Steel faster than carbon?
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I sometimes wondered how certain users managed to rack up so many posts into the tens of thousands, regardless of how long they've been active on the forum. This thread helps clarify as it's the same few long timers who need to come in every thread and try to criticize the OP, derail any conversation, and make the same jokes that weren't funny the 20th time they posted in every other new thread.
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https://www.bikeforums.net/search.php?searchid=14532761
...if there has been some point made about this topic, that has not already been made before, I would be overjoyed.
...if there has been some point made about this topic, that has not already been made before, I would be overjoyed.
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.
...in 2007 steel versus carbon, is there really a difference? only went 40 posts before people got bored with it.
Interest in the topic seems to have increased over the years, because...more recently, Steel versus Carbon - Total Weight went almost 550 posts before it died.
Back when we made the transition from wood to steel, I remember there was similar controversy. A lot of guys objected to cranks and pedals, too. Too mechanically complex, cost was excessive, extra weight to slow you down, etc, etc.
...in 2007 steel versus carbon, is there really a difference? only went 40 posts before people got bored with it.
Interest in the topic seems to have increased over the years, because...more recently, Steel versus Carbon - Total Weight went almost 550 posts before it died.
Back when we made the transition from wood to steel, I remember there was similar controversy. A lot of guys objected to cranks and pedals, too. Too mechanically complex, cost was excessive, extra weight to slow you down, etc, etc.
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Differences between two things (not just bikes, but almost any two things) can be hard to show if the tests aren't done carefully. Sometimes differences are large so even rough analyses can show the difference; but the smaller the difference, the more careful you have to be. In this particular case, it appears that the results are inconclusive because the experiments weren't conclusive.
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#108
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I swear to god, it's like some people have no scroll wheel on their mouse.
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"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
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#109
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P.S. In case you’ve never heard, name calling never strengthened anyone’s argument, it only weakened it. Two teachable moments for the price of one.
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Last edited by rsbob; 10-26-22 at 08:46 PM.
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Someone writes up an article, adds a couple of still photos, and charts knowing that someone out there will believe it because it aligns with a preconceived position.
Pretty bold statements with nothing other than the author's word that any of this even took place; no third party, no verification, nothing.
And somehow all this is true because he looks like he's going so fast.
John
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I won't promise to ignore an entire thread, but I will put you on my ignore list. It's not all that you asked for, but it's a start!
Precisely. A few scolds are complaining that a disingenuous poster with an agenda, who led with a couple "tests" that wouldn't pass muster in a middle school science fair, was not taken seriously. Apparently, scolds are also rubes.
Precisely. Even if the OP were serious, the topic has been hashed, re-hashed, vomited up and re-hashed again and again, ad infinitum. This is a prime example of why forums have search functions and why google exists.
The original poster here gave 'his' game away way back in his post #11: the original post was, of course, just a Trojan Horse for the good ole' 'Big Bike Scam' meme.
But, hey ... let's 'drill down' and 'lean in', as they (whoever they are) say. I had some fun actually going to and looking at the original 'test report' the op cited. Gold, Jerry, Gold!! I was impressed.
I maintain, therefore, that I have taken the op and his original post entirely seriously, through close and careful reading, and tried my best to exercise due diligence and respond intelligently and helpfully to the thread's subject.
But, hey ... let's 'drill down' and 'lean in', as they (whoever they are) say. I had some fun actually going to and looking at the original 'test report' the op cited. Gold, Jerry, Gold!! I was impressed.
I maintain, therefore, that I have taken the op and his original post entirely seriously, through close and careful reading, and tried my best to exercise due diligence and respond intelligently and helpfully to the thread's subject.
Precisely. Even if the OP were serious, the topic has been hashed, re-hashed, vomited up and re-hashed again and again, ad infinitum. This is a prime example of why forums have search functions and why google exists.
#112
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Weight has an almost negligible effect on speed except in the wheels but the frame can be 5-10lb heavier and if you calculate the bike should only be something like a few tenths of a mph faster in the flats. Even on hills it makes a bigger difference but thanks to the rolling of the wheels which takes away much of the work of moving the weight small differences in mass like that are nearly inconsequential.
Yet a bike that is 5lbs lighter than another bike all else being equal is going to be faster and the weight is a good proxy indicator for the extra speed even though the weight itself changes little. This is because a bike that is lighter is stiffer. The lighter means that the material can be made to flex less while being thinner hence the weight savings and it's that flexing less that allows more of your power to spin the wheels as opposed to moving the frame. So the weight is a good measurement for how fast a bike will be but not because it's lighter, but rather that lighter bikes are more efficient and thus faster.
The difference is often amplified because lighter bikes are also more expensive thus nicer so all the componentry will be better. You have better groupsets, as I said lighter wheels too and these items all put together also help to make the bike faster assuming same rider and same power output.
Aero makes a huge difference though. Maybe not the frame or the bar but your body position especially does. Try getting on the drops or if you have a flat bar bike just lean more forward you will go for same effort about ~2mph faster depending on speed.
Yet a bike that is 5lbs lighter than another bike all else being equal is going to be faster and the weight is a good proxy indicator for the extra speed even though the weight itself changes little. This is because a bike that is lighter is stiffer. The lighter means that the material can be made to flex less while being thinner hence the weight savings and it's that flexing less that allows more of your power to spin the wheels as opposed to moving the frame. So the weight is a good measurement for how fast a bike will be but not because it's lighter, but rather that lighter bikes are more efficient and thus faster.
The difference is often amplified because lighter bikes are also more expensive thus nicer so all the componentry will be better. You have better groupsets, as I said lighter wheels too and these items all put together also help to make the bike faster assuming same rider and same power output.
Aero makes a huge difference though. Maybe not the frame or the bar but your body position especially does. Try getting on the drops or if you have a flat bar bike just lean more forward you will go for same effort about ~2mph faster depending on speed.
Oh another MAJOR difference which has nothing to do with carbon or steel is the grearing for climbs. My largest cog on the steel bike is a 15/36. The carbon has a 36/34 for the hills. Doing 15% climbs on my old steel bike with that gearing was a challenge today. Maybe that’s why I hurt.
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#113
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Hmm. Strange you think I have an agenda. I'd been operating on the belief that carbon is superior to all metal frame materials as a race bike due to power transfer. I found a study that seemed to dispel this belief and was curious as to what caused it. In the proceeding post I provided an experiment that exemplified carbon was indeed superior to metal (this experiment was derided as well.) Why would I do that if I had an agenda? I'm just genuinely curious.
And while I do have issues with the modern bike industry, it's not due to the use of carbon fiber...
And while I do have issues with the modern bike industry, it's not due to the use of carbon fiber...
Last edited by amazinmets73; 10-26-22 at 09:33 PM.
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#114
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Yet a bike that is 5lbs lighter than another bike all else being equal is going to be faster and the weight is a good proxy indicator for the extra speed even though the weight itself changes little. This is because a bike that is lighter is stiffer. The lighter means that the material can be made to flex less while being thinner hence the weight savings and it's that flexing less that allows more of your power to spin the wheels as opposed to moving the frame. So the weight is a good measurement for how fast a bike will be but not because it's lighter, but rather that lighter bikes are more efficient and thus faster.
All else being equal, lighter = less stiff. That's true for frames, forks, rims, handlebars...Pretty much everything that goes into a bike. If it weren't true, my steel frames would all have tubes with .05mm wall thicknesses, and they'd be stiff as hell; in reality, such a frame would crumple under a lightweight rider before making it to the end of the driveway.
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<edited version>
Really guys, what is so hard about just ignoring a thread if you don't think it's worth your time? Why do you need to continue to pat yourselves on the back for how amazing you are as forum users?
... because you've derailed every previous thread on a topic and won't let one get by without your steering it away from actual discussion and into stupid arguments, and then complain about how all similar threads always end up with stupid arguments.
I sometimes wondered how certain users managed to rack up so many posts into the tens of thousands, regardless of how long they've been active on the forum. This thread helps clarify as it's the same few long timers who need to come in every thread and try to criticize the OP, derail any conversation, and make the same jokes that weren't funny the 20th time they posted in every other new thread.
Really guys, what is so hard about just ignoring a thread if you don't think it's worth your time? Why do you need to continue to pat yourselves on the back for how amazing you are as forum users?
... because you've derailed every previous thread on a topic and won't let one get by without your steering it away from actual discussion and into stupid arguments, and then complain about how all similar threads always end up with stupid arguments.
I sometimes wondered how certain users managed to rack up so many posts into the tens of thousands, regardless of how long they've been active on the forum. This thread helps clarify as it's the same few long timers who need to come in every thread and try to criticize the OP, derail any conversation, and make the same jokes that weren't funny the 20th time they posted in every other new thread.
Really, what would have been so hard about just ignoring this and all those other threads, instead of coming here to criticize other posters?
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#116
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NumbersGuy, don’t waste your breath or time on them, because they will just twist it around on you. Bullies and trolls can’t and won’t change their stripes no matter how logical your approach. BTDT. The best thing to do is put them on your Ignore list. It makes this a much more pleasant place.
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#119
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A "logical approach" would be to not read and respond to threads and or posts he didn't like.
I agree with you though .... the guy shouldn't waste his time or breath (or the skin of his fingertips) responding here.
As @badger1 noted ... the original post was not itself logical ... it was a joke of a post made by a person who wanted others to think for him .... or wanted to see others argue for his amusement.
If people want us to take jokes seriously .... well, that is their option.
#120
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So I recently completed a carbon bike build and I was really surprised at how comfortable the thing was. Much more than my Alu or steel bikes.
btw, between alu and steel I could tell no difference aside from the skinny tubes being a little nicer to carry. But full carbon there definitely is something there.
btw, between alu and steel I could tell no difference aside from the skinny tubes being a little nicer to carry. But full carbon there definitely is something there.
#121
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Francis? You know the best way and surest way to show you are kidding an not being a jerk is by putting a at the end of your phrases. I have seen you attack countless people and so your reputation colors what is written. So now you know. Let’s call this for you and your groupies a “teachable moment”.
P.S. In case you’ve never heard, name calling never strengthened anyone’s argument, it only weakened it. Two teachable moments for the price of one.
P.S. In case you’ve never heard, name calling never strengthened anyone’s argument, it only weakened it. Two teachable moments for the price of one.
Seriously, this is the funniest thing I've read in weeks. How could you possibly infer any kind of "attack" from a question about waving at dogs? I'm not doing emojis just because you have some sort of weird grudge against me that makes you act with offense at an obviously inoffensive silly question.
Now if you don't mind, your yelling at clouds is killing my groupies' buzz.
P.S. Your teachable moments are providing an example of how silly you get when you can't admit the joke went over your head and instead go on offense.
#122
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Those who can't do, teach. QED
BTW, "trolls can't and won't change their stripes" is a really terrible mixed metaphor. Two lessons for the price of one, indeed.
Last edited by livedarklions; 10-27-22 at 06:38 AM.
#123
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I've always wanted to see the results of, say an 18lbs steel racing bike with modern components and rim brakes matched against a 17lbs carbon aero bike with discs. Same for a 10 year old top-of-the-line 16lbs rim brake carbon bike vs the latest disc brake carbon wonder bike. The fact that bike manufacturers are reluctant to conduct these tests caused me to suspect the results wouldn't be to the likings of their profit margins.
The modern bike industry is a scam so far as I'm concerned.
The modern bike industry is a scam so far as I'm concerned.
Hmm. Strange you think I have an agenda. I'd been operating on the belief that carbon is superior to all metal frame materials as a race bike due to power transfer. I found a study that seemed to dispel this belief and was curious as to what caused it. In the proceeding post I provided an experiment that exemplified carbon was indeed superior to metal (this experiment was derided as well.) Why would I do that if I had an agenda? I'm just genuinely curious.
And while I do have issues with the modern bike industry, it's not due to the use of carbon fiber...
And while I do have issues with the modern bike industry, it's not due to the use of carbon fiber...
If you weren't trying to link the op "study" to a larger agenda about the bike industry, why would you post the above that makes that link explicit?
I'm going to take you at your word that you weren't just trolling for a fight, but you really are trying to evade responsibility for why it turned out that way. You posed a question in the op requesting an explanation of the results of the "study" you linked to. So far no problem. When it was pointed out to you that this was really just an incompetent attempt to draw conclusions from a completely dubious experimental setup, you moved the goalposts to demanding someone produce studies that disproved the assertions rather than seriously discussing how hard such a study would be to design.
I disagree with a lot of posters on this thread that the subject is already done. It makes sense to me to occasionally revisit a "x vs. y" issue because technologies, product lines and economies change over time, and we also get more experience with the newer technologies, so it's nice to get some more informed perspectives than were possible a few years ago. I think that's a serious conversation, but I don't think that's what you framed here when you won't concede that the people who bothered to take apart the "study" had a point.
I'm also getting rather sick of the holier than thou crowd that seems to believe that they are the only ones who can disagree with people's opinions without it being trolling. If you don't want to argue about your opinions, don't post them in a forum of people who obviously will have their own opinions.
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#124
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Let's talk about which chain lube is best or whether rim or disc brakes are better.
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