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Sturmey Archer Help - No Low gear?

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Sturmey Archer Help - No Low gear?

Old 03-08-08, 11:20 AM
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onetwentyeight 
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Sturmey Archer Help - No Low gear?

Hello!

Im working on my first SA 3 speed set up, and cant quite get it dialed in. I seem to be unable to get in to low gear! I have tried two different hubs, too, and am starting to wonder if perhaps it is my shifter. I have no problem going from high to medium. Any ideas? Suggestions?
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Old 03-08-08, 12:02 PM
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2 hubs?
First, google up Sheldon Brown Sturmey Archer or some such thing.
Second, if you spin the wheel backwards slightly while tugging on the indicator chain, you should be able to feel when it snicks into 2nd then first. I sometimes hole one side of the axle in each hand, then push the cog with my right thumb, while manipulating the indicator however I can. If I'm careful I can see the difference in rotation for each of first, second, and third gears.

Don't know if this helps you out or not.
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Old 03-08-08, 12:09 PM
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yea im pretty quick at building wheels so i swapped the hub out in about an hour or so yesterday. heh.

when the cable is loose, its deffinately in high gear. i can feel it then transition into a neutral, and then into second. after second i cant feel it changing anymore, even when the chain is totally taut.

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Old 03-08-08, 12:40 PM
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Just to refresh - On the set up the shifter needs to be in high 3rd) and the cable should not have any tension on it but should not be so loose as to be hanging.

Although a close up would help it looks like the cable stop is very close to the dropout and the adjustment screw is dialled in as tightly as it can get... by moving the cable stop forward on the stay you will have more room to adjust the cable and you may only be a tiny bit off in having enough pull to get the bike to drop into first.

The cable stop is usually in this area (highlighted):



Also...if the hub is older and has not seen much use it could probably use a good flushing and / or filling with oil and a ride around the block to free things up.
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Old 03-08-08, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver
Just to refresh - On the set up the shifter needs to be in high 3rd) and the cable should not have any tension on it but should not be so loose as to be hanging.

Although a close up would help it looks like the cable stop is very close to the dropout and the adjustment screw is dialled in as tightly as it can get... by moving the cable stop forward on the stay you will have more room to adjust the cable and you may only be a tiny bit off in having enough pull to get the bike to drop into first.

The cable stop is usually in this area (highlighted):



Also...if the hub is older and has not seen much use it could probably use a good flushing and / or filling with oil and a ride around the block to free things up.
+1 right on!
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Old 03-08-08, 01:01 PM
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can you explain to me how the fulcrum clip/cable stop impacts hub performance? Im not quite understanding its relevance.
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Old 03-08-08, 01:13 PM
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Moving the cable stop back will allow to you to tighten the cable a little more as the difference betwwen shifting and not shifting into low gear can be very very small.

Note the position of the cable stop on my Superbe... you can see that the adustment barrel still has a good deal of room to be moved in either direction.

This is how a 3 speed set up should look when the cable runs along the chain stay...basically, if you cannot tighten the cable any more than you already have with the barrel adjuster, the stop has to be moved back as it changes the effective cable length.

You also want to have the bike set up so that the cable tension can be increased or decreased as needed.

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Old 03-08-08, 01:35 PM
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Okay, ive repositioned the cable stop. about 2/3rds of the way down the stay towards the seat tube (its about 2 inches behind the chainring. 1st gear definitely works. Second gear works too, pulling the trigger causes the indicator rod to be about 1mm past the axle. shifting in to low seems still not to do anything. even pulling the little chain on the indicator rod, i can feel no dead spot between 2nd and 3rd. is this normal? Perhaps the reduction is not as noticable as I expected and Im just not feeling it??
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Old 03-08-08, 02:10 PM
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Hey onetwentyeight...next time instead of rebuilding the wheel, just swap the guts out of the hub, usually a lot easier and quicker IMHO.

Aaron
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Old 03-08-08, 02:41 PM
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I'm not totally certain I understand...
1st gear is with the cable pulled tight. Most people will call this "Low gear"
2nd gear is the 1:1, and is with the cable somewhere in the middle.
3rd gear is with the cable slack. Most of us call this "High gear." It's what you'd get if you removed the indicator from the hub.

There isn't a dead spot between 1st (tight cable) and 2nd (not quite as tight as first). There is the Neutral setting on the older hubs between 2nd and third. It may take a couple degrees of sprocket rotation to engage 1st from 2nd or vice versa.

Modern Sturmey hubs (the only modern one I've ridden is a 5 speed) have no dead spot between any gears.

That bike is going to be stunning, by the way. Very nice! What size tires/wheels are you using?
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Old 03-08-08, 03:29 PM
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ah i have my 1st and 3rd swapped around. The tires are 700x32, challenge grifo dry condition cross tires.
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Old 04-12-10, 04:43 AM
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Hi, I know this is bringing back an old thread but did you ever get a resolution to this? I'm having what sounds like a similar problem with the AW hub on an early 80s Triumph 3 speed I recently got for my wife. 2nd and 3rd gears (mid and high) work perfectly but it doesn't want to shift into 1st (low) gear. I've stripped the hub and everything looks perfect inside as far as I can tell - virtually no wear. Cleaned and oiled everything but it's still doing it.

Don't think it's related to cable adjustment or stop position as it still seems a problem just pulling out the indicator chain by hand (when not connected to the cable) and spinning the wheel.

Could this be something to do with adjustment of the drive-side cone?

Getting close to buying another old hub off ebay and swapping the internals to see if that solves it - thinking of going for a 3 speed for a winter bike for myself some time so spares would always be handy!

Pete.
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Old 04-13-10, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Teuchter
Hi, I know this is bringing back an old thread but did you ever get a resolution to this? I'm having what sounds like a similar problem with the AW hub on an early 80s Triumph 3 speed I recently got for my wife. 2nd and 3rd gears (mid and high) work perfectly but it doesn't want to shift into 1st (low) gear. I've stripped the hub and everything looks perfect inside as far as I can tell - virtually no wear. Cleaned and oiled everything but it's still doing it.

Don't think it's related to cable adjustment or stop position as it still seems a problem just pulling out the indicator chain by hand (when not connected to the cable) and spinning the wheel.

Could this be something to do with adjustment of the drive-side cone?

Getting close to buying another old hub off ebay and swapping the internals to see if that solves it - thinking of going for a 3 speed for a winter bike for myself some time so spares would always be handy!

Pete.
Are you sure your shifter is ok?
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Old 04-13-10, 04:07 AM
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I've seen this problem before when the cable isn't properly seated in the shifter. Worth a shot...
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Old 04-13-10, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by badmother
Are you sure your shifter is ok?
Unfortunately I can't be sure of the shifter but the hub seemed to not be shifting to 1st even with the cable (and shifter) disconnected from it and me pulling the indicator chain by hand at the hub (with the bike upside down and the wheel and pedals free to turn). As I understand it, in 2nd the cog should rotate at the same rate as the wheel while in 1st it should rotate faster than t he wheel. With the chain pulled out as far as it would go at the hub, the cog and wheel still appeared to be turning at the same rate suggesting it was still in 2nd.

Pete.
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Old 04-13-10, 08:01 AM
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Wondering if anyone knows a good mechanic in Toronto who knows how to work on Sturmey Archer gears. I have 2 Raleigh Choppers and 2 John Deeres, that could use some work.
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Old 04-13-10, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Teuchter
Unfortunately I can't be sure of the shifter but the hub seemed to not be shifting to 1st even with the cable (and shifter) disconnected from it and me pulling the indicator chain by hand at the hub (with the bike upside down and the wheel and pedals free to turn). As I understand it, in 2nd the cog should rotate at the same rate as the wheel while in 1st it should rotate faster than t he wheel. With the chain pulled out as far as it would go at the hub, the cog and wheel still appeared to be turning at the same rate suggesting it was still in 2nd.

Pete.
If the indicator is the wrong size, it can lead to problems shifting into low gear. If you removed the low gear pawls and put them in backwards, that too can cause first to miss. That said, have you ridden the bike, or just tried it in the stand? I can never tell what gear it's in without any drag on the wheel. I usually just oil the hub, put a drop of oil on the shifter, and ride them for a while.

Last edited by gna; 04-13-10 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 04-13-10, 08:27 AM
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cyclenut, we can talk you through the repairs. They're not terribly hard.
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Old 04-13-10, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by gna
If the indicator is the wrong size, it can lead to problems shifting into low gear. If you removed the low gear pawls and put them in backwards, that too can cause first to miss. That said, have you ridden the bike, or just tried it in the stand? I can never tell what gear it's in without any drag on the wheel. I usually just oil the hub, put a drop of oil on the shifter, and ride them for a while.
Thanks for the suggestions so far, everyone!

I may get hold of a new indicator chain as they're cheap enough and look around at replacement shifters. Parts are relatively cheap so I guess ultimately I can just replace everything bit by bit until I find the culprit! First thing is I'll have another look at it tonight to be doubly sure it definitely isn't going into first with the shifter and cable disconnected. I did do a mile or so on it at the weekend - not nice as it's quite a bit too small for me but that aside, if I could get the gears working it would be a nice bike for my wife who is at best a reluctant cyclist!

The orientation of the pawls was a bit of a concern. I've never worked on internal geared hubs before and stupidly it didn't dawn on me that they weren't symmetrical until I came to reassemble everything! I've referred to what images I can find online and *think* I've put them back in correctly... I know the direction they're in is correct and I put the low gear pawls in with the shallower angled faces outwards, if that makes sense.

I'm enjoying the learning curve of this. If I eventually follow my plan of getting an SA geared bike for my own use to replace one of my other commuting bikes for bad weather duties I'll need to get to know these things more!

Pete.
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Old 04-13-10, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Teuchter
The orientation of the pawls was a bit of a concern. I've never worked on internal geared hubs before and stupidly it didn't dawn on me that they weren't symmetrical until I came to reassemble everything! I've referred to what images I can find online and *think* I've put them back in correctly... I know the direction they're in is correct and I put the low gear pawls in with the shallower angled faces outwards, if that makes sense.
Having just last night gone back into my hub to re-install low gear pawls that I had installed backwards the first time, I know how you feel. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why 2nd and 3rd gears worked fine, but where 1st gear was supposed to be there was an unfortunate "neutral" instead. Boy, did I feel silly!

And yes, "shallower angled face outwards" makes sense, and is (I believe) correct. Then again, I'm not sure you want to trust my judgment on this, considering my recent track record!
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Old 04-13-10, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Teuchter
Thanks for the suggestions so far, everyone!

I may get hold of a new indicator chain as they're cheap enough and look around at replacement shifters. Parts are relatively cheap so I guess ultimately I can just replace everything bit by bit until I find the culprit! First thing is I'll have another look at it tonight to be doubly sure it definitely isn't going into first with the shifter and cable disconnected. I did do a mile or so on it at the weekend - not nice as it's quite a bit too small for me but that aside, if I could get the gears working it would be a nice bike for my wife who is at best a reluctant cyclist!

The orientation of the pawls was a bit of a concern. I've never worked on internal geared hubs before and stupidly it didn't dawn on me that they weren't symmetrical until I came to reassemble everything! I've referred to what images I can find online and *think* I've put them back in correctly... I know the direction they're in is correct and I put the low gear pawls in with the shallower angled faces outwards, if that makes sense.

I'm enjoying the learning curve of this. If I eventually follow my plan of getting an SA geared bike for my own use to replace one of my other commuting bikes for bad weather duties I'll need to get to know these things more!

Pete.
I have put the hub back together incorrectly and nearly lost my mind trying to figure it out. Or maybe I did lose it.
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Old 04-13-10, 01:11 PM
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I had a similar problem with the gearing on my 1972 LTD-3, and it came down to cable adjustments.

This article is extremely helpful. The adjustments take a few minutes, and some trial and error. Give it some time and effort, and you should be able to get it in a place where it's able to cycle through all 3 gears.
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Old 04-13-10, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Teuchter
Thanks for the suggestions so far, everyone!

I may get hold of a new indicator chain as they're cheap enough

fyi, the wrong length indicator spindle could cause shifting problems for sure, but these problems would probably not be evident when you are bypassing the cable and pulling the indicator chain straight out from the hub by hand
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Old 05-03-10, 09:49 AM
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Well made some progress at last, after a fashion...

I've been looking around for an old 3 speed for myself to ride as a winter hack and came across an old gentleman selling his old Raleigh 3 speed, along with a (non folding) Raleigh twenty on Gumtree (probably the nearest equivalent to Craigslist over here in the UK). I bought them both, thinking that selling the twenty myself could come close to covering the price I paid for the pair. As the twenty's SA hub was working correctly, I swapped its hub internals into my wife's Triumph and hey presto - it now worked perfectly. That at least isolated the problem as being with the internals and gave her a working bike.

All was well and I was looking around for a replacement old hub to slot into the twenty when my wife saw it and fell in love with it... so now I've got to swap the working hub internals back into that bike for her! Women!
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Old 05-03-10, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by buck mulligan
And yes, "shallower angled face outwards" makes sense, and is (I believe) correct. Then again, I'm not sure you want to trust my judgment on this, considering my recent track record!
For the record, I was wrong about this. After posting this response I still had the same problem, so I did a bit more research and it turns out that the shallower angled face is oriented inward, and the sharper angled face outward.
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