Help identify this old Italian frame
#1
Myrtle Beach Crab
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Help identify this old Italian frame
made an offer from Art Bikes that was accepted for this frame, so won't have it in hand for a while, and they don't know what it is either, accept that they think it's 40's or 50's vintage. has internal cable routing for the RD cable. 115mm rear spacing. any ideas?
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Some hints here:
https://condorino.com/2016/09/12/leg...r-bolt-design/
https://condorino.com/2016/09/12/leg...r-bolt-design/
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iab MauriceMoss
frame appears constructed of all Agrati bits
suspect you will find it to measure ~56cm c-t-t;
Agrati offered their bulge-formed heads in limited heights/lengths; usually for gents frames the smaller one would build a 56cm; the example employed here is likely the smaller of two gents sizes offered in this pattern at this time; it probably measures ~135mm in height
dropouts appear to be Agrati item nr. 000.8002
fork ends appear to be Agrati item nr. 000.8010
crown a variation of Agrati item nr. 000.8058; in later years the oval opening was smaller in size
OEM seat binder likely a Way-Assauto product
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iab MauriceMoss
frame appears constructed of all Agrati bits
suspect you will find it to measure ~56cm c-t-t;
Agrati offered their bulge-formed heads in limited heights/lengths; usually for gents frames the smaller one would build a 56cm; the example employed here is likely the smaller of two gents sizes offered in this pattern at this time; it probably measures ~135mm in height
dropouts appear to be Agrati item nr. 000.8002
fork ends appear to be Agrati item nr. 000.8010
crown a variation of Agrati item nr. 000.8058; in later years the oval opening was smaller in size
OEM seat binder likely a Way-Assauto product
-----
Last edited by juvela; 06-12-21 at 08:27 AM. Reason: addition
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A heroic project
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With the pump pegs on the back of the seat tube, internal brake cable routing, internal routing for likely a Simplex rear derailleur, you likely have a Sport bike from the late 40s. Single ring up front, 3 speed in back and upright bars with the classy bone grips..
Having the binder bolt in front is somewhat rare post war, and it reminds me of something. If it comes to me I'll post.
If you are interested, for bars. Not affiliated with seller.
https://www.ebay.it/itm/Manubrio-Amb...16.m2518.l4276
Having the binder bolt in front is somewhat rare post war, and it reminds me of something. If it comes to me I'll post.
If you are interested, for bars. Not affiliated with seller.
https://www.ebay.it/itm/Manubrio-Amb...16.m2518.l4276
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With the pump pegs on the back of the seat tube, internal brake cable routing, internal routing for likely a Simplex rear derailleur, you likely have a Sport bike from the late 40s. Single ring up front, 3 speed in back and upright bars with the classy bone grips..
Having the binder bolt in front is somewhat rare post war, and it reminds me of something. If it comes to me I'll post.
If you are interested, for bars. Not affiliated with seller.
https://www.ebay.it/itm/Manubrio-Amb...16.m2518.l4276
Having the binder bolt in front is somewhat rare post war, and it reminds me of something. If it comes to me I'll post.
If you are interested, for bars. Not affiliated with seller.
https://www.ebay.it/itm/Manubrio-Amb...16.m2518.l4276
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#9
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With the pump pegs on the back of the seat tube, internal brake cable routing, internal routing for likely a Simplex rear derailleur, you likely have a Sport bike from the late 40s. Single ring up front, 3 speed in back and upright bars with the classy bone grips. Having the binder bolt in front is somewhat rare post war, and it reminds me of something. If it comes to me I'll post.
Ganna 1939
Gloria 1941
Maino 1936
Bianchi 1941, 1949, 1950, 1953
Again, not suggesting that this frame is from any of these makers as I am outside of my expertise on this one to be sure. Juvela would know if the Bianchi seat lug was proprietary to them . . . the other marques listed may have used the Agrati product(s).
regards,
Mark
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I would agree that the general format of the frame would suggest a 'Sportivo' or sport bike and probably a top model given the internal cable routing such as the 'Selvino' from Bianchi although I am not suggesting this is a Bianchi frame. To help you on your way . . . I took a look at a few old catalogs that illustrated the type of seat lug with the binder bolt above the top tube and ahead of the seat post as follows:
Ganna 1939
Gloria 1941
Maino 1936
Bianchi 1941, 1949, 1950, 1953
Again, not suggesting that this frame is from any of these makers as I am outside of my expertise on this one to be sure. Juvela would know if the Bianchi seat lug was proprietary to them . . . the other marques listed may have used the Agrati product(s).
regards,
Mark
Ganna 1939
Gloria 1941
Maino 1936
Bianchi 1941, 1949, 1950, 1953
Again, not suggesting that this frame is from any of these makers as I am outside of my expertise on this one to be sure. Juvela would know if the Bianchi seat lug was proprietary to them . . . the other marques listed may have used the Agrati product(s).
regards,
Mark
thank you so much Mark!
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Fork crown resembles that of my 1962 Bianchi, but I have also heard that low end Bianchis of that day were actually rebranded Chiordas.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
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I would agree that the general format of the frame would suggest a 'Sportivo' or sport bike and probably a top model given the internal cable routing such as the 'Selvino' from Bianchi although I am not suggesting this is a Bianchi frame. To help you on your way . . . I took a look at a few old catalogs that illustrated the type of seat lug with the binder bolt above the top tube and ahead of the seat post as follows:
Ganna 1939
Gloria 1941
Maino 1936
Bianchi 1941, 1949, 1950, 1953
Again, not suggesting that this frame is from any of these makers as I am outside of my expertise on this one to be sure. Juvela would know if the Bianchi seat lug was proprietary to them . . . the other marques listed may have used the Agrati product(s).
regards,
Mark
Ganna 1939
Gloria 1941
Maino 1936
Bianchi 1941, 1949, 1950, 1953
Again, not suggesting that this frame is from any of these makers as I am outside of my expertise on this one to be sure. Juvela would know if the Bianchi seat lug was proprietary to them . . . the other marques listed may have used the Agrati product(s).
regards,
Mark
But post war it is not common. Granted, it is possible this bike could be prewar. Simplex was available then. It's just not very likely. I am 99% confident it is none you listed, the build characteristics of the OP's bike do not match what's typical for Gloria, Ganna, Maino & Bianchi. If I were to make wild-ass guess, I'd say it came out of a small shop in the greater Torino area. Which, I haven't a clue.
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one variable we have not as yet mentioned is shell width
while it is a 99%+ chance that the shell is of seventy mm width there is a slight possibility at it may be of seventy-four mm width
understandably, enthusiasts tend to think of the seventy-four mm as a "Cino thing"
however it was also employed by other italian makers when one gets back far enough in time
if it chanced to be a seventy-four it might narrow the possible manufacturers for the expert detectives...
-----
one variable we have not as yet mentioned is shell width
while it is a 99%+ chance that the shell is of seventy mm width there is a slight possibility at it may be of seventy-four mm width
understandably, enthusiasts tend to think of the seventy-four mm as a "Cino thing"
however it was also employed by other italian makers when one gets back far enough in time
if it chanced to be a seventy-four it might narrow the possible manufacturers for the expert detectives...
-----
#14
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as i won't have the frame for probably a month, measuring the shell width will have to wait for now. aside from the pics, this is the seller write-up..
Vintage frame set for sport bikes, light and well manufactured (we don't know the frame builder)
YEAR OF PRODUCTION
From the 40s / 50s
SPECS
Size center to center: 55 cm (seat tube),
57 cm (top tube) 13 cm (head tube)
Headset: 1"
Bottom bracket shell thread: ITALIAN
Rear dropouts spacing: 115 mm
Seatpost diameter: 26,8 mm
Weight: 2930 grams (frame, fork, headset)
Made of: steel tubes
Vintage frame set for sport bikes, light and well manufactured (we don't know the frame builder)
YEAR OF PRODUCTION
From the 40s / 50s
SPECS
Size center to center: 55 cm (seat tube),
57 cm (top tube) 13 cm (head tube)
Headset: 1"
Bottom bracket shell thread: ITALIAN
Rear dropouts spacing: 115 mm
Seatpost diameter: 26,8 mm
Weight: 2930 grams (frame, fork, headset)
Made of: steel tubes
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Kind of unrelated but I bought some bits from ArtBikes and there packaging was the best I have ever seen. Super meticulous bordering on over the top.
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as i won't have the frame for probably a month, measuring the shell width will have to wait for now. aside from the pics, this is the seller write-up..
Vintage frame set for sport bikes, light and well manufactured (we don't know the frame builder)
YEAR OF PRODUCTION
From the 40s / 50s
SPECS
Size center to center: 55 cm (seat tube),
57 cm (top tube) 13 cm (head tube)
Headset: 1"
Bottom bracket shell thread: ITALIAN
Rear dropouts spacing: 115 mm
Seatpost diameter: 26,8 mm
Weight: 2930 grams (frame, fork, headset)
Made of: steel tubes
Vintage frame set for sport bikes, light and well manufactured (we don't know the frame builder)
YEAR OF PRODUCTION
From the 40s / 50s
SPECS
Size center to center: 55 cm (seat tube),
57 cm (top tube) 13 cm (head tube)
Headset: 1"
Bottom bracket shell thread: ITALIAN
Rear dropouts spacing: 115 mm
Seatpost diameter: 26,8 mm
Weight: 2930 grams (frame, fork, headset)
Made of: steel tubes
thanks very much for this information
the stated frame size and head tube height/length fit right in with the Agrati bulge-formed head dimensions
they typically offered two sizes for gents and two for ladies with the smaller gents being 135mm nominal which yields a frame of 56cm/22" as measured c-t-t
-----
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#18
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thanks very much for this information
the stated frame size and head tube height/length fit right in with the Agrati bulge-formed head dimensions
they typically offered two sizes for gents and two for ladies with the smaller gents being 135mm nominal which yields a frame of 56cm/22" as measured c-t-t
-----
thanks very much for this information
the stated frame size and head tube height/length fit right in with the Agrati bulge-formed head dimensions
they typically offered two sizes for gents and two for ladies with the smaller gents being 135mm nominal which yields a frame of 56cm/22" as measured c-t-t
-----
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Definitely not a Selvino. Well, almost. I have learned never to say never. But a Bianchi Selvino had an integrated headset. The head lugs are all wrong. BB is all wrong. Fork crown, dropout treatment, lack of serial on seat cluster. All of it is atypical to Bianchi.
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this era of bicycles is way out of my wheelhouse, but as i was WFW (waiting for wife) while she was shopping today, i was perusing my cell phone for bike images from that time period, and admittedly cell phone web searching without glasses can be a less than quality experience, the Selvino looked liked a possible candidate. but as was mentioned previously, that type of sport bike was not limited to Bianchi. i haven't noticed any serial numbers from viewing the seller's listing of images, so perhaps it was a small shop production. thanks for everyone's efforts...
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It really doesn't matter who made it, it just oozes cool. I had a Selvino and a Bianchi Sport. Love them and the style of the bike - a city bike with some umpf. My problem is with most bikes in this category, they came in a 55cm, whether you fit or not. I fall on the not end of the spectrum.. Even with the 57 top tube, I had to put on a long stem and jack the seat. It just looked wrong. But cheap to make back in the day.
If you have some extra cash, this just popped on ebay. Cambio corsa Sport bike. Has a braze on for the chain guard. So cool.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/274833572181
If you have some extra cash, this just popped on ebay. Cambio corsa Sport bike. Has a braze on for the chain guard. So cool.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/274833572181
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#22
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It really doesn't matter who made it, it just oozes cool. I had a Selvino and a Bianchi Sport. Love them and the style of the bike - a city bike with some umpf. My problem is with most bikes in this category, they came in a 55cm, whether you fit or not. I fall on the not end of the spectrum.. Even with the 57 top tube, I had to put on a long stem and jack the seat. It just looked wrong. But cheap to make back in the day.
If you have some extra cash, this just popped on ebay. Cambio corsa Sport bike. Has a braze on for the chain guard. So cool.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/274833572181
If you have some extra cash, this just popped on ebay. Cambio corsa Sport bike. Has a braze on for the chain guard. So cool.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/274833572181
#23
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one variable we have not as yet mentioned is shell width
while it is a 99%+ chance that the shell is of seventy mm width there is a slight possibility at it may be of seventy-four mm width
understandably, enthusiasts tend to think of the seventy-four mm as a "Cino thing"
however it was also employed by other italian makers when one gets back far enough in time
if it chanced to be a seventy-four it might narrow the possible manufacturers for the expert detectives...
-----
one variable we have not as yet mentioned is shell width
while it is a 99%+ chance that the shell is of seventy mm width there is a slight possibility at it may be of seventy-four mm width
understandably, enthusiasts tend to think of the seventy-four mm as a "Cino thing"
however it was also employed by other italian makers when one gets back far enough in time
if it chanced to be a seventy-four it might narrow the possible manufacturers for the expert detectives...
-----
Last edited by cocoabeachcrab; 06-22-21 at 01:45 PM.
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certainly puzzling/surprising
perchance iab shall be able to radiate some of his vast illumination...
...or could be as simple as a worker leaning on the facer a bit too heavily...
-----
#25
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certainly puzzling/surprising
perchance iab shall be able to radiate some of his vast illumination...
...or could be as simple as a worker leaning on the facer a bit too heavily...
-----
certainly puzzling/surprising
perchance iab shall be able to radiate some of his vast illumination...
...or could be as simple as a worker leaning on the facer a bit too heavily...
-----