doesn't interest me) and what else exactly? What is it doing for you to make you love it more than 105?
Interesting. you start out looking for something "objective" but before we get to the end, we find it's about what interests you. So I guess when you write "objective", you mean the opposite, "subjective".

(Some other guy on this thread would pull out his fancy "reducto ad absurdum" and tell you that you would care about weight if the difference were a million pounds, thereby concluding that you were not telling the truth about caring about weight. But that indeed would be absurd. The small difference in weight between DA and Ultegra doesn't matter to you. I have no interest in convincing you otherwise)

I have no idea what subjective benefits DA has that might interest you, so.I won't try.

Speaking personally and without regard for whether or not this impresses you or anybody else, I would simply point out that I was not buying a groupset, but rather a bike that came with a groupset. So the bike that came with DA had many other features that I sought, and in addition I was happy to be getting the the drive train that was light weight and had DI2 (available also with Ultegra, but not 105). The price differential between the DA bike with additional components that I wanted and the bikes with other groupsets and different sets of those other components was within a range that was not consequential to my decision.

I own 2 bikes with different vintage DA drive trains. I own 3 bikes with different vintage 105 drive trains (well, one of those is GRX 600, but that's approximately 105 level). I'm mostly happy with them all except for the oldest 105, which I think is 5600, and doesn't shift nearly as smoothly as, say, the mid-aged 105, which is 5800 and really pretty great. But the 5800 doesn't shift as smoothly as the 9150. Well, of course not, it's not electronic.

The DA bikes are much lighter than the others - both around 15 lbs. The specific weight of the drive trains isn't really how I think of it, but rather, it's the overall weight of the bikes. To make a light bike, you need to shave a little here, a little there. Each individual choice (this wheel vs. that wheel, this drive train vs. that) is small, but the accrued difference is larger.

Last edited by MinnMan; 09-14-21 at 08:42 PM.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 09-15-21, 04:22 AM
  #239  
PeteHski
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 1,560
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 745 Post(s)
Liked 722 Times in 479 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Interesting. you start out looking for something "objective" but before we get to the end, we find it's about what interests you. So I guess when you write "objective", you mean the opposite, "subjective".

(Some other guy on this thread would pull out his fancy "reducto ad absurdum" and tell you that you would care about weight if the difference were a million pounds, thereby concluding that you were not telling the truth about caring about weight. But that indeed would be absurd. The small difference in weight between DA and Ultegra doesn't matter to you. I have no interest in convincing you otherwise)

I have no idea what subjective benefits DA has that might interest you, so.I won't try.

Speaking personally and without regard for whether or not this impresses you or anybody else, I would simply point out that I was not buying a groupset, but rather a bike that came with a groupset. So the bike that came with DA had many other features that I sought, and in addition I was happy to be getting the the drive train that was light weight and had DI2 (available also with Ultegra, but not 105). The price differential between the DA bike with additional components that I wanted and the bikes with other groupsets and different sets of those other components was within a range that was not consequential to my decision.

I own 2 bikes with different vintage DA drive trains. I own 3 bikes with different vintage 105 drive trains (well, one of those is GRX 600, but that's approximately 105 level). I'm mostly happy with them all except for the oldest 105, which I think is 5600, and doesn't shift nearly as smoothly as, say, the mid-aged 105, which is 5800 and really pretty great. But the 5800 doesn't shift as smoothly as the 9150. Well, of course not, it's not electronic.

The DA bikes are much lighter than the others - both around 15 lbs. The specific weight of the drive trains isn't really how I think of it, but rather, it's the overall weight of the bikes. To make a light bike, you need to shave a little here, a little there. Each individual choice (this wheel vs. that wheel, this drive train vs. that) is small, but the accrued difference is larger.
Well you only had to read post #1 to see that I was looking for any objective advantages excluding weight, which I already know all about.

Now you've bothered to explain how you ended up with DA on your bike, rather than leave it to my imagination, it actually makes a lot of sense. I would probably have done the same if buying a complete off-the-peg bike.
Di2 would have pushed me to at least Ultegra level Shimano for the reasons you mentioned. Current bike has 105 7000, which is really hard to fault after 16,000 km with no adjustment required. But would like to try electronic Shimano (but won't be on this particular bike now)
I also agree how incremental weight can all add up. I'm aiming for an approx. 16 lb overall build, but it's not critical and won't affect my groupset choice in this case.
PeteHski is offline  
Old 09-15-21, 05:16 AM
  #240  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,790

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5066 Post(s)
Liked 4,355 Times in 2,451 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Interesting. you start out looking for something "objective" but before we get to the end, we find it's about what interests you. So I guess when you write "objective", you mean the opposite, "subjective".

(Some other guy on this thread would pull out his fancy "reducto ad absurdum" and tell you that you would care about weight if the difference were a million pounds, thereby concluding that you were not telling the truth about caring about weight. But that indeed would be absurd. The small difference in weight between DA and Ultegra doesn't matter to you.
No I wouldn't because Peter has been extremely clear what he was looking for in information. He didn't trip over himself demonstrating how important it was to him that everyone know that weight doesn't matter to him. You were making a statement that you didn't consider whether it was "worth it". That's an implausible statement on its face, and you've now clarified. The range was small enough that you didn't care about it. And you go on to give a perfectly reasonable description of your priorities and how those qualities match YOUR criteria. Instead of insulting me, you could have explained this several posts ago.

​​​​​
livedarklions is offline  
Old 09-15-21, 05:24 AM
  #241  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,790

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5066 Post(s)
Liked 4,355 Times in 2,451 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
The debate I was in actually had a point (whether something can be lighter without being weaker).

You just canít handle people making purchasing decisions you canít understand, and have not let it rest for 10 pages.
No that wasn't the "debate". Peter just asked whether the weight difference made the components less durable, and you went nuts on him for even asking the question. And you did pile on in the absurd "money is no object" diatribes. Something about Peter "digging a hole" if I recall.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 09-15-21, 05:42 AM
  #242  
gpburdell
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked 17 Times in 13 Posts
This thread. Wow. Reminds me of a room full of preschoolers who've missed their naps.
gpburdell is offline  
Likes For gpburdell:
Old 09-15-21, 07:17 AM
  #243  
Kapusta
Cyclochondriac
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,678
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2037 Post(s)
Liked 1,410 Times in 808 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
No that wasn't the "debate". Peter just asked whether the weight difference made the components less durable, and you went nuts on him for even asking the question. And you did pile on in the absurd "money is no object" diatribes. Something about Peter "digging a hole" if I recall.
Uhhh, no.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 09-15-21, 07:30 AM
  #244  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 13,057

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6290 Post(s)
Liked 1,218 Times in 698 Posts
Riding a bike is "better" than arguing on the Internet ..... for some folks.
Maelochs is offline  
Likes For Maelochs:
Old 09-15-21, 10:38 AM
  #245  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 13,129

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6070 Post(s)
Liked 3,227 Times in 1,864 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Riding a bike is "better" than arguing on the Internet ..... for some folks.
What? Thats an absurd claim! Only a moron would even think such a thing! I would suggest you put yourself in message board timeout for such a wrong comment, but instead- lets now take the next 3 pages to argue over a simple opinion as if it is fact!
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 09-15-21, 10:43 AM
  #246  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,999
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3866 Post(s)
Liked 5,103 Times in 2,256 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Riding a bike is "better" than arguing on the Internet ..... for some folks.
That depends. Does the bike have Dura Ace, or just Ultegra?
Koyote is offline  
Old 09-15-21, 11:07 AM
  #247  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 13,057

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6290 Post(s)
Liked 1,218 Times in 698 Posts
How about arguing about a bike with 12-speed DI2 versus riding a bike with 8000 Ultegra?

The imaginary bike is red.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 09-15-21, 11:09 AM
  #248  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,999
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3866 Post(s)
Liked 5,103 Times in 2,256 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
How about arguing about a bike with 12-speed DI2 versus riding a bike with 8000 Ultegra?

The imaginary bike is red.
I don't care which groupset is on it...I will always pick the red bike. And I don't mean SRAM Red.

You have found my weakness.
Koyote is offline  
Old 09-15-21, 01:42 PM
  #249  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,790

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5066 Post(s)
Liked 4,355 Times in 2,451 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
I don't care which groupset is on it...I will always pick the red bike. And I don't mean SRAM Red.

You have found my weakness.

I've always been partial to blue. I didn't find out until my 20s that was because it and yellow are the colors unaffected by my color blindness. I like red, but I just think it's less dramatic for me.

But I do understand red is super fast.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 09-15-21, 01:43 PM
  #250  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,790

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5066 Post(s)
Liked 4,355 Times in 2,451 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
How about arguing about a bike with 12-speed DI2 versus riding a bike with 8000 Ultegra?

The imaginary bike is red.

And named Harvey.
livedarklions is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.