Flounce

I've experimented with all sorts of nutrition, including all liquid nutrition, and have found that I do best with solid foods are regular intervals, meaning every hour. By solid food I mean savory real food, not energy bars and convenience store potato chips or candy bars. So I've been making small seaweed wrapped rice balls containing egg and other things, I wrap them in saran wrap and put them in a zip lock bags that go in my front basket (yes, I use a wald basket instead of a boxy rando bag, because the latter won't fit under aero bars).

But on the 400km brevet I just rode, the experienced randos in my group did not use front bag and many did not use a frame bag or top tube bag either, many just had a saddle bag.

Because I don't like the way the weighted front end of my bike handles (yeah, I know it'd be improved with low trail fork etc, but let's not go there yet), I'm wondering how others do it.

If you eat solids (rather than being mainly liquid nutrition) on long brevets (I'm not talking about century rides, I'm talking 300km/190 miles and up),

1) what do you eat, and how often?
2) do you eat on the bike or only at stops?
3) how do you store your food so that you can access it while riding the bike (if that is what you do)?

thank you,
a

ThermionicScott 

I like dried apricots and salted almonds. They're not going to spoil or get too sticky on hot days, and provide energy and electrolytes. I start my grazing soon into the ride so that I never am digesting a lot of food at once, or trying to get down calories when I don't have an appetite.

I'm sure that there are some people who can get by with only eating and drinking at stops, but I'm definitely not one!

clasher

1) My favourite food on the bike is quaker breafkast squares, they hold up well in the heat and I seem to be able to eat them without getting sick of them. I don't eat them other than when I ride so that helps. The peanut butter kind have more protein so I mix up the flavours. Cliff bars are my backup but I tire of them after a while and prefer the "nut butter" kinds they sell even though they're more like candy. I can eat just about anything on a ride so I rely less and less on carrying food.
2) I eat the bars on the bike but if the stops are close together I might only bring a few bars, say on a 200k I'd probably only take a few as "just in case" snacks. Often I finish with a couple leftover. Longer rides or those with unpalatable food at the controls will require more bars, or I will scope out grocery stores to re-stock.
3) I use a Dill Pickle Handlebar bag, it's small enough that it doesn't seem to affect my bike's handling too much that I notice it. Some people must be pickier than me about this kind of stuff though. On shorter rides, or those with a lot of controls I don't even bring the bag and just carry a bar or two in my jersey pockets, the sun makes the quaker bars taste a bit like warm pie.

jlippinbike

FLOUNCE wrote:
If you eat solids (rather than being mainly liquid nutrition) on long brevets (I'm not talking about century rides, I'm talking 300km/190 miles and up), 1) what do you eat, and how often? 2) do you eat on the bike or only at stops? And 3) how do you store your food so that you can access it while riding the bike (if that is what you do)?

JLIPPINBIKE's response:
Let me say at the outset that I am gluten sensitive. I don't have the luxury of being able to eat anything I can get my hands on the way I used to up to about three years ago. I don't use a handlebar bag, but I do usually wear a small knapsack in which I carry things I might want to get at while riding. I usually am wearing a cycling jersey with rear pockets, but it's not comfortable to stuff the jersey pockets when I'm wearing a knapsack. So the food I carry is stored in the knapsack.

In my racing days I carried food in my jersey pockets and would feed whenever I needed energy. Just reached into my jersey pockets and pulled out the food. But randonneuring is not a race, at least that's what a lot of people say. I don't think it's like racing, but there is a race element to it – at least to me. When I'm riding with others I have problems getting at my food if I get hungry between controles. But I live with it. When I'm riding alone (I've been dropped, or am off the front), then I don't think twice to stop and open my knapsack to get at some goodies.

I typically like to take in calories from some other place than my bottles every 45 miles or so. If the controles are 45 miles apart, then I'm stocking up on calories during my stops at the controles. But if the controles are more than 45 miles apart, then I will probably stop for a few minutes as if I'm at a controle and raid my stash of food in my knapsack. I drink a lot of whole milk during rides. So when I stop at a controle I typically will buy a half gallon of whole milk and maybe a packet of peanut butter cups. I eat the sweets and usually drink half the container of milk. The other half will go in my knapsack to be consumed during the ride before I get to the next controle.

What food do I store in my knapsack so I can eat at mile 45 if no controle exists? My staples are ripe bananas and non-chopped walnuts. I can never eat too much of either of these foods. They generally do not spoil during a ride, they aren't messy to handle, and they don't taste bad even when not cool. Fancy food I consume in the morning before the day's ride begins, and fancy food I consume at the end of the ride for the day. When I say “fancy food” I mean a full breakfast or full dinner.

You mention in your question that you like to eat every 45 minutes. That's sound too often to me. It sounds like you suffer from insulin resistance and when your carbs runs out you need another “fix” of carbs. Sounds kind of like having a 20 gallon automobile gas tank and you pull over at a filling station every time your tank is 15 gallons full. I think it is smarter to fill up when the tank gets close to empty. Ideally as an endurance athlete you should not be so dependent on carbs as your energy source. Your body should be trained to burn fat as your main energy source. When consumed fat calories run out during a ride your body should be able to switch to burning stored body fat for energy. If it can, then you don't need to worry too much about consuming calories. You will need liquids and electrolytes, though. If the course is particularly demanding (very hilly), then you will need carbs, too. But the amount of carbs you need will depend on how hard you have to work to get over the hills. Hills usually make a rider perform above their threshold. And those efforts require the burning of carbs. But when you ride below threshold you don't need carbs all that much to ride well.

Flounce

Thanks all. Appreciate the details, Jlippinbike.

Thermionic and Clasher: Since you two are eating smaller things on the bike - breakfast squares, cliff bars, dried apricots and almonds.... are you eating something more substantial at the controls? I try to get 200-300 calories per hour and that seems hard to do from only the above foods.

Jlippinbike is right I think, that I rely much on carbs, especially recently when I haven't been putting in lots of miles and when I do ride they are short and fast or hill climbing. I've been riding once a week for the past two to three months, and was a little nuts to do the 400km (but I finished it).

Spoonrobot 

I recently switched from a front rack with boxy-bag to frame bags. I did it mainly to save weight and be slightly more aero. The bike is higher trail but the handling was something I was able to adapt to fairly well.

I currently use a frame bag (revelate tangle) and a small top tube bag (xlab stealth pocket 100c). The top tube bag can hold two gels and two clif bars. Frame bag holds my tools and clothes and usually has room for 2-3 mcdonald's hamburgers as well as 4-5 clif bars. I can open both and rummage around with no problem while riding. I'm also thinking of adding a revelate mountain feedbag to my handlebar for additional storage but I'm not sure if it's better to buy food or carry more on the bike.

My usual progression is clif bars every hour or so interspersed with other sports bars like clif mojo bars or lara bars. This works for the first 10 hours or so - after that I start adding in more real food like mcdonalds hamburgers (lol), sodas and chocolate milk. I prefer to eat while moving and usually spend as little time in controls as possible. The more time I spend off the bike the harder it is for me to get riding again.

jlippinbike

SPOONROBOT wrote: I prefer to eat while moving and usually spend as little time in controls as possible. The more time I spend off the bike the harder it is for me to get riding again.

JLIPPINBIKE's response: This goes for me, too. I keep controle time to a minimum. This is why I only drink half the half gallon of milk while at the controle. Often times it means I have to leave the group I was riding with.

jlippinbike

FLOUNCE wrote: I try to get 200-300 calories per hour and that seems hard to do from only the above foods.

JLIPPINBIKE's response:
I don't know about you, but I have to run on a treadmill well above my threshold for an hour to burn 300 calories. And endurance activities are not meant to be performed well above one's threshold. It is my opinion that if you are wanting to consume 300 calories every hour, then that is too much.

If your body naturally burns fat for energy during endurance events, then the only calories you need to consume during the ride are carbs since your body has a limited storage capacity for carbs. But 300k rides and longer are not bike legs in an ironman competition. Doing rando rides will not burn 300 calories of carbs an hour.

Flounce

Thanks, that is helpful. I will consume less and get more base training in, to burn fat more efficiently.

If I don't have to carry so much food, that makes things easier.

Spoonrobot 

You need to investigate further, caloric needs can be personal and often differ vastly between people of even similar size. You're always burning fat and IMO/E becoming truly fat adapted is not as easy or as worthwhile as it's generally made out to be.

When I first started distance riding I needed to eat a lot more than I do now, I followed the recommendations here but as I've gotten more adapted to long endurance riding I can eat less. John Hughes is one of the authors listed at the earlier link, he's very active on the randon mailing list as well as his own website has a lot of helpful stuff here.

Height/weight play a factor in caloric need as well. 200-300 calories for an hour is not very high for someone 5'9"/170 lbs or above riding at a reasonably brisk z2/z3 pace. I cannot maintain the pace I want on only 200 calories an hour. I need at least 280 for z3 riding that I prefer to get the speed I want. Much higher if I start adding in short z4/z5 efforts and significantly higher for any racing efforts.

I will say it's much easier to carry less food by weighing less. When I was 15-20 pounds lighter than I am now I needed much less food and much much less water while riding faster for the same distance. This probably isn't helpful but it's still true, if only I could stop riding long enough to lose some weight

Flounce

The reason I moved to eating hourly was that previously I was bonking all the time, and always at the end. So I switched to solid foods and eating them frequently and regularly, and I dont bonk anymore, so that's good. I'll try to decrease how much I eat during rides and see how it goes. I am now 194-199 lbs, 6 foot 1, broad shouldered, on the muscular/lean side e.g. slim fit shirts etc. If I go nuts and restrict carbs/caloric intake for a while, I can get down to 189 but I am not a happy camper like that.

Flounce

jlippinbike, what is good knapsack for ultra long distance?

jlippinbike

FLOUNCE wrote: jlippinbike, what is good knapsack for ultra long distance?

JLIPPINBIKE's response:
You can read my Amazon “review” for the bag I swear by. See https://www.amazon.com/gp/review/R2K..._=glimp_1rv_cl

Flounce

If I get a knapsack, maybe I'll get that one. It does seems like a lot of money. What about it specifically do you like? Does your back get sweaty? Thanks.

jlippinbike

FLOUNCE wrote: The reason I moved to eating hourly was that previously I was bonking all the time, and always at the end.

JLIPPINBIKE's response:
About four years back I met a 5'7'' female triathlete at my fitness center's pool. She only weighed 119 pounds, and she sucked at swimming. My introductory line to her was with her tan lines on her thighs she looked like she was a cyclist. She replied that she was a tri-auth-lete. I laughed. I talked her into swimming with me if I could go for a bike ride or two with her. We rode a whole winter together every weekend. Each ride was 65 miles and super hilly since she loved hills. I'm kind of vertically challenged. And at the time I wasn't eating or drinking much on rides. She killed me on the rides – especially toward the end when I was “bonking.” I was annoyed to say the least. A former US national champion cyclist on the bike getting whupped by a little skinny gal who can't swim.

So what did I do? I researched this thing called “bonking.” Turns out a bonk is not exactly what I thought it was. I thought a bonk was running out of food or energy to support my physical activity. But that's not exactly true. A bonk is when your glycogen stores of carbs deplete down to nothing and thus you don't have enough glucose in your blood to support proper brain function. As I've said elsewhere, your body only has a limited ability to store carbs for energy use. And it's not so easy to replenish the glycogen stores. Regardless of your size and energy requirements I think I'm correct in saying you can only replenish something like 350 calories of carbs an hour. And if you get sloppy during a long ride replenishing carbs, then toward the end of the ride you will bonk.

The secret to avoiding bonks is to avoid many efforts during your rides that go above your threshold capacity. If you stay below your threshold, then the body won't use much of its glycogen stores. The brain will be fed. Everything will work great. But if you ride at threshold or above, then you deplete your glycogen stores. Then you will need to replenish them. When I was riding with Miss Tiny I had to bust my ass to keep up with her in the hills. And thus, by the end of the ride I was glycogen depleted since I wasn't eating all that much during the ride because I was more focused on trying to keep up with her.

By the way, this Miss Tiny was on a RAAM relay team back in 2014 that now holds the course record for their category. Took the team of four 5 days and 21 hours to go the 3020 miles. So she's no slouch on a bike.

So you might think loading up on carbs every hour is going to solve your problem. But it won't because the body will use those carbs for most of its energy requirements since that is all you are feeding it. This will cause the body to ignore the burning of fat, and especially stored body fat when you have burned all the food consumed recently.

So what do you need to strive to do? You have to figure out how fast you can go without the need to use up your glycogen stores. As long as you are not depleting your glycogen stores down to zero during rides, then you won't bonk. Moral of the story: you need to slow down a little bit during your rides so your body doesn't deplete your glycogen stores. That way you won't bonk.

jlippinbike

FLOUNCE wrote: If I get a knapsack, maybe I'll get that one. It does seems like a lot of money. What about it specifically do you like? Does your back get sweaty? Thanks.

JILIPPINBIKE's response: It's expensive because it is really well made. It's very comfortable, and it's very small but still holds everything I need. I think it was designed and made for ultra distance runners. It's definitely a specialty item. It's not an average knapsack.

No, my back does not get sweaty. Oh, by the way, one of things I like about a knapsack is I can grab the straps when I'm riding no-handed on the bike. That's very relaxing for me. My arms don't have to dangle while I ride no-handed.

clasher

Sometimes I will grab a meal if it's close to lunch but often times I just have a bagel, or for supper I'll get a veggie burger if available. I'm a vegan so there's often only that option or if I'm lucky tacos. I like olives and almonds too but I don't really eat a lot of them on a rando ride. I mostly just eat whatever I can find and enough to keep hunger at bay. I don't really put too much more thought into it anymore... I started out making rice balls and bringing malto-dextrin powder but it didn't seem to make much difference to me. If I do eat a meal I usually lay off the bars for a few hours after that. I

I rode my first 1200 with a guy that was low carb (or keto?) and between the two of us we could usually split up a breakfast special easily enough. Both of us finished the 1200 fine and we both could have used more training. There's a few low-carb people in our rando group but most people just eat standard western diets and manage to finish fine.

In my limited experience (only my 4th season) with rando I can't say I have ever bonked on a ride and I don't think I've ever bonked cycling either. I've had some close calls with dehydration, both on the bike and at work. I think if you're bonking it might be better to dial the effort back and take advantage of the generous time limits on brevets.

I did about a 1000k of riding last year in Alberta and BC during a heatwave; I rode the whole time with a small camelbak and didn't find it bothersome, despite it being a bit snug on my big chest. I am probably gonna take it with me on the cascade 1200 this year since eastern Washington is similar to eastern BC and western Alberta with the dry heat. I think using the camelbak in Ontario where it is much more humid would be worse, but water stops are plentiful around here too so I've never tried it.

Flounce

After my experiences with bonking, I did decrease my level of effort on long rides by looking at HR.

I've been using Maffetone's rule as an basic way to determine maximum aerobic heart rate.

https://philmaffetone.com/180-formula/

For me, that comes out to 135 bpm, so I try to stay at 125-135bpm on my long rides and when doing base training. I feel pretty good in that range. Does that sound about right?

atwl77

We typically eat local food, e.g. whatever's available at the restaurants/stalls/coffee shops/etc, either at the checkpoints, or planned stops after examining the route, or randomly whenever someone in the group wants to make a stop and/or we come across a random place to stop (petrol station, coffee shop, roadside stall, etc).


As for how often, usually they are approximately timed around standard meal times (breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, supper), plus the perhaps something in between.


We also often carry bananas or bread (such as these four flavoured buns pictured at the bottom row: Gardenia Bakeries (KL) Sdn Bhd ) which are often carried in the back jersey pocket, to eat on the bike or at quick stops (e.g. toilet breaks). I know some randonneurs who also carry a ziplock bag filled with dried nuts and fruit.

A mix of both, though on the bike is usually light stuff only (bread, snacks, protein bars, etc) and we get off the bike for heavier meals.

Rear jersey pocket or top tube bag for easy access. In my recent 300k I also observed some randonneurs taping food to the top tube (usually bread or protein bars).

Carbonfiberboy 

This isn't exactly true. One is only above threshold for a tiny proportion of a brevet, if at all. Maybe 20 minutes, max. The rest of the time one is burning a mix of fat and carbs. The amount of fat burned is determined by training, not the amount of carbs eaten during an event. The carbs you don't eat must come from glycogen, no matter the intensity. Therefore the more carbs you eat, the less glycogen burned and the longer you last or the less the chance of bonking.

That's the reason that LD racers train their digestions to process as many carb calories per hour as they can. 100 grams of carbs an hour is not unknown. The question for the rider is what carbs and how frequently. Once an hour is certainly not optimal, in fact not a good idea. Every 15 minutes is ideal.

Of course the above is only advice for those who are trying for a good brevet time. If you're just trying to have fun and not go over, it's not an issue. I have a fast friend who simply doesn't bother going out of zone 2 on a brevet and he still gets good times, which are frequently more about staying on the bike than bike speed.

It's not good if you have to stop to eat, period, unless you can do the deed while waiting for your card to be signed. I have another friend who solves that problem by drinking a quart of chocolate milk while waiting at a control. I prefer to have a Hostess Fruit Pie, 3 minutes max.

79pmooney

I haven't done brevets but a solid food I have taken often for epic adventures are sandwiches of honey, PB, cheese and mustard. I make them up and put them in jiffy bags, sucking the air out as I seal them. Good for 24 hours easily until opening. I find also they are filling, easy to eat on the bike, easy to get down, stay down and hold up reasonably well in jersey pockets.

Ben

atwl77

I've not heard of this method before, but judging from the result it seems like a very simplistic way of estimating your Z3-Z4 HR range, and so aims to put you in those two HR zones. But like any other simplistic formula, it tends to be overly generic and cannot define everyone, so take with a grain of salt.

atwl77

Haha, this is a pretty amusing rule. But by "amusing", I don't mean it in a bad way because I know me and some people I know will also give out this kind of advice, and plan our ride strategy around it even. And then it always falls apart on the actual day itself. The reason? Local culture and/or peer pressure.


See, local culture here, it's almost always about the food. And even if it isn't, you can count on someone will make it about the food: "Hey, this ride goes through this town which is famous for that food, we must stop here and give it a try!" Know what I mean?


And then there's pressure, if you stop at a checkpoint to stamp your brevet card, and you want to leave but hey, everyone else is sitting around enjoying some famous local delicacy. Looks so delicious! Perhaps ice-cold even, perfect after hours riding under the hot sun! How could you not give in to temptation?


But I digress. I suppose different places will have different cultures and riding habits. But I guess what I'm saying is, even though the advice to minimize stops is very sound, but eh, stuff will happen (either because that's the way it is, or maybe something else happens -- you have a major mechanical issue, or whatever) so be prepared to have that plan torn to shreds.

Carbonfiberboy 

Likewise. I think I've come and gone by then, so missed it. Not putting it down, I enjoy the camaraderie. But if that's the culture, bonking isn't going to be an issue. Ice cream is also one of my faves, esp. a Dove bar or the like.

How to leave? The riders I came in with have their helmets on and are stowing their cards. OMG. Thankfully, I peed first thing.

Flounce

I can see how one ends up stopping more frequently, or longer, from peer pressure. I'm a little bit jealous of the camaraderie. On the other hand, I generally don't like to be tied to a group, I want to finish the brevet in as short time as possible, I'm not there to socialize.

If I catch up to someone I know, I don't slow down my pace to stay with them for long, I ask how they're doing, good seeing them, bye now.

This past Saturday on a 400km, two guys I rode with for a few minutes had been lost and when they saw I knew exactly where I was going because of my Garmin Etrex, they said, "Great! You can show us the way." Uhh, not so much. They weren't riding at my pace so I dropped them a minute later, sayonara.