Rdmonster69

I just need to find a good DA front derailleur and compact crank to replace the beastly big ring crank I bought ..... and a decent set of vintage DA shifters and I will finally be where I want to be. Di2 is something of dream for me right now....a touch too salty in the price dept.

seypat

That was my mistake, then. I didn't watch the video close enough. I thought the 54/40 was the only option. A person can get by on those if he rides the small sprockets/small ring and the big sprockets/big ring. Might be chainline issues though, I was riding the Hotter N Hell this past weekend with a 52/40 11/28. The wind was pretty strong most of the time. The 40 and 2 or 3 smallest sprockets were perfect in the wind. No real hills to speak of. I never got onto the 40/28. Out of the wind it was the 52 and something. Might be a tough ride for a high spinner. The heat/wind forced me into tri mode rolling along at a slower cadence. From around 90 rpms into the 60-70's.

mstateglfr 

A handful of months ago I listed to a podcast where Microshift's director of sales/marketing for north america was interviewed. It was an interesting interview because he was very up front with regard to discussing competition in the marketplace and where Microshift plays a role. The interview was predominantly about Microshift's X series shifting which is 1x for 9sp and 10sp because it comes in road and mtb forms and has its own cable pull that is unique to the X series products.
Anyways, the topic of hidden cables came up and the director of sales/marketing flat out said that it is something they have struggled to accomplish due to patents. I dont know what sort of patents Campy, Shimano, and SRAM have when it comes to routing the brake cable under tape, but something within the patents is keeping Microshift from routing the cable how they want/need.

So maybe itll take until 2026 or 2028 when I assume SRAM and Shimano's patents for routing under tape to run out?

seypat

A patent is what got Shimano past Suntour in the first place. They patented their Celeron pulley/jockey wheel and Suntour couldn't make anything close to it. That's why Shimano's indexed system shifted better, plain and simple. The rest is history.

Maelochs

None of those things were foisted on people who are willing to spend $6000-$12,000 for a bike every other year. Some of us buy bikes which actually last for decades.

I have a CF race frame built up with full Ultegra 6800. had it since 2015. Why would I bother to buy a replacement which was $3000 more and a few grams lighter? Discs are fine (have them on two bikes) but certainly not necessary. Certainly not worth trying to replace a bike which is really good and works really well.

I am not mad at Shimano, not am I mad at people like @Badger6, who seems snide about his ability to spend more on bikes than most people spend on cars in a three-year period. And I realize that Shimano knows there are people with lots of money who feel the need to buy the "Latest, Greatest" whether or not it is actually any better ....

I know that other manufacturers will fill the void. I am pretty much planning on going with Microshift when they release their Ultegra 6800 or 8000 clone group set ... and they will , because there will be a market for it.

WhyFi

Is there an assumption that Shimano, themselves, will not fill this void? I think it's a pretty safe bet that they'll have a mechanical, 11-speed group with both rim and disc versions, probably under the Tiagra label.

Racing Dan

True. If there is no mechanical Ultegra, Ultegra will be priced out of reach for most. Contrary, in mtb, anything between and including XTR and Deore is, as of today, available in 12s, mechanical. Weird.

I'm surprised the new 12s road groups didn't adopt microspline.

seypat

The void would be 12 speed mechanical.

Maelochs

Not clue if that is their plan. And if it is .... how much more will it weigh? Will it be Ultegra quality?

Tiagra is good -- I have 9- and 10-speed Tiagra on a couple frames---but nothing like Ultegra. Will Shimano upgrade Tiagra that much?

When one of my 6800 brifters broke, I could have replaced it with 105 for not a lot of cash, or with Ultegra for a healthy chunk .... while I ma not wealthy like Badger6, I had already spent the cash to build a good bike and I was not willing to cut corners. I went with the higher quality (and I know 105 well because I have it on two bikes.) If the potential "new" Tiagra isn't on par .... and if the new (equally potential) Microshift is....

But no one knows. Maybe Shimano figures people who are willing to spring for Ultegra or better, are willing to pay for and eager to buy DI, and won't offer an 11-speed alternative. I figure most people who are willing to spring for Ultegra are willing to go for, or are doing it specifically to get, DI ... based on the habits and comments of a group I rode with a little while back. So maybe 105 will be the only 11-speed mechanical, with maybe a DI option or maybe not.

For me, the question isn't about Tiagra, but whether Shimano will release an upgraded 105 with the weight and feel of Ultegra, at a 105 price. Again, no one knows.

genejockey 

I remember my Brother In Law, who got his parents' old Dodge Dart, and loved the car, drove it for years, saying, "How come Detroit doesn't make that car anymore? If they did, I'd buy one!" Like Dodge could have sold 1973 Darts in 1985.

That's what this discussion reminds me of. The people who are excited about these new groupsets, who are likely to buy a bike in the next year, and who have been "nursing" their five year old groupsets along waiting for this - they're the market that drives this. Guys like me who buy a new bike about once a decade? We're not the market. Shimano's not going to cater to us.

WhyFi

I was specifically addressing his mention of 6800 and R8000.

Maelochs

Based on what "serious" riders (riders who ride in pacelines and decide based on higher average speed and KOMs whether a ride was "good" or not) I know seem to want .... most want electronic shifting. Most bought the lowest range (most affordable) group set they could get with electronic shifting, Shimano or SRAM.

These are the folks who drive the market---the ones who see buying a new bike every couple years as a normal activity. They Want electronic shifting---so why would Shimano release a cheaper, mechanical version if it can convince its core customers to spend a little more to get what they want?

Shimano can save money and simplify production by not bothering with mech versions of its two upper tiers, and probably not lose many sales. Most people who buy a bike every five or ten years would probably be satisfied with mechanical 105 instead of dropping another grand for DI 12-speed.

IMO, as in all cases.

WhyFi

Shift quality of each group has typically improved with each generation, so I would imagine that, in terms of functional performance, a new Tiagra might be the equivalent of, or better than, 6800. From the sounds of it, though, you've got the unreal hope of (now) outdated specs being produced with the best materials, which is pretty silly. I wouldn't expect MicroShift to fill that specific of a void, either.

genejockey 

People say that, but I can't imagine better shifting than I get with 7800 shifters and RD, and a 7400 FD. Honestly, I DON'T get better shifting on R7000 105 than I get on much older DA.

Then again, I haven't tried Di2. Probably shouldn't, unless I win the lottery.

Maelochs

In terms of function, I really cannot tell 5800 from 6800 except in my imagination. I think Ultegra is a touch lighter but maybe that's placebo-thinking---it costs more, it must be better.

I guess I will buy a 7000- or 8000 equipped bike from Bikes Direct and strip the frame. If I ever need parts i cannot get elsewhere.

Sy Reene

Not sure Merlin is the best place to compare, but it's available. An Ultegra mech groupset only sells for about $240 more than 105. While a Di2 Ultegra groupset is priced at $1,400 more than 105 mech. That just strikes me as a pretty large gap/jump from one tier to the next.

Badger6

My total spend on bikes in the last 3 years is in between those two numbers you stated…and my total spend on cars has been $0, other than a few repairs and gas for the car my wife drives. I’m snide when people make statements that skyline themselves on the ridge of not understanding how capitalism works. It’s all about choices.

Badger6

That’s exactly what I’m saying. It’s how this works. I’m not saying they wouldn’t have continued to evolve the groups, but this huge leap is because they believe the market wants it based on their analytics. If there was no market for mechanical shifting, Shimano would have killed it off completely in 105 and Tiagra, which I am pretty sure won’t happen for a long time. That they dropped two tiers at once should be a clear indicator about where they think the market is and where it is headed, and how they see themselves going forward.

Bah Humbug

As long as we're discussing quality, does anyone get their fingertips cut up by rough edges all over the R7000 brifters? AFAF

Never say never (I remember seeing the Hyundai Pony), but MicroShift is quite a ways out from Shimano-level quality. Though if they can capitalize on the boom, they may be able to make some real progress.

Badger6

Now that I can get behind. Note, yuou’re the first person to cay that clearly. Usually it’s just members here complaining about how the manufacturers are forcing things people don’t want into the market. E.g., disc brakes and now electronic shifting. They did it because they are certain the market wants it. But, the cost, well, that’s are hard point to argue, because from the personal finance perspective it keeps raising the price of entry. That said, I’m betting that Shimano is banking that “normalization” of the pricing over time will overcome the initial objections that some folks rationally express.

Badger6

It is. But, they’re gonna need to up their quality game. The two sets I’ve worked on have been about 2.5 stars out of 5. They work, but not very good. Then again, let’s be really honest with ourselves…DA or Ulty Di2 aren’t aimed at folks who are looking to buy Microshift, or 105 for that matter.

And that’s the beauty of this thing. The market demands everything from cheap, even if quality is suspect, components all the way up to ultra light, razor sharp, buttery smooth shifting. Now if only the supply chains could get unscrewed.

Badger6

Everyone buying bikes drives the market. And, from what I can tell the market is very segmented. The people buying Ulegra and DA were buying more electronic shifting and discs over the last few years, and the bike manufacturers answered by providing more options with those things, and fewer without.

That said, Shimano is a HUGE company in terms of market share. Their core customer base ride bikes. Period. If it was as you suggest, they’d have killed all mechanical shifting, and not even offered rim brake options. They still sell Tiagra (which in current generation is as good as two generation old Ultegra, three generation old DA) and 105. No way to know the Shimano sales strategy, but I seriously doubt they will kill mechanical shifting, and I seriously doubt they’ll stop mechanical drivetrain development. Knowing how their “trickle down” technology approach works, there are at least 2 more upgrades to 105, three for Tiagra with CURRENT tech. I wouldn’t write them off anytime soon.

Mojo31

Have not noticed any rough edges on mine.

Bah Humbug

I said exactly that about discs. The price argument was always based on, for example, comparing R3 rim and R3 disc. There was no R2 disc, however, so the true price delta between “rim” and “disc” was much higher (and I’d be curious to see if they subsidized the disc price with the R3 premium, as carmakers do).

mstateglfr 

It was just funny that you seemed to blame people for not consuming enough new products as the reason for us being where we are.
Shimano makes a good enough product to last for years and years without replacing the product or bike its attached to, then you blame people for not purchasing enough bikes in recent years that are rim brake or mechanical shifting.
The mild scolding was what I found funny(and odd). Based on this thread, others interpreted your post in a similar manner too.


My view- this was going to happen because the company needs to continue to innovate and push new tech in order to stay relevant and sell. You can blame people for not purchasing bikes frequently enough, but its not like rim brake bikes were sitting unsold over the last few years and it definitely isnt like mechanical shifting bikes were sitting unsold over the last few years. Mechanical shifting bikes at the 105 and Ultegra levels were being sold left and right in shops and online, yet here we are. I cant say anything about DA because I dont remember the last time I saw a DA spec'd bike in a shop.

I am not complaining that Ultegra is now electric only, by the way. I chimed in only because I thought how you phrased your post was less than accurate.