le bici di jaco

I just returned from abroad after taking care of some loose ends and wanting to get around Europe again since I doubt I will have that chance in the near future; especially with the ever evolving COVID situation. I made it in and out just before countries started tightening on travel again; returned tested and clean!

I managed to pick up some more decent deals on frames and parts. Aside from this Cornelo, I got a Rauler frameset (bought strictly to resell in the future), a Vicini frameset (both frames from private sales), and more vintage parts: Campagnolo, Rino, and more.
This frame was bought from a dealer whom I bought the 'Cosme' frame from. As a repeat customer he gave me a good deal (I think?) at €200 including a Cornelo badged Cinelli stem. He told me that the frame was made by Colnago for sale by the Dutch company Cornelo. It has Italian bottom bracket threads, Cinelli 70mm shell, 27.2mm seat post, Campagnolo dropouts, Columbus fork w/reinforced steerer tube, 126mm rear fork spacing. Pretty cool paint job with very good chrome. I hope it is considered a good frame be it Colnago made or not. Certainly a lot cheaper than a Colnago if it is indeed their handiwork as I hope the details will prove it to be.

P!N20

I don’t believe Cornelo was made by Colnago, but they are highly regarded frames: https://saarf.london/category/how-to...nuine-colnago/

fabiofarelli

Cornelo is a Dutch brand from Kokke Sport in St.Willebrord. Made in Italy (and or Belgium, maybe ..) and sprayed in Belgium. Kokke was a Colnago-retailer in the Netherlands.
They did some (semi)professional sponsoring.

Bianchigirll 

Nice looking Cornelo. Unfortunately I am now not the only person to have one in the US.

I often refer to my Triomphe as a Fakenago owing to it’s corrugated tubing, but the Columbus TreTubi Alle. The seller, was apparently the owner of the shop clearing out old inventory. He did say they were built under contract but never actually said who. I assumed maybe Bilato? The corrugated tubes and ample chrome do make appear like a much higher level Machine like a Colnago .

This is after the shakedown ride. It might be a tad big but it is a great ride and I think, a real head turner.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...de-report.html

Bianchigirll 

So now I wonder if I have incognito Gilco tubes or a poorer cousin

This company [Cornelo] actually used Columbus Gilco tubing on a model, and the frames are highly regarded

himespau 

I have heard several people repeat the "Colnago made some (but not all) Cornelo frames" story, but I can't vouch for its veracity. There is also a US shop (I think in LA) that sold some bikes under its own branding that were supposedly made by Colnago.

fabiofarelli

There seems to be a very short period Kokke bought frames in China, quality could not be guaranteed so this stopped.
They had been using profiled C-18 tubing at least for a while, made by Tecnotrat.

repechage

the right European accent, a good story that pumps the brand…

himespau 

le bici di jaco

Thanks for the reference. I certainly have no idea if my frame has or has not been built by Colnago as a contract build (which Colnago did for other companies). It is certainly not a "fake" Colnago as implied by Saarf (would you engrave and label a timex to try an sell it as a rolex!) I reviewed "Saarf's" write-up and although I cannot dispute what it states, but I have found his statements in some cases to be a bit contradictory and in others to be incorrect based on the source referenced. I have no real experience in the vintage bike department so I have been trying to learn and research bikes before or upon buying. Since I just obtained a Rauler frameset (no question as to its authenticity) I had previously done some research prior to and after purchase to gain knowledge and insight on the marque. Saarf states the Rauler name was derived from the first name of Rauol (he spells it as "Raul") Gozzi and the first 2 letters of Ernesto Colnago's first name. When I referenced the source it merely linked me to another forum where Saarf copied what another individual posted without giving a reference to that specific information. I only wish I had noted the link or site (it may have been here) to where I found this direct quote from a write up titled "RAULER 1970-2020 FIFTY YEARS OF CYCLING HISTORY by RECLUS GOZZI" (Rauol's younger brother). Mr. Reclus Gozzi clearly states that the "Rauler" name was derived when "we decided to change the name of the company to "Rauler" which combined the name of my brother Rauol, who by was already known for his past as a cyclist in G. S. Bizmantova, and mine, Reclus ("Rauol and Reclus"). We registered the new name of the company "Rauler" at the Chamber of Commerce of Reggio Emilia."
This excerpt was translated by another, but nowhere is there any mention of Ernesto Colnago in regards to the naming of the Rauler marque as Saarf states on his website. I assume Sr. Gozzi knows how their company name was formed and trust his knowledge. I take everything on the Saarf site with a grain of salt, be it true or not. Given all that, I thankfully did not buy the frame assuming it to be a Colnago built frame. I have, after doing some more research (https://www.vintagefiets.be/en/neder...iaans-klinken/), found mention of the Kokke company obtaining frames built in Italy, implying Colnago, for final assembly inhouse; and where the name "Cornelo" was derived from the owner's son's name Corné (no mention of it partly deriving from Colnago's name as Saarf mentions). It does specifically state Cornelo buying Eddy Martens ("Martelly") Belgian frames. So no definitive proof from anything I found. Saarf says no Colnago built Cornelo bikes; the Dutch bike's site implies Colnago built frames (specifically mentions Colnago tie-in and Italian, and Belgian built frames), but there is no way to gauge what years they would had done it.
Another problem with Saarf is how he defines what a fake Colnago is in his opinion, and does not differentiate in what may have been owner modified from original (paint and/or decals) frame, or a custom ordered Colnago (specific braze-ons added or omitted, paint, chrome, etc.). In general just about every example mentioned or shown is a frame that is badged differently by decals and pantographs, fork crown, BB cutouts, etc.) without mention that the builders and/or sellers themselves were actively marketing the frames as being Colnago built. I consider a fake somthing that attempts to appear identical to the real thing and never strays from stating that it is the real thing and not a duplicate.
The Cornelo has charasteristics of Colnago frame features and yet differs. It doesn't mean it is or isn't Colnago built. It would make sense for Colnago to contsruct a frame that is not identical (aside from specific badging) in order to provide separation of product lines.
Again, it would be nice for it to be Colnago built, but there were many excellent framebuilders (e.g. Pettenella, Zanella, et al.) building Colnago frames at that time (80s) as good or better than Colnago regular "inhouse" builders so I am not concerned about its quality in form or function.

Bianchigirll 

Whateverhappenedtoparagraphs

Mackers

Cornelos having Gilco tubing is an urban myth just like them being built by Colnago.

The Triomphe was built by Tecnotrat using their in-house Profil SIX (Falck) tubeset.

unworthy1

another clue (take again with some grains skeptic's salt) is that any true product from Ernesto's builders and with his blessing would NOT have used any Cinelli frame bits: certainly not a BB shell! Ditto there would not have been any Cinelli stem (3TTTs only) on one.
No idea how much latitude any of his independent builders might have been permitted...especially if the Dutch buyers and the Italian contract-builders didn't inform Ernesto of their deal.

"...There is also a US shop (I think in LA) that sold some bikes under its own branding that were supposedly made by Colnago."
This is much more legit: Celo Europa frames which were marketed by Marcel Calborn (also spelled "Calbourne') and were certainly made by somebody who built for Ernesto in Italy. These have much stronger connections to Colnago and far less 'fakery" real or imagined. Calborn has had shops in several towns in Orange County, CA, current still-active shop is in Laguna Niguel, technically none are in LA City or county limits.

EDIT: I stand corrected about the use of a Cinelli BB shell on a (genuine) Colnago frame, apparently it DOES happen. But took a long time before you ever saw a genuine Cinelli lug or stem on any Colnago.
I once sold a Cinelli 1-A stem with "Colnago" pantograph to a bike shop here in SF, upon later visiting the same shop the owner/buyer said he determined it was a fake (anybody can have a any old name panto'd on whatever) but he sold it at a good profit to a 'Nago owner who didn't care.

le bici di jaco

Thanks unworthy1 ,

I certainly do not presume to know what builder made the frame. Even the seller made no definitive claim as to its origin (bought in Austria). The Dutch bike website implied that Cornelo frames were outsourced (Italy [Colnago?], and Belgium), and built up inhouse. Saarf states the bikes (presumably frame to complete bike) were made inhouse. Who knows if the stem was original from the Kokke shop or added later.

Did Colnago make their own BB shells, or were they outsourced and then cutout inhouse? I have no knowledge regarding that detail, only that they had various "Clubs" cutouts on most shells (I have seen examples of slotted shells also). If I get a Colnago, I believe I would ensure the shell has that feature as well as the lug cutouts.

There is a newly posted Colnago (I assume) on craigslist in my area, but no view of the BB shell; only 1 photo shown (poorly lit craiglist photo!). It appears to be a newer design (mid 80s?-00s?), but no reference as to a model. It is complete except for wheelset. I am considering buying since it is my size; but maybe too pricey at $700 (probably be gone soon anyways if I don't act quickly). I definitely need to sell the Rauler frameset if I purchase to keep the budget balanced. I will try to post the photo and see what others think as far as authenticity and value. It has Campy gear that I am not familiar with (can't really make out details). I asked for a BB shell bottom view and more photos from seller.

​​Bianchigirll Did I provide a proper paragraphical format?

le bici di jaco

[QUOTE=unworthy1;22329674]another clue (take again with some grains of a skeptic's salt) is that any true product from Ernesto's builders and with his blessing would NOT have used any Cinelli frame bits: certainly not a BB shell! Ditto there would not have been any Cinelli stem (3TTTs only) on one.

While researching a Colnago I came across some information from a 1981 USA Colnago dealer's catalogue. I could not upload it here, but here is the link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...0m9_j-GIgWJy0r

Transcription:

"Models, specifications:
We stock the two road racing models, Super
and Mexico. They are identical in every
respect except tubing (see chart). Both are
supplied with the following gear:

Campy BB cable tunnels, chain stay stop, lever bosses, Super Record dropouts that accept chain holder (not supplied). Campy dropout screws. Cinelli investment cast BB. Colnago engraved investment cast fork crown lugs and fork tips.

Measurements:
Fork: Ital thread 22.2mm 1.D. 26.4mm crown race
BB: Ital thread 70mm width
Seat tube: 27.2mm I.D.
Dropout width: Fr 100mm; Rr 126mm (for 6 spd)

Prices: frame & fork only
Super 49-65cm $425
Mexico 54-63cm$425.00"

I would assume that if Colnago was using Cinelli frame pieces in the early 80s for their own branded frames that they also used them for contract work they did for others. I am still not saying that any Cornelo frames were built by Colnago framebuilders, but it at least allows for the possibility regardless of the use Cinelli pieces (frame items and/or components) on a Cornelo frame. I guess Ernesto either allowed some frames to be made with Cinelli pieces (maybe just those exported outside of Italy), he was not aware that Cinelli pieces were utilized by his builders, or the catalogue was in error.

saarf

Hi
thanks for reading my blog
here’s a link to a fake colnago Cornelo

https://www.velosaloon.com/products/...from-the-1980s

just because Cornelo sourced some frames in Italy , with out proof , it is an assumption they are Colnago made . There are many companies that made frames in Italy .

It’s also pretty common knowledge the Rauler brothers used to work for Ernesto . They made the Arabesque lugs , and used similar lugs on their own version .

saarf

here’s link mentioning the Rauler / Colnago links
https://www.thespoken.cc/rauler-strada
”and Reclus, in the late 70s, the Rauler name is said to be a merger between Raul and the first two letters of Ernesto (Colnago). Rauler were originally contracted by Colnago to build frames under Ernesto’s marque until they parted ways in 1984, and were also responsible for Colnago’s pantography.

It’s also rumored that early Raulers were Ernesto’s inspiration to create his Arabesque frames. ”

hope this clears up your confusion

le bici di jaco

I am certainly not assuming anything regarding who built this frame which is the reason for this post; unfortunately the frame's origin will remain a mystery unless I can contact the outfitter and have them provide a definitive answer. It is common knowledge that the Colnago factory built frames for others (unadorned by any Colnago markings); and that there was a Cornelo-Colnago connection early in its inception however tangential it may have been. Since I do not have first hand knowledge (nor do you apparently), there is no assumption on my part that the frame in question was designed or built Colnago; but given the lack of evidence it cannot and should not be ruled out. If you are willing to use your connections with Colnago and directly ask them, if they, at any time, designed or built frames for Cornelo it would help enlighten everyone.

Given that the frame in the link is a Cornelo (quite obviously!), and was merely diguised by a previous owner (not the builder/outfitter) using decals to rebadge it, I do not consider it to be a fake Colnago, but merely someone's weak attempt to pass off another brand using decals only. If the bottom bracket shell and lugs had been cut-out in Colnago fashion, and the stay caps and fork had been pantograghed in a similar manner (but without the quailty of an authentic Colnago) then I would consider it to indeed be a fake frame. The only individuals who would be fooled by that frame would be basing it on decals alone. Anyone with an iota of vintage bike knowledge would not base the origin of a frame merely on decals. I have multiple examples of "fake" frames with well known builders' badging, but are obviously examples of others rebadging the frame (actual pantographs/cut-outs still readily identify the frames' original marques).

I, and I am certain that many others, value your knowledge and experience. I do wish that the origin of the "Rauler" name would be corrected in your blog in order to reflect the first hand knowledge of the men who created it. I am well aware of the connection to Colnago, but there is no connection to Colnago regarding the naming of the Rauler brand by their own words.

saarf

“Anyone with an iota of vintage bike knowledge would not base the origin of a frame merely on decals. I have multiple examples of "fake" frames with well known builders' badging, but are obviously examples of others rebadging the frame (actual pantographs/cut-outs still readily identify the frames' original marques).”
again , just your opinion , probably biased due to the fact (by your own admission) you “..have multiple examples of “fake” frames ..” I have none , all my bikes are original . The thing about “merely” adding different , more prestige brand decals is the pretence. Making out something is not what it is and selling it is fraud . A number of poorer quality frames have and are passed of as better brands just by changing decals.
Anything that pretends to be what it is not , is usually deemed fake .
It’s always a good read hearing owners of fakes fight their corner though .

Also it is an assumption to claim Colango made Colneros , just an anecdote without hard copy proof . Colner also had frames made in China , it may well be more Chinese than Italian .

saarf

here’s your prior reply before your long edit , made more sense

saarf

“I certainly not assuming
anything regarding who built
this frame which is the reason
for this post; unfortunately the
frame's origin will remain a
mystery unless I can contact
the outfitter and have them
provide a definitive answer.”

le bici di jaco

Well I know I never made any assumptions regarding Colner in my statement (I mever even mentioned the marque). I wonder why you did not question the Colnago company regarding some of the questions which have been discussed on this forum and others aboit the actual history of Colner. Same with the Rauler name which the builders claim as their own without any tie-in to Colnago's name. Coniderering the ambiguity that rrnains on many Italian marques' histories and specifics, I will just leave it all as a big ? (except the Rauler name origin of course which is documented by the brothers Gozzi). I am certainly not "fighting" for my "fakes" since it is clear what the actual frames are; they were merely branded (original livery, not repainted/redecaled by secondary/tertiary sellers) by the end seller for their own purpose. One being a "Gizeta" sold by shop owned by Gianni Zuffi, but an obvious Patelli brother build. This was common in Italy with shop owners at the time. Of course many teams/riders rebranded frames to satisfy sponsors.

saarf

Lol “this was common in Italy”
again , assumption , and writing your own narrative . I have not seen “teams/riders rebranded frames” , and if rebranded by anyone involved in sales , that is fraudulent .
Please check your spelling as well , it’s atrocious .

saarf

De Colnero fiets, in heel goede staat, is nog in de originele kleur en dus niet herschilderd. Colnero fietsen zijn van Belgische makelij. De echte Italianen hebben concurrentie van niet-Italiaanse merken als Capino, Colnero, Fangio, Venturelli, Zannata, Primorosso, Bercinni, Concorde, Diamant. Namen van Belgische of Nederlandse fabrikanten, die een iets exotischere merknaam wilden om beter te verkopen.

translated

The Colnero bicycle, in very good condition, is still in its original color and therefore not repainted. Colnero bicycles are made in Belgium. The real Italians have competition from non-Italian brands such as Capino, Colnero, Fangio, Venturelli, Zannata, Primorosso, Bercinni, Concorde, Diamant. Names of Belgian or Dutch manufacturers, who wanted a slightly more exotic brand name to sell better.

source

https://www.vinted.be/enfants/porteu...g-bespreekbaar

when it comes to Belgians , I listen to Belgians

saarf

“
"As for the name Colner well, just think of it ERnesto COLNago.. There is no doubt whatsoever that the frames were bought in and not manufactured by Colnago.”

ColnerÂ