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What happens if I don't change the oil in my IGH?

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What happens if I don't change the oil in my IGH?

Old 05-24-21, 08:44 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by SkinGriz
Did you do your penance for stealing the wife’s juice and tea pitcher?
Heh... I used to use a large beer stein for this!
The problem is that the axle extends so far below the gear cluster that a whole bunch of excess oil is required to submerge the gears.
I made a container that cuts way down on the amount of oil needed. See the attached images. A plastic ice cream container has a hole drilled in the bottom to allow the axle to pass through. Then a syringe barrel large enough for the axle is attached with epoxy (I used dental acrylic). Then a "stand" is needed because the container won't balance on the tip of the syringe. The amount of oil shown in the second image is enough to completely submerge the gears.


This syringe, with a small screw in the tip, provides room for the axle.


This is the amount of oil needed to fully submerge a Nexus-8 hub.


A perfect combination for supporting the oil bath!



As Dan pointed out, however, this is not necessary to change the oil in the Alfine-11. A drain plug is removed, and the oil is aspirated out with a syringe and a short tube that screws into the hub. The same syringe, or another one if you want to get fancy, is used to inject the replacement oil. The replacement of the drain plug completes the process. The wheel never leaves the bike.
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Old 05-24-21, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Gresp15C
Oddly enough, if there were metal particles in the oil, it would be black. As for changing the oil, at least on the old SA hubs, it's not so much a matter of changing it, but of replacing what leaks out.
The oil I've removed from my Alfine-11 contains shiny bits of metal. The oil is not black; it remains green (Shimano oil) or purple (the oil I use). The particles are metallic, as evidenced by their collection by a strong magnet.
The first oil change on this hub contained a lot of metallic bits; it had a sort of "shimmer" to it. With subsequent oil changes, the metallic bits have been markedly less visible. Of the hub's capacity (25ml), a few ml will leak out between oil changes, but simply adding oil does not flush out these metallic bits.
FWIW, my hub has 9,000 miles on it and it continues to perform flawlessly.
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Old 05-24-21, 09:17 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by seibaatgung
Same as with a single speed chain drive? Proving the point about ATF being as good as manufactured-to-be-$18-a-vial IGH oil?
Of course single speed chain drive.
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Old 05-24-21, 10:35 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by sweeks
The oil I've removed from my Alfine-11 contains shiny bits of metal.
Some of the cats over in the UK have fitted magnetic drain plugs.

Has the official Shimano oil come down in price? I seem to remember it was north of $80,000 a barrel.
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Old 05-24-21, 10:54 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by tcs
Some of the cats over in the UK have fitted magnetic drain plugs.

Has the official Shimano oil come down in price? I seem to remember it was north of $80,000 a barrel.
I don’t know how big a batch is required for a custom oil blend. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was something like repackaged tellus32. I like synthetic ATF for a lot of general lube type things. I see the other perspective to use the correct stuff because the quantity is small and the manufacturer specified it.
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Old 05-25-21, 06:17 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by SkinGriz
I like synthetic ATF for a lot of general lube type things.
After five decades of trying every chain concoction known to mankind, Mobil 1 ATF is now my #1 preferred chainlube.
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Old 05-25-21, 08:14 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by J.Higgins
After five decades of trying every chain concoction known to mankind, Mobil 1 ATF is now my #1 preferred chainlube.
What about for an IGH?
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Old 05-25-21, 09:09 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by seibaatgung
What about for an IGH?
You seem really confused.
The purpose of lubricating an IGH is to lubricate the internals parts to minimize wear. ATF is meant to cool and lubricate parts that are much more stressed than an IGH, but also to completely submerge the gearing to prevent corrosion. An IGH primarily needs a lubrication that's not going to evaporate and leave a sticky varnish behind, and to provide a measure of corrosion protection for the parts. RJ the bike guy recommends Phil Wood oil to rebuild a 3 speed, because it'll stay where you put it. To use the oil port, Sturmey archer recommended a 5W weight light machine oil, and just a drop weekly in regular use to help flush metal filings from the contact points, and lubricate the bearings.
Overlubrication will wash the grease (if you used grease) from the bearings, and provide a sticky protective film to the hub shell, and just about every everywhere the hub drips.
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Old 05-25-21, 09:20 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
You seem really confused.
The purpose of lubricating an IGH is to lubricate the internals parts to minimize wear. ATF is meant to cool and lubricate parts that are much more stressed than an IGH, but also to completely submerge the gearing to prevent corrosion. An IGH primarily needs a lubrication that's not going to evaporate and leave a sticky varnish behind, and to provide a measure of corrosion protection for the parts. RJ the bike guy recommends Phil Wood oil to rebuild a 3 speed, because it'll stay where you put it. To use the oil port, Sturmey archer recommended a 5W weight light machine oil, and just a drop weekly in regular use to help flush metal filings from the contact points, and lubricate the bearings.
Overlubrication will wash the grease (if you used grease) from the bearings, and provide a sticky protective film to the hub shell, and just about every everywhere the hub drips.
Ok I didn't know the difference between lubing a freewheel and changing the oil on an igh. it's all metal.
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Old 05-25-21, 09:48 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by seibaatgung
Same as with a single speed chain drive? Proving the point about ATF being as good as manufactured-to-be-$18-a-vial IGH oil?
it is simple: maintain the IGH or it will die at a point much sooner than it should.

Beyond that is the choice between something guaranteed to work but is more expensive and something cheaper that may work and may even work well, but will void the warranty

IMHO people worry way to much about the cost of designed for bike lubricants.... (chain, grease, igh) the cost is really nothing unless you have a lot of bikes (or work in a co op or similar who can buy in bulk often)
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Old 05-25-21, 09:59 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by seibaatgung
Ok I didn't know the difference between lubing a freewheel and changing the oil on an igh. it's all metal.
FW bearings can get a light grease to keep the lubrication where it's needed. but the pawls demand a light coating of oil. A frequently used shortcut is to just give the whole FW a bath in something like ATF to flush wear particles out, and relube pawls and bearings. You'd want to clean the excess off of the outside to keep it from accumulating grime and grit.

IGH Hubs are significantly more serviceable than freewheels.
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Old 05-25-21, 11:20 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
RJ the bike guy recommends Phil Wood oil to rebuild a 3 speed, because it'll stay where you put it.
Stay where you put it? Try NLGI #00 semifluid grease - like Sturmey-Archer has used at the factory in all their gear hubs since 1984.

To use the oil port, Sturmey-Archer...
Fun fact: S-A discontinued the oil port in 1984.

...recommended a 5W weight...
Uh, make that 20 weight (in every example of old Sturmey factory literature I've ever seen. Educate me and post otherwise.)
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Old 05-25-21, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tcs
Stay where you put it? Try NLGI #00 semifluid grease - like Sturmey-Archer has used at the factory in all their gear hubs since 1984.



Fun fact: S-A discontinued the oil port in 1984.



Uh, make that 20 weight (in every example of old Sturmey factory literature I've ever seen. Educate me and post otherwise.)
NLGI 2 at $10 a pound. Thanks. I try to minimize the stuff in my shop. You're right about the oil weight, I misremembered the spec. 3 in 1 makes the blue bottle of unadulterated SAE 20 oil that works.
Why would you buy a SA 3 speed hub or the bike equipped with one made after 1984?
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Old 05-25-21, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by seibaatgung
Ok I didn't know the difference between lubing a freewheel and changing the oil on an igh. it's all metal.
This suggests the need to educate yourself before you do any of your own work, park is good place to start https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help
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Old 05-25-21, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
it is simple: maintain the IGH or it will die at a point much sooner than it should.

Beyond that is the choice between something guaranteed to work but is more expensive and something cheaper that may work and may even work well, but will void the warranty

IMHO people worry way to much about the cost of designed for bike lubricants.... (chain, grease, igh) the cost is really nothing unless you have a lot of bikes (or work in a co op or similar who can buy in bulk often)
I'm against it on principle. This is worse than the pentalobe screws on a mac, since you can reuse those.
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Old 05-25-21, 06:55 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by seibaatgung
Proving the point about ATF being as good as manufactured-to-be-$18-a-vial IGH oil?
I bought THIS oil change kit, which oddly enough came from Estonia. There's enough oil there for one oil change (50 ml... half for flushing and half for the "fill"), but most importantly it includes the syringe with the tube and fittings that attach to the hub. These don't have to be replaced! So a quart of good synthetic gear oil (I use THIS oil) costs another $20 (compare that to the "official" SHIMANO OIL!) and you have enough for 20 oil changes... that's over 16,000 miles! You can be even more frugal... I place a plastic container containing the drained oil and "flush" oil inside a large permanent magnet (from an electric lawnmower). The metal fragments are drawn to the periphery, leaving the oil in the center free of ferro-magnetic particles. I draw this oil out with a syringe and use it as "flush" oil. This almost doubles the number of oil changes I'll get out of my quart/liter of Royal Purple. Probably enough to last me the rest of my life!
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Old 05-25-21, 08:25 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by sweeks
I bought THIS oil change kit, which oddly enough came from Estonia. There's enough oil there for one oil change (50 ml... half for flushing and half for the "fill"), but most importantly it includes the syringe with the tube and fittings that attach to the hub. These don't have to be replaced! So a quart of good synthetic gear oil (I use THIS oil) costs another $20 (compare that to the "official" SHIMANO OIL!) and you have enough for 20 oil changes... that's over 16,000 miles! You can be even more frugal... I place a plastic container containing the drained oil and "flush" oil inside a large permanent magnet (from an electric lawnmower). The metal fragments are drawn to the periphery, leaving the oil in the center free of ferro-magnetic particles. I draw this oil out with a syringe and use it as "flush" oil. This almost doubles the number of oil changes I'll get out of my quart/liter of Royal Purple. Probably enough to last me the rest of my life!
Never thought of the magnet trick!
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Old 05-25-21, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
NLGI 2 at $10 a pound. Thanks. I try to minimize the stuff in my shop. You're right about the oil weight, I misremembered the spec. 3 in 1 makes the blue bottle of unadulterated SAE 20 oil that works.
Why would you buy a SA 3 speed hub or the bike equipped with one made after 1984?
He typed NLGI 00. It’s way thinner.
If it was NLGI 2 many would already have it or just pilfer the tiny amount required from work.
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Old 05-26-21, 05:03 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by seibaatgung
Never thought of the magnet trick!
It's possible that there are other wear/breakdown particles that are not attracted to magnets; brass, copper or bronze (the "yellow" metals), but these would be less abrasive. In any case, I only use the recycled oil for the "flush"... the final fill is always fresh oil.
I've been meaning to put some drained, unfiltered oil under a microscope and compare it to the magnetically-filtered oil. If I do this, I will try to get images and post them.
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Old 05-26-21, 01:15 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by sweeks
It's possible that there are other wear/breakdown particles that are not attracted to magnets; brass, copper or bronze (the "yellow" metals), but these would be less abrasive. In any case, I only use the recycled oil for the "flush"... the final fill is always fresh oil.
I've been meaning to put some drained, unfiltered oil under a microscope and compare it to the magnetically-filtered oil. If I do this, I will try to get images and post them.
In theory, yes. But what proportion of those particles would you expect in an all-steel hub?
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Old 05-26-21, 04:19 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
In theory, yes. But what proportion of those particles would you expect in an all-steel hub?
Wise point. It might be similar to taking a magnet to cereal - it might look like you pulled out a lot of iron, but that was dissolved anyways.
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Old 05-26-21, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Unca_Sam
In theory, yes. But what proportion of those particles would you expect in an all-steel hub?
I've never seen the inside of my Alfine 11, so I don't know if there are any bushings or other parts made of brass or bronze. If the hub is, in fact, all steel, there would only be ferro-magnetic particles. I don't worry about the potential for particles that would not be affected by the magnet. Heck, they might just settle to the bottom... I typically don't go back to recover the oil for a couple months or more.
Hmmm... I wonder if there are any hubs with titanium parts.
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Old 05-27-21, 12:38 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by sweeks
Hmmm... I wonder if there are any hubs with titanium parts.
Manufacturers are probably too cheap for that
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Old 05-27-21, 07:56 AM
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Consumers...

Originally Posted by seibaatgung
...are probably too cheap for that
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Old 05-27-21, 08:37 AM
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The question would be whether titanium is actually a good material for the use.

The sintered and turned parts in Sturmey Archer hubs have worked for more than a century.
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