RChung

Estimates of aero drag I've made with field tests out on real roads agree with estimates of aero drag made in the tunnel for the same rider using the same equipment.

RChung

That, and that the legs mostly appear "cylindrical" to the air while the arms and face aren't, so much, and cylinders are pretty sub-optimally shaped. So you've got furry cylinders churning through the air.

veganbikes

That is just crazy how fast those pit stops have become and the double pits are beyond amazing. Under two seconds for all of they do just doesn't seem real. F1 is such an exciting racing field to watch all over the place.

TDF is fun but watching hours of the peloton churning along or some early breakaway churning along before they finally can't do it anymore is just not super exciting. It is still neat and there are certainly some really exciting moments but a good portion is just a long slow grind. It takes a lot of skill and more importantly fitness for the riders but to watch is not as great.

cxwrench

The 'reason' racers shave their legs is 2 fold: much easier to get a rub, and they heal faster/better after the inevitable crash. It might or might not be more aero. Pro Tour level riders, hell any competitive racer, is...or should be concerned about aerodynamics. If it was that much more aero everyone would be clean (face) shaven and also shave their arms. They all wear skinsuits at this point, so they're paying attention to aero drag big time. Try to find more than a couple that shave their arms.

RChung

Racers have been shaving their legs for at least a century, before there were skinsuits or even simple ways to measure aerodynamic drag.

PeteHski

I watched a video yesterday comparing a Tarmac SL6 vs SL7 over a fixed road course at a constant 250W. Same rider, position etc, etc. It was a pretty well executed test. The result was actually quite surprising. The SL7 was quicker by around 2 mins over a 30 min course, so nearly 7% quicker. I expected it to be much less than that and so did the guys doing the test. It wasn't only aero though, the SL7 was a fair bit lighter too and probably had faster tyres (S-works vs Comp builds). I think it was a pretty flat course, so aero would have still been the main differentiator here.

canklecat

Breakaways are a mental game too. The racers and teams know most of the competitors pretty well. Some are physically strong but mentally vulnerable. A strategically timed attack might get inside the head of a guy who's having doubts, despite being physically strong, and tempt him to expend energy he can't afford to use on a chase, or just plain discourage him.

A classic example was Armstrong giving Ullrich "the look" on the Alpe d'Huez in 2001. Both were equally strong physically. Both were equally juiced. And, reportedly, Armstrong respected and liked Ullrich. But Armstrong had a mean streak, while Ullrich was emotionally vulnerable (and has struggled in life after cycling).

Sometimes it plays well to the media, fans and sponsors. Some of Bernard Hinault's breakaways seemed pointless from the perspective of pure strategy, but he, too, could have a mean streak, was among the last of the patrons of the peloton and seemed to indulge in some breakaways to show the others who the boss was, or to dictate the pace of the race. Sometimes he just seemed to enjoy the spotlight, even if he'd eventually get reeled in.

During this TdF Chris Horner talks about tactics and strategies a lot, and often has an insider's insights that wouldn't occur to most observers, commentators and analysts. And when a break seems pointless or counterproductive, he'll say so as well.

Mojo31

F1 races can be lost in the pits. The driver wins on the course.

RChung

That was a pretty terrible test.

RChung

This is just one in a long list of things that makes mass start bike racing much, much better than those other sports where only two teams compete at a time (like baseball, football, basketball or soccer). There are twenty teams with different goals, with prizes for overall, stage winner, best sprinter, best climber, best young rider, best team, most aggressive rider, and each of these have consequences for next year's contracts, both for riders with teams and teams with sponsors. With all these goals and prizes on tap for every stage, combined with the advantages of working within a group vs. going it alone, it's n-person game theory with temporary coalitions, side payments, reneging, bluffs, threats, calls, unenforceable contracts, payback, prisoner dilemmas -- and to achieve your goal you nearly always have to collude with riders on a different team until the moment you pull out the shiv and stick it in their back. And then you do it again the next day.

Most people look at breakaways and think they're futile and doomed. The directeur sportifs are looking at the composition of the breakaways and figuring out who's in 2nd place for the young rider competition and whether that will force the team with 1st place in the white jersey to chase. It's a big game of chicken, with collusion allowed. Mass start racing is about licking the other guy's plate clean before starting on yours.

Psimet2001 

Fun....from a strictly academic point of view.

I always resort to the same position that is summed up well by that Jacques Anquetil quote: "Strange people, bike riders. They imagine a racing bike is made for going quickly. They're wrong. A racing bike is made solely for winning races."

Along the same lines of why most really good triathletes find they do horribly at actual road (mass start) racing. Racing isn't a pure fitness test. Aero is nice. I love running aero gear as much as the next guy... but it's all relative.

My point was that leg shaving existed long before Aero gear. We don't do it because of aero. We do it because by doing so we have "donned the uniform" of our people in an effort to belong. It is nice to have shaved legs when you get road rash on them. I will give you that.

Another thought: I just asked my business partner how many race wins of hers she thinks she can attribute to shaved legs...deeper wheels (remember we make and sell deep wheels), an aero frame, better helmet, etc... "Zero. Every race I have won has been at the end of a crit after everyone followed each other around for 40 minutes and then we all sprinted and I kicked everyone's butt." <--- this is the majority of racing in the US. The non-aero gear always seems to find its way into the same sprints with everyone else. *shrug*

colnago62

A lot of mistakes were made in the wind tunnel also. Early on TT bike fitting, the philosophy was use a wing tunnel to set up the lowest most aero position possible. However, that position didn't account for efficient breathing and so changed after real world experience kicked in.

PeteHski

What? Riding on real roads to get a feel for real world differences. Sure, terrible test.

RChung

People I've helped have won real world TTs, Olympic medals, set world records, and beat their brother-in-law in the annual family race. They were pretty happy, and not just academically.

A guy I helped won his state TT (though to be fair, in his age cat) by 2 seconds. He talked to the guy who finished 2nd, and found out that that guy was putting out 20 watts more than he. Beating someone who puts out more power is allowed. The finish line and stop watch don't care why you're faster: you can do it with more power, or less drag, or both.

I know you make and sell deep wheels. I don't sell anything. Sometimes I get a six pack or lunch, though. I got a nice bottle of wine from the guy who beat his brother-in-law.

RChung

Yup. Terrible test, and it wouldn't have been difficult to do a better one. I do it all the time.

PeteHski

Oh I don't doubt that. I'm not an aero specialist myself (being a mechanical engineer), but I have been involved in a fair few wind tunnel tests in motorsport over the years (Touring cars & F1) and there is plenty of scope for making mistakes. Even the F1 teams sometimes get it wrong. In the 2000-2009 seasons when I was working in F1 as a Race Engineer, we sometimes had new aero parts arriving at the track that didn't work quite as predicted in the tunnel. I've seen whole new aero packages (wings, diffusers, side pods etc) costing millions to develop go into the bin. But on balance, wind tunnel testing, alongside CFD, is critical to success in F1.

PeteHski

Yes, it's not a scientific test for sure. Since you do this kind of thing all the time, what would you expect the difference in time to be with those 2 bikes?

Psimet2001 

Number of sanctioned TT's we are having in this state this year: 0. I honestly can't find one in the state that I can award the State Championship to.

Along those lines - we (the Illinois Local Association for USA Cycling) had to do our own road race just so we could have one in the state this year and have a state championship.

I get how it's some people's thing and main discipline.

Triathletes love it. Nothing like those seconds to help them set PR's as they ride to their 13mph bike leg.

aliasfox

I would say breakaways (and the chasing of) are more of a game of chess. Riders and directors calculate how strong they'll be on the course, who they might be able to bring along, and what effect it will have on any of the jersey standings. Then the teams that are vying for any of those jerseys have to calculate if its worth it for them to chase.

For example, if the highest placed person in a breakaway is +15:00 and in 12th place, teams who have a GC contender in the top 10 will want to defend their position, lest their man gets bumped out. Conversely, the yellow jersey team might be perfectly fine letting that breakaway grow to 7:00, as it doesn't affect their man (and gives them some time to rest). However, if the next day is a rest day (or a flat day), and 2nd and 3rd place riders are only a couple of minutes behind, then the yellow jersey's team might decide to give chase, hoping that setting a higher pace will end up spitting some of the less-prepared teams out the back. Additionally, if things are pretty close at the top, a team may send in a good climber (but not a GC contender) into a mountain breakaway to capture the bonus time so that none of the other GC contenders can grab them.

As for facial hair, I imagine it also has something to do with the fact that one has shoulders right behind ones' chin when riding - a little extra fluff on the face might not matter much if there's a 20" wide wall of shoulder right behind it.

RChung

I haven't tested those two bikes. I try not to know too much about the difference between any two bits of equipment because equipment changes and there's always a new comparison to be made. What I do know a bit about is how to measure aero and rolling and drivetrain drag. Just because a test is done on real roads is not a guarantee that the test is done well. That's an awfully low bar, and the soft bigotry of low expectations, especially when it's not hard to do better. All it would have taken would have been to vary speed and power more, and keep track of a handful of other things.

RChung

The Olympics are still on, the Tour is on right now, and guys are still racing against their brothers-in-law.

PeteHski

I know where you are coming from, but I think their point was to see if there was any blatantly obvious real world advantage in the S-works build without turning it into a science project. I'm sure the 7% difference wasn't entirely accurate, but I expect it was in the ballpark.

canklecat

For the OP, another example of the complex and fluid tactics described by RChung in post #35...

The 1989 UCI Road World Championship, won that year by LeMond who was coming off his spectacular come from behind win in the '89 Tour de France. While every long road race and stage race has the same tactics, I mention this one in particular because there are some YouTube videos of the '89 World's that distill down to an hour or less the classic tactics demonstrated by LeMond.

LeMond was perhaps the last of the old school patrons, the boss of the peloton, a craft he learned the hard way from racing unsupported or barely supported in his youth, and later schooled the hard way in an apprenticeship under Hinault, a notoriously demanding and cranky boss, and an unreliable ally who personally demonstrated all of the complex game theory tactics described by RChung.

In many stages of the TdF, and throughout the '89 World's, LeMond can be seen glaring at fellow riders, gesturing urgently, alternating between cajoling, urging and outright demanding assistance to cover breaks, close gaps, reel in other contenders, modify the pace and grupettos to suit the changing conditions (that World's course was fairly challenging, and a rainy finish made it treacherous -- IOW, perfect for LeMond's abilities and personality).

LeMond's own "team" was a makeshift affair, not devoted to helping him win the race. And if I'm recalling correctly, as of the finish of the TdF LeMond hadn't yet committed to racing in the World's. So, understandably, any US team might not be fully loyal to him. Perfect demonstration of LeMond's abilities as a demanding, assertive (and occasionally petulant) road boss who would try to co-opt the riders for other teams at will. Watching him in that race is like watching a master jazz bandleader conducting an improvisation with other master musicians... some of whom also wanted to be the conductor.

I wish I'd learned that stuff when I raced a few crits in the mid-1970s. Back then I had decent power and speed, but no coaching, no background in cycling, no idea how the whole thing worked, and probably had terrible bike handling skills. I considered it a "win" if I finished in the middle of the pack without crashing. But it gave me a lifelong appreciation for a sport that I sucked at.

Ed Wiser

I good way to learn about racing is to watch Chris Horner explain each stage of the race each day.

He really explains how a race is won and the roles of the riders.

Sy Reene

I always wonder how much different some of these stages would look if there was no communication available with or between the riders. IOW, leaders don't know how much they lead by, the peloton doesn't know by how much they lag behind, etc. Individual GC riders don't know exactly where their main competitors are sitting, etc.