smd4

I did read it. The point of you post was that 600 Ultegra (not "Tri-color." What a stupid nickname) performs the same as Dura Ace?

Having owned both, I can say with authority and emphatically--BS.

rccardr 

Yes, that was the point. For mere mortal types, assuming components are in excellent condition, properly maintained, tuned and fettled, installing a higher tier of Shimano components above Tricolor (love that term) will not substantively increase performance. Prettier? Sure. Last longer? Perhaps, but few owners actually use quality parts enough to truly wear them out. Personally, I prefer Dura Ace but would not remove everything from the BJ to replace it with DA and expect substantively improved performance.

Not the first time we disagree, surely it will not be the last.
With five bikes equipped with full Dura Ace and several others using DA bits here and there (hubs, shifters, etc.) in the current stable, would consider my post contextually accurate.

bamboobike4

The geometries are the same; the components make the difference, not necessarily 100% weight, but certain wheels, etc. The fork in the earlier models was not great. They changed to a threadless fork later, not on the PDG version, but the fork makes a big difference, too.

Sluggish: My first build was 600 Ultegra, model is 6400, a.k.a. "tricolor." The wheels were Araya CTL370's on the tricolor hubs. I think the sheer weight was a factor, and 1992 wheels, by 2010, are probably kind of dead. I was not into getting them trued and tensioned. Fork was a Kestrel EMS, steel steerer, quill stem, alloy bars, seat post, "normal saddle." It rode, well, not well compared to a couple nice steel bikes.

Not sluggish but horrible: Probably my 3rd or 4th 200-series was a later-model 200SCI, 1" threadless Kestrel EMS Pro fork. I was asked to build it as light as possible, and I did. I used 9-sp DA FD/RD/DT shifters, Modolo composite brake levers, a corncob cassette, full carbon stem/bar/saddle, very light Nimbus wheels, external cup FSA carbon cranks. It was around 16 lbs, very stiff, and rode like a piece of plywood on wheels. It was light but did not want to move out of a straight line. I rode it one test ride and promptly shipped it to the CA bike shop that wanted it.

Amazing, not sure why: A friend bought probably a pre-1990 frame with a 1" threaded Kestrel EMS fork. It was green and especially ugly, white lettering. He pulled the fork for a Ritchey Carbon 1" threadless, FSA headset, carbon stem/FSA alloy bars. He installed 2x10 5700 shifters, 6700 FD/RD, a Stronglight Pulzion crankset, and American Classic Victory 30 wheels, Origin8 TorqueLight calipers. He had it repainted all black, eschewed decals. We were on a ride, me on a 16.5lb Wraith and he on the Kestrel. His FD came loose, so I volunteered to ride it home on the small ring and figured he'd like the Wraith during the swap. It was fast, nimble, light. I had probably the fastest 6-7 miles I've ever done on it, carrying far more speed than normal. We finished up, and we swapped back. I couldn't get the Wraith to ride like that, even in the same gear. Instantly curious and jealous. I think it was the combination of the components and very lively alloy wheels.

A while ago, I got an excellent deal on a 2011 SuperSix, 2x10 Di2 Ultegra, SuperTeam wheels. I swapped in Zipp 404 tubulars. Well under 16 lbs and Di2-steady. He let me know it was time for him to get "a newer bike." I traded him the SuperSix for the Kestrel and a set of DA9000/Mavic Open Pro UST wheels. While it may have been a bit "light" on my side, I have what I thought was magic and he's on a modern bike he won't be replacing any time soon. I'm convinced it's the wheel/BB weight placement that made such a difference, but of course, it's everything. It rides great. It will never rival a precision petite Italian frame with the same components, but it's a ton better than any of the 200's I've had.

The reason I think wheels make a difference, is back when the Easton EA90 SLX's were the "standard," I built one with those, 9-sp Ultegra otherwise, and it rode pretty well. I tried a set of carbon wheels on one of the 200-series I built, and it seemed skittish. I know there were BB shell changes/issues during the production run, but not sure what they may have had to do with anything.

Writing this makes me want to take a crack at a Series 9, but it would only retain the frame, and Paramount fans, even PDG ones, would denigrate me more than they do now.

Were I to restore one, with the tricolor, I'd do the following, really just cleaning and tuning to a gnat's.....
1-re-pack that heavy BB.
2-get the OEM wheels trued and tensioned, try to bring some life back into them. O/H the hubs.
3-repack and adjust that headset.
4-get the Paramount stem. I believe it was a Tange Prestige and light enough. Swap the steel wedge for an alloy one.
4 twice-OEM bars.
5-use the smallest cassette I could for weight savings. The 8-sp were fairly heavy.
6-try 700x25 tires if they fit, stay away from ponderous tires and heavy tubes.
7-I guess the seat post is OEM, so that stays, same as the saddle.

Were I to keep the OEM appearance, but bring it up a notch or two:
1-sell the group and wheels, swap in 9-sp DA.
2-Maybe swap the crankset for an external-cup FSA carbon.
3-Find some wheels that look the part but are tons lighter. Plenty out there.
4-3TTT stem and Forma bars. Excellent for STI's and light.
5-get a better 1" threaded fork. They are out there.

The value likely would not change much. Certainly not against the current market.
The exception would be the OEM restoration and a PDG/Schwinn fan decides it's a collectable piece.
There are people out there with PDG Series 2,3,5,7 and 9. It happens.

bamboobike4

As someone who tri-PR'd on Sora 9-sp, I don't really remember much performance difference across the board on 8-sp.
When DA 7700 arrived, for me it simply went to 11 on a scale of 1-10.

Each level, 8-sp and below, had things I preferred over the others.
DA 7400 8-I preferred the RD and FD, and the hubs.
Ultegra 6400 8-I preferred the calipers and crankset.
The shifters made zero difference to me. I can't remember if they were cross-compatible.

I agree with rccardr that properly tuned and adjusted, (were I blind-folded), I very much doubt I could tell the difference.
On 8-speed.

Bring in 7700 shifters, RD, FD, and I could tell in the dark going uphill, half drunk on the way to full blown.

Then again, I still can't "outride" Sora. Never will get that good.
These days, my legs dictate, and my view runs to XT/XTR on the rear wheel...

plonz 

I rode carbon fiber from about 2010 to 2017 and upgraded frames 3 times in an effort to stay fast and relevant in the group I rode with. I used DA 7800 on all 3 and with each upgrade the advances in carbon fiber over that period were noticeable. Less flex, more power transfer yet more forgiving ride quality. As I grew older and became less concerned with being in the front of the pack, I said goodbye to carbon and made the wholesale change to vintage steel. Have loved the experience ever since.

So in my experience, the only need to get a newer carbon fiber bike is if you remain on a quest to beat the rest. In that case, I’d be springing for disc brakes and Di2 as well.

repechage

a Specialized aero road bike, the one that gnaws at the internal control routing...
"your steering tube is bleeding"

but they ARE faster for a bit.
zoom

t2p

true - unless you add the XTR 12-28 8-spd cassette to the mix

the XTR 12-28 with alloy carrier and titanium large cogs is lighter than a standard 12-23 8 spd cassette

rccardr 

Blind folded, half drunk, and riding uphill in the dark.
Sounds like a country & western song.

wrk101

Put me in the Dr's camp on this one. For personal builds, my two groups of choice tend to be either the 8 speed tricolor or the 8 speed DA 7400. I like both of them. I do have one DA 7700 bike, due to finding a deal on a donor.

bamboobike4

Thanks for the tip. Looks like the 8-speed cassettes are fairly reasonable.
I checked the 11-sp XTR. I think it's 11-$P XTR.

During today's climb of Juniper Pass (in the studio), I realized, when the grade hit 7%, that I am "out of gears."
At least, in the studio, I don't have to keep looking uphill and know it's going to hurt, and it's hard to fall off a CompuTrainer.

timsch

Sorry for the delayed response. I've had the worst food poisoning ever. Thanks for the detailed info. Regarding the upgrade:
1. I've repacked the bottom bracket. I thought about replacing it, but since it seemed to be in good shape, decided not to. I was heavy, but since the mass was pretty concentrated and rotational inertia should (??) be minimal.
2. With pretty good mechanical skills, should I be able to do the truing or should it be left to a shop?
5. What cassettes do you have in mind?

bamboobike4

Re:
2. Tensioning the spokes can breathe new life into those wheels. Unless you are good at it, let a pro do it. True wheels can still be “dead.”
5. For occasional use, there was an Ultegra 12-19 straight block. Light and tight. I rode a metric on one, sort of hilly, with norskagent . By the time I was at 60 miles, I couldn’t unclip. Legs were “alles kaput.”

sdn40

Unless I had money to burn - I would look at that frame and say, "damn, this thing has aged well" despite my not giving it the love it deserves. Cool, unique, and time has certainly not passed it by. Then I would renew my efforts to maintain it and look to upgrade what is attached to it. But that's me. I love that design. Tear it down. Give the frame and components a good cleaning. Touching up a black frame is easy. Then hit the frame with some polishing compound and fall in love all over again. And if you're into this sort of thing - that bike all cleaned up will get looks and conversation starters more than most new bikes.

I'd probably start with a wheelset that further accentuates the frame if the dropout spacing allows

The Golden Boy 

That's nice.

The world's just gone to hell with the kids and their hip-rap "music" and these multi-geared bi-cycles. Why, back in my day we rode logs sitting on rocks. And we liked it.

timsch

Sounds good. I'm definitely not getting rid of it. I'll give it some TLC and look into some other components. When were some of the bigger improvements in wheelsets introduced? I see sets going for pretty incredible amounts. I'd imagine I'll pick up another more modern bike when a good deal comes up, and if it's not all that, sell it for what I paid.