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Another "What Is It" Help Identify Mystery Frame Thread.

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Another "What Is It" Help Identify Mystery Frame Thread.

Old 07-25-22, 02:00 PM
  #1  
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Another "What Is It" Help Identify Mystery Frame Thread.

Gem, or junk? I really don't know.
I am thrown off by the somewhat fancy seat lug, and the unusual (to me, anyway), unmarked rear dropouts. Shimano SF front dropouts, Shimano cable guides on bottom bracket. Steerer tube has no tubing manufacturer stamp, 22.2 stem insertion. Perhaps this fork was a later installation? No holes for a headbadge. The lugs are rather plain, no fancy cutouts. No standout detailing around the chainstay bridge or brake bridge. Seatstay caps are nothing spectacular. Threaded fittings on seatstays and brake bridge. Small braze-on under the downtube for a shifter/cable stop. Would use nutted brake calipers, not recessed. I think the rear was originally spaced at 120, but has been opened up to about 127 right now. The seatstays have visible "flaring out" below the brake bridge. The serial number is crudely stamped in the bottom bracket. There were styrofoam plugs in all the (nicely mitered) tubes where they enter the bottom bracket. 27.2 seatpost. No "rifling" in the steerer tube or seat tube. Chainstays are not dimpled. Size is 58 c-t seat tube, ~56.5 c-c top tube. The frame and fork together weigh right at 2735g or 6 pounds, maybe a hair less considering the headset cups weigh a little. English threaded bottom bracket and headset. Water bottle bosses look like an afterthought, and the ones on the seat tube are offline from each other.
No builder / manufacturer sticker or decal remnants that I can see. There seems to be a white primer or under layer, underneath a very thick yellow/green/blue with stars paint job. I scraped off some of the thick paint in the typical decal areas, nothing there. There are Freudenburg Frames and Bandeira stickers on the chainstays, neither of which I can find any reference to onlineas far as being bike related.

I'm not going to post a lot of pics here at this point, but I have a lot of labeled detail pics here: https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjzY81A

To *me*, it looks like a 70's frame with some braze-on added later. If any of the above details, or any specifics in the pics ring a bell for anyone as to who might have made this, I'd love to hear it. I am not expecting a custom builder holy grail, but I'm also thinking this could be something other than a bike boom department store bike. The few components that were on it when I bought it are worth more than I paid (and ones I can use), so it's not like I have a lot of $$ tied up in it if it's something not all that exciting. Any insights as to who might have made this, or a direction to start looking woud be appreciated (I've spent too many hours searching forums and threads already).

As purchased:


After components removed:


Seat lug:


Serial number:


Tubes in bottom bracket:


Fork crown:




Rear dropouts:
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Last edited by hazetguy; 07-25-22 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 07-25-22, 02:20 PM
  #2  
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Other than the serial number, I'd almost say one-off or someone building for themself?
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Old 07-25-22, 09:39 PM
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the dropouts are Milremo, FR made but marketed by Ron Kitching in the UK.
So, it could be one of the Ron Kit frames, so maybe MKM but if there's anything FR in the tubing (metric) or threading it might be something from Andre Bertin, who partnered with Ron Kit (but I think that's unlikely).
Here's the page from CR:
Milremo range of products

EDIT: the serial number has NO correlation to any MKM frames system, so I think that"s a red herring
. The DOs were sold as frame bits to anybody who wanted 'em, but my guess is they were not used much by builders outside the UK, I'd guess your mystery frame was built here.

Last edited by unworthy1; 07-25-22 at 09:50 PM.
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Old 07-25-22, 10:47 PM
  #4  
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-----

"serial" could be an Oregon driver's license number...or something else...doubt it to be a "serial" as we usually think of it...most likely a personal ID number belonging to an earlier owner

lugs and crown appear they may be BOCAMA
possible that small notches in head lugs were put in by maker

downtube w/b mounted too high to be OEM, likely one of the reworked features

unclear from text and photos if chainstays are rapier pattern (conical) or if they are round-oval-round

rapier pattern chainstays tend to scream anglophone origin while round-oval-round open a wide range of possibilities

in considering possible national origins do not forget the low countries
would be interested to read the observations of our members there...

wonder if Koga-Miyata could be a candidate (wild speculation)

the mixed origin frame ends could be OEM on a machine coming from BE/NL

braze-on seat binder ears of this type offered by several manufacturers, one french producer is Dardenne

dropout pattern also sold as MAVIC; 1976 catalogue page -




MILREMO -




-----
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Old 07-26-22, 01:05 PM
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So now we know what FR maker may have produced the DOs for Ron Kit, BITD , thanks Juvela
I did not view all the detail pix until now, but I agree this does appear an earlier frame (but not earlier than some Shimano bits were available) which may have had braze-ons added afterward, but could be a home-build or student frame-builder project as well.
Is that a University of South Carolina license decal on the back of seat tube that was masked off before the current paint job?
If so, odd to think the owner thought it important to preserve this decal.
Paint is odd too: lug-lining pretty shaky but someone with an airbrush sure liked making stars!
Any of our Oregon members reco the BB stamp as typical for a Driver's License? I think that's a good theory!
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Old 07-26-22, 01:26 PM
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I don't know what I'm talking about here, but did own a Bertin before, for a short while. That seat lug said Bertin to me, somehow. 🤔

Love the stars. 😍

Hey, are you gonna keep that Ultegra triple? 😁😉
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Old 07-26-22, 06:25 PM
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-----

the frame's bottom bracket shell appears to be the BOCAMA Professional





(1979 Gazelle Champion Mondial)

---

fishmouth mitreing of the four tubes entering the shell, as mentioned above, is a sign of quality

many production frames constructed of first quality tubing simply chop off the tubes square so there is not full engagement between the tubes and their respective shell sockets

also we can see from the images provided that all tubes are seamless

---

evidence of which braze-ons may be original might reside yet beneath the verdure since the original white is present

removal of green around braze-ons will permit a view as to whether they are original or add-ons

---

Bandeira name looks/sounds like it may originate with Portugal...or at least the tongue

if transfer refers to a genuine connection to the cycle it is possible it may originate in Portugal or Brasil

or it may just be a reference to the painter or retailer...

although we seldom see them on the forum the list of Portuguese marques is an extensive one

a partial alphabetical enumeration

https://www.bikeforums.net/21735457-post6.html


---


crown

several makers feature the raised round seating pad for caliper brake mounting seen here

have not as yet found an exact match

one maker who features the pad on some models is Everest



---

perhaps DCI MauriceMoss shall be able to enlighten us upon his next forum visit


-----
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Old 07-26-22, 07:03 PM
  #8  
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Who needs Agatha Christie when we've got this going on?
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Old 07-26-22, 07:11 PM
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From the color scheme, it's clearly a South African build. Evidently built by the Mandela Corp factory in early 1983.

Actually, no clue. Will follow to see what is eventually learned.
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Old 07-26-22, 07:17 PM
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Having no expertise in this type of frame identification, some things did come to mind, though. The fork looks like it is of later manufacture than the frame. The head tube cable stops also look to have been added later. One didn’t usually see such cable stops in the same era as cable tunnels that were on the top of the Bottom bracket. The Milremo drop outs also seem to be from an even older period. I am awaiting, however, the judgement of the exceptionally knowledgeable “frame ID gurus” to weigh in……
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Old 07-26-22, 07:32 PM
  #11  
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Mystery Frame Is Maybe A Btard ???

Everybody's guessin'


BERTIN? There's NOTHING about that frame that says Bertin!

The "Milremo" dropouts were supposedly made by Mavic but they were more likely made by one of Italian companies like Technociclo that made most of the forged steel dropouts back then. Andre Bertin as well as Ron Kitching sold those Milremo/Mavic dropouts. I bought a couple of sets back ~1977 but never used them because of 3mm or 4mm threads for fender/rack mounts. It looks like the holes were drilled out to 5mm in this frame.

The BB shows silver brazing. My guess is that it was a small builder or amateur in the US. The Brits were too cheap to use silver and not many builders used those dropouts on either side of the pond.

Ron Kitching sold some Andre Bertin frames from the late 50's into the 70's. One problem, Bertin frames had French metric threads. Supposedly a few were made for the UK market with British threads but I've never seen any evidence confirming that.

1957 Kitching Bertin ad:



1960 Kitching catalog:



So to guess what the frame is??? Based on those dropouts and the silver brazing I suspect that it's a US built frame from the late 70's. Some braze-ons could have been added before a respray???

Good luck in your search but lack of pedigree shouldn't affect your appreciation of the frame.


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Old 07-27-22, 12:11 AM
  #12  
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I agree with verktyg that the dropouts were probably not made by Mavic or Milremo but by some namless* (to us) company with a big forge, who sold them through several distributors.
*unless it's Tecnociclo, they're not quite nameless.

The paint is a conundrum. One the one hand it's ugly, badly applied, too thick etc, but on the other hand it's unique and part of the frame's history. And if you took the paint off, you might find that the lack of definition at the lug edges is not due (only) to over-thick paint, but it could also be that the lug edges are just way over-filled and rounded off. So even a good paint job might end up looking bad. And good paint jobs aren't cheap.

So as a commercial endeavor ("flipping" for profit), a repaint isn't worth it. If you're keeping the bike to ride, then your oprinion is the only one that matters do you like it?

As to origin and era, I vote USA, 1980s. Subject to changing my mind if we figure out the BB threading and the tube diameters are metric.

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Old 07-27-22, 12:34 AM
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Outlying Band

I suggest this frame and fork is old, likely from before the mid-70s. and a repaint.

There's a brazed on band stop on the underside of the downtube. Cable stops on the headtube are later additions, and I suspect all the other brazed on fittings are as well.

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Old 07-27-22, 01:16 AM
  #14  
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US Builder

Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
The paint is a conundrum. One the one hand it's ugly, badly applied, too thick etc, but on the other hand it's unique and part of the frame's history.
I tend to keep my opinions to myself about subjective matters like paint and so on.... Falls into "Gee, your dog sure is ugly!" category.... The lug lining however is.... Je ne sais quoi

Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
As to origin and era, I vote USA, 1980s. Subject to changing my mind if we figure out the BB threading and the tube diameters are metric. Mark B
I started to write the same thing about tubing size and BB/headset threads then reread the original post: "27.2 seatpost", "English threaded bottom bracket and headset"...

The fork crown looks like a Bocama from the late 70's




Or perhaps a Prugnat... but there were so many crowns that had that look?



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Old 07-27-22, 07:58 AM
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What year is the USofC registration sticker?

One idea to kick in there - when I see 1970s (and I think this bike is from that time frame), hand-built bike frames and the University of South Carolina, I associate those things with Joe Azar's bike shop that was on the edge of the main campus in downtown Columbia, SC. And when I think of Joe Azar's shop, I think of Mike Melton. I will note that Melton did at least one interesting rebuild that my son is riding - a 1971 Mercian KOM that was crashed. Helping a poor dude out, Melton removed the damaged 531 top and down tubes and replaced them with what are allegedly Vitus 971 tubes, which also involved replacing the (apparently ruined) Nervex Professional lower head lug with a Bocama no. 18. The bike's owner did some filing and did the cleanup afterwards. It is NOT an exquisite piece of work, but a functional and serviceable repair. Interestingly enough, it was also green, and had yellow decals or stencils marked "Boettcher," the name of the bike's owner.

Really reaching here, and the top eyes of the seat stays don't like look the pix I see of Melton's work - but could he have been involved assisting someone in building it?
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Old 07-27-22, 08:40 AM
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Whether by accident or design, the colors on this frame represent Australia. The blue in front with the stars of different sizes is representative of their flag. The green and yellow/gold are the national colors sport teams wear. The yellow/gold represents some Australian flower. I think those colors with stars in the blue are more than just a coincidence they are Australian colors.

The serial # looks liike some personal identification #. An Oregon drivers license is a good guess. Especially because the ending letters have a DL in them.

Back in the 70's and 80's it was very common for us that were also painters to add or subtract braze-ons when doing a repaint. I did this constantly. That is why braze-ons can be a poor indicator of the frame's original age. Australians were kind of similar to Americans I think in regards to custom builders in that era. The pip to stop banded shift levers makes this a 60's or very early 70's frame. Non-recessed brakes too.

I also agree that the mitering inside the BB and silver brazing makes this a US or Australian custom. I lean towards this being a student frame. The less-than-beautiful seat stay treatment looks like student work before they have gotten their aesthetics worked out yet. The nicely sculpted and shaped seat lug with braze-on binder bolt says custom too. The threads on the binder should be checked (if indeed there are threads).
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