11-spd Modernization of OEM 1996 Cannondale Los Dos
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
11-spd Modernization of OEM 1996 Cannondale Los Dos
Hi. Am in the initial stages of my planning effort to modernize the drivetrain of my 1996 Cannondale Los Dos Tandem. I'd appreciate input from similar experiences modernizing to a 11-speed mechanical for a C'dale.
Current spec:
My main concerns are:
Current spec:
- OEM stock frame and drivetrain (triple chain rings)
- 140mm distance between rear drop outs
- 10 mm rear dropouts slot width
- 26" rims
- 32 mm tires (will carry over)
- External cables
- 295# team weight
- No electronic shifting (e.g. Di2, eTap, etc.)
- 11-speed mechanical rear & shifters (Prefer Shimano Ultegra b/c of familiarity from single bikes, but not committed to it)
- Double front chainrings (brand & model TBD)
- New 26" rims (exact model TBD)
- 140mm hub (Most likely a 40-hole White Ind hub from Tandems East but not committed to it)
My main concerns are:
- Although I've rebuilt cars, and replaced like parts for like parts on bikes, this tandem project puts me in uncharted waters. To wit, I don't know what the foundational parameters are that should be dealt with first.
- For example:
- Will a 140mm hub and 40-spokes (20/20) properly support use of 11-speed with a 295# husband/wife team?
- If I go with Da Vinci cranks, then what do I need to measure on my existing frame so as to spec the front and rear Da Vinci cranksets and bottom bracket?
- Will the new Ultegra R8000 mechanical group still shift well when used with the extra long derailleur cable needed for a tandem frame?
- What concerns are there for chainline dimensions during this build?
- From a standpoint of future-proofing one's investment - What is the potential for the manufacturers to release a roadie 12-speed, for double chainrings, in the next 6-months?
Last edited by Eulers; 12-31-17 at 05:29 AM.
#2
Banned
I think Shimano freehubs for tandems are 145, so it may fit, or thin the left spacer stack 5mm..
I don't own the tandem you have or a Shimano freehub, like that, but you can search the PDF online of them.
how about a Rohloff? 14 speed 36 hole (no dish), 135mm, * can be used with 2 regular cranks, same side drive, rather than the crossover type.
* maybe bond 2 2.5mm stainless steel washers inside the frame dropouts, notched like the dropouts ..
retrofit kit includes chain tensioner and torque reaction strut..
now several 3rd party offerings to shift it with out the grip shifter. on the bars..
...
I don't own the tandem you have or a Shimano freehub, like that, but you can search the PDF online of them.
how about a Rohloff? 14 speed 36 hole (no dish), 135mm, * can be used with 2 regular cranks, same side drive, rather than the crossover type.
* maybe bond 2 2.5mm stainless steel washers inside the frame dropouts, notched like the dropouts ..
retrofit kit includes chain tensioner and torque reaction strut..
now several 3rd party offerings to shift it with out the grip shifter. on the bars..
...
Last edited by fietsbob; 12-29-17 at 12:36 PM.
#3
Full Member
I'm just about to go through the process of measuring our tandem for double chainrings too. I presume you're keeping thlhs for the timing chain. Don't be tempted to use the Davinci titanium BB with the Davinci cranks as they use a non-standard bearing which isn't easy to source.
Unless you live somewhere very flat I would be looking at a larger cassette. We're going to use an 11- 42 with a Wolftooth roadlink on a eTap WiFli rear derailleur. I'd look at using Velocity Cliffhanger or Blunt 35 if you have enough room. We run Schwalbe Supreme 2.0" tyres for touring on Blunt 35's 26" and they roll really well.
Unless you live somewhere very flat I would be looking at a larger cassette. We're going to use an 11- 42 with a Wolftooth roadlink on a eTap WiFli rear derailleur. I'd look at using Velocity Cliffhanger or Blunt 35 if you have enough room. We run Schwalbe Supreme 2.0" tyres for touring on Blunt 35's 26" and they roll really well.
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,672
Bikes: '06 Bianchi Pista; '57 Maclean; '10 Scott CR1 Pro; 2005 Trek 2000 Tandem; '09 Comotion Macchiato Tandem; 199? Novara Road; '17 Circe Helios e-tandem:1994 Trek 2300
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
60 Posts
Hi. Am in the initial stages of my planning effort to modernize the drivetrain of my 1996 Cannondale Los Dos Tandem. I'd appreciate input from similar experiences modernizing to a 11-speed mechanical for a C'dale.
Current spec:
My main concerns are:
Current spec:
- OEM stock frame and drivetrain (triple chain rings)
- 140mm distance between rear drop outs
- 26" rims
- External cables
- 295# team weight
- No electronic shifting (e.g. Di2, eTap, etc.)
- 11-speed mechanical rear & shifters (Prefer Shimano Ultegra b/c of familiarity from single bikes, but not committed to it)
- Double front chainrings (brand & model TBD)
- New 26" rims (exact model TBD)
- 140mm hub (Most likely a 40-hole White Ind hub from Tandems East but not committed to it)
My main concerns are:
- Although I've rebuilt cars, and replaced like parts for like parts on bikes, this tandem project puts me in uncharted waters. To wit, I don't know what the foundational parameters are that should be dealt with first.
- For example:
- Will a 140mm hub and 40-spokes (20/20) properly support use of 11-speed with a 295# husband/wife team?
- If I go with Da Vinci cranks, then what do I need to measure on my existing frame so as to spec the front and rear Da Vinci cranksets and bottom bracket?
- Will the new Ultegra R8000 mechanical group still shift well when used with the extra long derailleur cable needed for a tandem frame?
- What concerns are there for chainline dimensions during this build?
- From a standpoint of future-proofing one's investment - What is the potential for the manufacturers to release a roadie 12-speed, for double chainrings, in the next 6-months?
#5
afraid of whales
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
Do you have a rear drum brake? If not there are some low cost rear hub options for 32H/36H.
Last edited by Mr IGH; 12-30-17 at 12:14 PM.
#6
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 420
Bikes: 2022 Calfee Tetra, 2023 Giant TCR
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
*Will a 140mm hub and 40-spokes (20/20) properly support use of 11-speed with a 295# husband/wife team?
*If I go with Da Vinci cranks, then what do I need to measure on my existing frame so as to spec the front and rear Da Vinci cranksets and bottom bracket?[*]
*Will the new Ultegra R8000 mechanical group still shift well when used with the extra long derailleur cable needed for a tandem frame?
*What concerns are there for chainline dimensions during this build?[*]
*From a standpoint of future-proofing one's investment - What is the potential for the manufacturers to release a roadie 12-speed, for double chainrings, in the next 6-months?
[/LIST]
*If I go with Da Vinci cranks, then what do I need to measure on my existing frame so as to spec the front and rear Da Vinci cranksets and bottom bracket?[*]
*Will the new Ultegra R8000 mechanical group still shift well when used with the extra long derailleur cable needed for a tandem frame?
*What concerns are there for chainline dimensions during this build?[*]
*From a standpoint of future-proofing one's investment - What is the potential for the manufacturers to release a roadie 12-speed, for double chainrings, in the next 6-months?
[/LIST]
The DaVinci cranks use square taper BB to fit 68mm shells, and the arms come in a wide range of lengths. Retail is around $600.
The Ultegra R8000 11sp mechanical will be fine with the long cable run. The front shifting will be better than a triple, esp if you use high quality rings with ramps and pins. However, Di2 or eTap will be substantially better than any mechanical drivetrain. Chainline should not be an issue. The cost for R8000 shifters, derailleurs chain, and 11sp cassette is around $500.
Shimano is much more likely to introduce a 12sp group for mtn bikes rather than for road bikes. This would be to match the SRAM Eagle 1x12 drivetrain. Some gravel bikes use 1x12 but it's a niche market. Regardless, 11 and 10sp road groups will be around for a long time.
It will be hard to find a 11sp rear hub with the old 140mm spacing. Even if you find one, the rear hub (without rim or spokes) will probably cost $300+.
#8
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thanks, mtseymour, for the info on Da Vinci as I've not been able to raise a response from them. It could be that they're shutdown for the holiday. The 68mm shell info is good to know.
#9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#11
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thlhs?
I'm just about to go through the process of measuring our tandem for double chainrings too. I presume you're keeping thlhs for the timing chain.
Don't be tempted to use the Davinci titanium BB with the Davinci cranks as they use a non-standard bearing which isn't easy to source.
Unless you live somewhere very flat I would be looking at a larger cassette.
We're going to use an 11- 42 with a Wolftooth roadlink on a eTap WiFli rear derailleur. I'd look at using Velocity Cliffhanger or Blunt 35 if you have enough room. We run Schwalbe Supreme 2.0" tyres for touring on Blunt 35's 26" and they roll really well.
Don't be tempted to use the Davinci titanium BB with the Davinci cranks as they use a non-standard bearing which isn't easy to source.
Unless you live somewhere very flat I would be looking at a larger cassette.
We're going to use an 11- 42 with a Wolftooth roadlink on a eTap WiFli rear derailleur. I'd look at using Velocity Cliffhanger or Blunt 35 if you have enough room. We run Schwalbe Supreme 2.0" tyres for touring on Blunt 35's 26" and they roll really well.
** Good tip about Da Vinci! Thanks!
** Locally it is a lot of rolling hills. Vacations are rail trails. Am not averse to switching cassettes for vacation. We always appreciate more range! Mo' is betta!
Last edited by Eulers; 12-31-17 at 05:33 AM.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,853
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1067 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 259 Times
in
153 Posts
Personally if in the end you want a road tandem I would not start with what you have.
I would sell it and get a newer road tandem that already has what you want.
I would sell it and get a newer road tandem that already has what you want.
#13
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Seems like the foundational items are (1) the rear hub and (2) the compatibility to the crankset (chainline, etc.) and (3) new Bottom Bracket compatibility with existing frame's shell.
So far I'm trying to get these questions answered but there has been no response the past week or so from DaVinci. It's likely b/c of the holiday for sure with the hub supplier as they told me so. I'll retry mid-Jan when they return.
HUB:
I have these Questions:
MATERIALS:
So far I'm trying to get these questions answered but there has been no response the past week or so from DaVinci. It's likely b/c of the holiday for sure with the hub supplier as they told me so. I'll retry mid-Jan when they return.
HUB:
I have these Questions:
MATERIALS:
- What material is the axle (aluminum, stainless, or steel)?
- Does the freehub have steel splines, or does it have any type of "anti-bite" freehub?
- I'm concerned that the 15mm axle you spec'd won't fit in my dropouts (which are made for 10mm). Any suggestions?
- I saw you replied 40-hole. Is there a 36-hole or 32-hole option?
- Is the hub flange made for standard J-bend spokes?
- Any idea what the hub's Right Flange Offset is in millimeters (drive side)?
- (I'm hoping this will help me verify chainline dimensions).
- On which White Ind model is this hub based (e.g. Racer X, etc.)?
Last edited by Eulers; 01-01-18 at 09:55 AM.
#14
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
In the meantime, until I hear back from Da Vinci and TandemsEast, I'll double check the benefit vs cost story using the suggestions from MrIGH (Tiagra 10v) and DeanV (newer tandem).
#16
Nigel
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 2,991
Bikes: 1980s and 1990s steel: CyclePro, Nishiki, Schwinn, SR, Trek........
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 384 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
6 Posts
On our T50, we went from the original 3 x 7 to a 3 x 9 because:
* the rims split along the brake track.
* neither I nor the LBS could get the Sun Tour cassette of the Sansin hub. The LBS broke two chain whips trying. I don't think that the original owner ever took it apart and that it was not adequately greased originally.
Benefits: wider range across each chain ring; and slight closer ratio spacing.
I used a Wheelmaster 135mm tandem hub with a 2mm precision shim (washer style) on each side. The Wheelmaste hub has a 15mm axle, with 10mm nubs on each side that slide into standard drop outs. It's construction is very similar to Phil Wood's. It is available in 36H, 40H and 48H. Might be in 32H too - I have looked. It has an 8/9/10 speed steel freehub - which I believe works with 11 speed road cassettes - but not positive.
We did not change the 28-44-54 chain rings. The rear went from 12-28 to 11-34. 12-36 might have been a better choice. Since then I got a 26T granny.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Mountain Brook. AL
Posts: 4,002
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 303 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 136 Times
in
104 Posts
On a recent thread ( https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...ad-triple.html )
under reply #8 there was mention that Shimano's latest 11 spd cassette, the 8000 series Ultegra 11-34 is back compatible with 10 spd hubs
sort of like the 11 spd MTB cassettes being compatible with 10 spd hubs. Researching this gave some incomplete data but may
be worth exploring, as a way to keep your present wheelset (ie some Shimano sites show no 11-34 11spd, others do but no other info).
The 8000 series Ultegra 11 spd RD can go to 11-36 as is and likely to 11-42 with a Wolf extender. There have been a number of posts
about the electric SRAM and Shimano RD being pushed 4 teeth larger on the cassette than their nominal max. No reason this would not
apply to the mechanical RD as well and the 8000 series Ultegra is clearly designed for larger cassettes than the 6800 series.
under reply #8 there was mention that Shimano's latest 11 spd cassette, the 8000 series Ultegra 11-34 is back compatible with 10 spd hubs
sort of like the 11 spd MTB cassettes being compatible with 10 spd hubs. Researching this gave some incomplete data but may
be worth exploring, as a way to keep your present wheelset (ie some Shimano sites show no 11-34 11spd, others do but no other info).
The 8000 series Ultegra 11 spd RD can go to 11-36 as is and likely to 11-42 with a Wolf extender. There have been a number of posts
about the electric SRAM and Shimano RD being pushed 4 teeth larger on the cassette than their nominal max. No reason this would not
apply to the mechanical RD as well and the 8000 series Ultegra is clearly designed for larger cassettes than the 6800 series.
Last edited by sch; 01-01-18 at 05:30 PM.
#18
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 420
Bikes: 2022 Calfee Tetra, 2023 Giant TCR
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
On a recent thread ( https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...ad-triple.html )
under reply #8 there was mention that Shimano's latest 11 spd cassette, the 8000 series Ultegra 11-34 is back compatible with 10 spd hubs
sort of like the 11 spd MTB cassettes being compatible with 10 spd hubs. Researching this gave some incomplete data but may
be worth exploring, as a way to keep your present wheelset (ie some Shimano sites show no 11-34 11spd, others do but no other info).
under reply #8 there was mention that Shimano's latest 11 spd cassette, the 8000 series Ultegra 11-34 is back compatible with 10 spd hubs
sort of like the 11 spd MTB cassettes being compatible with 10 spd hubs. Researching this gave some incomplete data but may
be worth exploring, as a way to keep your present wheelset (ie some Shimano sites show no 11-34 11spd, others do but no other info).
FH-6800
#19
afraid of whales
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
5 Posts
- I kept the original cranks and mounted modern Shimano 10 speed chainrings from 105 crankset (53/39/24). Cost was ~$50 total (ebay). Setting up a tandem with Ultegra crankset isn't going to be easy or cheap. For that matter, anything except your stock cranks is going to be expensive.
- I bought Tiagra 4603 shifters off ebay that are brand new in OEM bags for $110. I like them because they have the window for chain position (nice to have on a tandem) and external shift cables to help with the extra long rear derailleur cable friction. Also, Tiagra 4603 shifter should work with low-cost 7-8-9 speed MTB derailleurs (of which I have several in my spare parts bin). The Tiagra 4703 have hidden shift cables, lack the chain position window and need a special version rear derailleur. Anything 2x11 requires an 11 speed rear derailleur.
- I stayed with 10 speed so I could use low cost rear hubs. I bought a set of 40H Shimano HF-08 for $180. If I wasn't stuck with 160mm spacing and a rear drum brake I'd just buy 32H Shimano XT 756 rear hub and install a steel axle and 5mm of spacers. I'm building new wheels so I can run 35mm tyres on wider rims. I'm selling the old skinny tyre wheelset because it's cheaper in the end.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,853
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1067 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 259 Times
in
153 Posts
I'm upgrading a 1998 Santana Arriva from 8 speed to 10 speed (and customizing bars/stem/saddles/pedals). Here's the path I took to keep my costs low. I'm not a fan of 2x11, I prefer triples for my own reasons (and choose not to discuss my reasons here on BF ).
- I kept the original cranks and mounted modern Shimano 10 speed chainrings from 105 crankset (53/39/24). Cost was ~$50 total (ebay). Setting up a tandem with Ultegra crankset isn't going to be easy or cheap. For that matter, anything except your stock cranks is going to be expensive.
- I bought Tiagra 4603 shifters off ebay that are brand new in OEM bags for $110. I like them because they have the window for chain position (nice to have on a tandem) and external shift cables to help with the extra long rear derailleur cable friction. Also, Tiagra 4603 shifter should work with low-cost 7-8-9 speed MTB derailleurs (of which I have several in my spare parts bin). The Tiagra 4703 have hidden shift cables, lack the chain position window and need a special version rear derailleur. Anything 2x11 requires an 11 speed rear derailleur.
- I stayed with 10 speed so I could use low cost rear hubs. I bought a set of 40H Shimano HF-08 for $180. If I wasn't stuck with 160mm spacing and a rear drum brake I'd just buy 32H Shimano XT 756 rear hub and install a steel axle and 5mm of spacers. I'm building new wheels so I can run 35mm tyres on wider rims. I'm selling the old skinny tyre wheelset because it's cheaper in the end.
- I kept the original cranks and mounted modern Shimano 10 speed chainrings from 105 crankset (53/39/24). Cost was ~$50 total (ebay). Setting up a tandem with Ultegra crankset isn't going to be easy or cheap. For that matter, anything except your stock cranks is going to be expensive.
- I bought Tiagra 4603 shifters off ebay that are brand new in OEM bags for $110. I like them because they have the window for chain position (nice to have on a tandem) and external shift cables to help with the extra long rear derailleur cable friction. Also, Tiagra 4603 shifter should work with low-cost 7-8-9 speed MTB derailleurs (of which I have several in my spare parts bin). The Tiagra 4703 have hidden shift cables, lack the chain position window and need a special version rear derailleur. Anything 2x11 requires an 11 speed rear derailleur.
- I stayed with 10 speed so I could use low cost rear hubs. I bought a set of 40H Shimano HF-08 for $180. If I wasn't stuck with 160mm spacing and a rear drum brake I'd just buy 32H Shimano XT 756 rear hub and install a steel axle and 5mm of spacers. I'm building new wheels so I can run 35mm tyres on wider rims. I'm selling the old skinny tyre wheelset because it's cheaper in the end.
But if you were desperate for 11sp double without spending too much I would,
- get 11sp cassette and turn 0.070" out of the back. It will then fit your existing wheel.
- New chainrings on your existing cranks. Leave off granny ring. Just not sure if the spacing between chainrings would be too much.
- New, shorter BB at the back to correct chainline. Maybe not essential. Need to make sure new front mech has enough reach too.
#21
Junior Member
Yes I know it's been years since the last post.
#22
alpine cross trainer
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Central New York
Posts: 289
Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Quintara Roo Sendoza, DaVici In-2-Ition Tandem,
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 20 Times
in
8 Posts
Hi. Am in the initial stages of my planning effort to modernize the drivetrain of my 1996 Cannondale Los Dos Tandem. I'd appreciate input from similar experiences modernizing to a 11-speed mechanical for a C'dale.
Current spec:
My main concerns are:
Current spec:
- OEM stock frame and drivetrain (triple chain rings)
- 140mm distance between rear drop outs
- 10 mm rear dropouts slot width
- 26" rims
- 32 mm tires (will carry over)
- External cables
- 295# team weight
- No electronic shifting (e.g. Di2, eTap, etc.)
- 11-speed mechanical rear & shifters (Prefer Shimano Ultegra b/c of familiarity from single bikes, but not committed to it)
- Double front chainrings (brand & model TBD)
- New 26" rims (exact model TBD)
- 140mm hub (Most likely a 40-hole White Ind hub from Tandems East but not committed to it)
My main concerns are:
- Although I've rebuilt cars, and replaced like parts for like parts on bikes, this tandem project puts me in uncharted waters. To wit, I don't know what the foundational parameters are that should be dealt with first.
- For example:
- Will a 140mm hub and 40-spokes (20/20) properly support use of 11-speed with a 295# husband/wife team?
- If I go with Da Vinci cranks, then what do I need to measure on my existing frame so as to spec the front and rear Da Vinci cranksets and bottom bracket?
- Will the new Ultegra R8000 mechanical group still shift well when used with the extra long derailleur cable needed for a tandem frame?
- What concerns are there for chainline dimensions during this build?
- From a standpoint of future-proofing one's investment - What is the potential for the manufacturers to release a roadie 12-speed, for double chainrings, in the next 6-months?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
danbee78
Tandem Cycling
22
03-21-19 07:50 AM
Double0757
Tandem Cycling
5
04-13-16 06:44 PM
Chris_W
Tandem Cycling
3
07-04-12 11:05 AM