I Said I Would Never EVER Buy An E-Bike...but
#226
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,948
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3949 Post(s)
Liked 7,295 Times
in
2,946 Posts
#227
Full Member
Human power is human power. Motors are motors. They are totally different things. If we don't agree on that basic fundamental premise, I don't know how to respond. Have fun on your ebikes, and please be courteous when you pass us old guys on the bike path riding slow on bikes with low gears. This discussion has been very enlightening for me. I didn't understand the appeal of ebikes other than for commuting before. It never occurred to me that there are people in the world who think motors are essentially the same thing as gears. That explains a lot. I don't agree with you, but at least I understand where you are coming from.
#228
Jedi Master
I don't think you've gained anything from this discussion. Clearly you don't see how motors and human power can work in parallel to give you much the same riding experience once your own power inevitably drops off. For someone who doesn't care about e-bikes you have invested a lot of time in this thread. Why? (that's a rhetorical question btw)
#229
Senior Member
I am not stupid enough to believe that they are the same. I give less than a damn about putting things into nice neat little categories so I can understand them. I care about how bikes feels and how they make me feel. I am a totally intuitive pragmatist, not a rigid logical definer. . . I am well within the regulations and laws and don't care about hypothetical problematic issues created by rigid definitions. I have been retired for 23 years its hard to get very excited about what is and is not a bicycle by narrow definitions. I no longer have enough energy to try to change the world to suit my own ideas.
I am talking about the effects, The advantages of each...
Gearing; Totally human powered, but can/do allow a person go go up hills they couldn't on a single speed... just take longer. (must put in 100% of the energy required to go up the hill.
Small 350 watt or less E-Assist, allows a person to go up hills that they couldn't, even with gearing advantage, less time and lets say 50% of the energy... it actually take to go up the hill.
That IS about the way it works IMO, with larger motors, you can make it up most hills without actually putting in any effort. Thus my moped category... and the reason I am against them being called bicycles. , a little less strict definition then the purists on here.
#230
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,424
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4399 Post(s)
Liked 4,846 Times
in
2,999 Posts
As a representative of the fit-over-fifty group, my opinion about e-bikes on bike paths has nothing to do with ego. A big adventure motorcycle makes over 100hp and goes over 100 mph. Should we let people ride those on the bike path? There has to be a limit. We just disagree on what that limit should be. My personal opinion is no motors on the bike path at all. If you want to ride a motorcycle we have roads for that. If you want to ride off-road motorcycles, we have trails for that too. I couldn't care less about ebikes or motorcycles on the road. I feel the same way getting passed by an ebike as I do a Hayabusa.
#231
Expired Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,535
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3670 Post(s)
Liked 5,422 Times
in
2,756 Posts
I actually appreciate ebikes, don't mind seeing them on the road (don't ride MUPs) some of my friends ride them and I have a Bafang conversion with throttle in the garage waiting for the right frame. It's going to be a blast! Clearly some bikes are human powered, some have motors, be they low watt electric, high watt electric, gas or steam. Motors. Motors. Motors. This is not complicated, no mental gymnastics required. It's bizarre to me that folks will cross the divide and embrace the motorized vehicle, then spend time insisting that one kind of motorized bike is legit and another isn't. If you need, or even just like an ebike, ride whatever kind suits you. All this talk that a teeny motor is effectively the same as gears but a big motor isn't, is just silly. Human power vs some other power source is the only distinction that really matters, legalities aside.
Likes For shelbyfv:
#232
Full Member
I actually appreciate ebikes, don't mind seeing them on the road (don't ride MUPs) some of my friends ride them and I have a Bafang conversion with throttle in the garage waiting for the right frame. It's going to be a blast! Clearly some bikes are human powered, some have motors, be they low watt electric, high watt electric, gas or steam. Motors. Motors. Motors. This is not complicated, no mental gymnastics required. It's bizarre to me that folks will cross the divide and embrace the motorized vehicle, then spend time insisting that one kind of motorized bike is legit and another isn't. If you need, or even just like an ebike, ride whatever kind suits you. All this talk that a teeny motor is effectively the same as gears but a big motor isn't, is just silly. Human power vs some other power source is the only distinction that really matters, legalities aside.
I am not giving up my legal 750 watt heavy big fat e bike.
I just got it working good again today and ready to load it up with food, beverages, ice, camping gear, tools and cloths. Then, load up the dog and go for an off road dirt tour. I will use bike paths to get to where I start so the bike paths are part of the tour. Many roads here are bicycle death traps. I thank god I can cuz some of you are not in charge.
#233
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,424
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4399 Post(s)
Liked 4,846 Times
in
2,999 Posts
I actually appreciate ebikes, don't mind seeing them on the road (don't ride MUPs) some of my friends ride them and I have a Bafang conversion with throttle in the garage waiting for the right frame. It's going to be a blast! Clearly some bikes are human powered, some have motors, be they low watt electric, high watt electric, gas or steam. Motors. Motors. Motors. This is not complicated, no mental gymnastics required. It's bizarre to me that folks will cross the divide and embrace the motorized vehicle, then spend time insisting that one kind of motorized bike is legit and another isn't. If you need, or even just like an ebike, ride whatever kind suits you. All this talk that a teeny motor is effectively the same as gears but a big motor isn't, is just silly. Human power vs some other power source is the only distinction that really matters, legalities aside.
There is no talk that "a teeny motor is effectively the same as gears, but a big motor isn't". You just mashed that up out of context.
#234
Expired Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,535
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3670 Post(s)
Liked 5,422 Times
in
2,756 Posts
Likes For shelbyfv:
#235
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 2,350
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 680 Post(s)
Liked 948 Times
in
555 Posts
I concur even after all the either or people have chimed in. I don't really give a damned about the semantics. I care about how it feels and how I feel on the bike. I don't try to confuse touchy feely things by applying logic Logic is worthless against emotion. Those whom don't think so are bound to be disappointed a lot. .
Touch, feel and perceived emotional satisfaction are the most important issues to me on a bicycle. If those issues are not met to my satisfaction, I am out of there.
Touch, feel and perceived emotional satisfaction are the most important issues to me on a bicycle. If those issues are not met to my satisfaction, I am out of there.
#236
Jedi Master
Okay I do understand your point and agree with it right up to the part I highlighted above in bold. But you should by now have realised that not all e-bikes are dangerous on the bike path and are nothing remotely like conventional motorcycles. There does have to be a limit and in many places there is actually a very sensible limit. But your stubborn all or nothing attitude doesn't allow you to differentiate between a 1500W e-bike with a throttle and a 250W e-bike with no throttle and a 15 mph speed cut-off.
#237
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,424
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4399 Post(s)
Liked 4,846 Times
in
2,999 Posts
It's 750 watts and 20 mph in the US, which on a gravel bike path is faster than 90+% of human powered bikes, so we have teenagers bombing around at 20 mph on fat bikes on narrow gravel paths when people on regular bikes are going 10-15. 250w, with a 15mph cutoff it's still too fast, but I wouldn't be whining about it nearly as much if that's what people were riding.
#238
Full Member
It's 750 watts and 20 mph in the US, which on a gravel bike path is faster than 90+% of human powered bikes, so we have teenagers bombing around at 20 mph on fat bikes on narrow gravel paths when people on regular bikes are going 10-15. 250w, with a 15mph cutoff it's still too fast, but I wouldn't be whining about it nearly as much if that's what people were riding.
#239
Jedi Master
Are we arguing muti-purpose paved bike paths or singletrack. Around here you don't often get to hit 20 on singletrack because of blind corners. The consequences of a bail are severe. Briars, thick poison ivy and black muck line most single track edges. I don't ride much single track anymore. The dog doesn't care for it. .
#240
Full Member
Got my e fat e bike working great again so I decided to go for a ride. Ride was 28 miles (44.7kMim) of roads and 60.4 miles (96.7km) of bike path for a total of 88.4 miles (141.4 km). Climbing was 2,600 feet and time was 6 hours. Midday temperatures were pushing 90 deg F with high humidity. The bike path was largely empty mid day so I could travel fast most of the time. Only problem I encountered was a truck running me into the ditch trying to pass in a short no passing zone. Very typical for Ohio rural narrow hilly roads with no shoulders. Fortunately the ditch was shallow into someone's front yard.
Power used was 1,790 watt hours. for 20.25 watt hours per mile. Average speed was 15.8 mph (25kph) No use of throttle. Total weight was around 300 lb (136 KG) Ride was made without charging the batteries.
Am I tired after that? Yeah.
Power used was 1,790 watt hours. for 20.25 watt hours per mile. Average speed was 15.8 mph (25kph) No use of throttle. Total weight was around 300 lb (136 KG) Ride was made without charging the batteries.
Am I tired after that? Yeah.
Likes For KPREN:
#241
Senior Member
I had my first e-bike experience on vacation 2 weeks ago.It was a pedal assist bike, no throttle, just a button to control the amount of assist. 46 miles with around 1800' of climbing and loved it, especially when the 30-40 mph wind gusts hit on the return ride. Still felt like I got a decentt work out. My biggest fear is living in an apartment having a battery catch fire while charging. The lithium battery technology still has some bugs.
#242
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,424
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4399 Post(s)
Liked 4,846 Times
in
2,999 Posts
I had my first e-bike experience on vacation 2 weeks ago.It was a pedal assist bike, no throttle, just a button to control the amount of assist. 46 miles with around 1800' of climbing and loved it, especially when the 30-40 mph wind gusts hit on the return ride. Still felt like I got a decentt work out. My biggest fear is living in an apartment having a battery catch fire while charging. The lithium battery technology still has some bugs.
#243
Senior Member
Sounds like small watt numbers of assist, at first glance... But, on my average rides when I ride 100Km+ I use 420 watts/100Km= 4.2 watts per Km, 7 watts /mile. Those numbers should tell you something about how much assist you are "actually" using compared to an 350 watt E-Assist bicycle...
#244
Full Member
Sounds like small watt numbers of assist, at first glance... But, on my average rides when I ride 100Km+ I use 420 watts/100Km= 4.2 watts per Km, 7 watts /mile. Those numbers should tell you something about how much assist you are "actually" using compared to an 350 watt E-Assist bicycle...
At full touring weight and max power I am at just less than 4 watts per KG. Your 350 watts would put me down around 1.8 watts per KG and I could not go much off the pavement or climb steep grades. I would be too slow to balance.
#245
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,424
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4399 Post(s)
Liked 4,846 Times
in
2,999 Posts
In pure human cycling terms 4W/kg is a pretty strong rider at their threshold. 1.8W/kg would be a novice rider close to their threshold or a strong rider in cruise mode. I agree that steep grades would be extremely slow at 1.8W/kg.
#246
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,673
Bikes: '06 Bianchi Pista; '57 Maclean; '10 Scott CR1 Pro; 2005 Trek 2000 Tandem; '09 Comotion Macchiato Tandem; 199? Novara Road; '17 Circe Helios e-tandem:1994 Trek 2300
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked 93 Times
in
61 Posts
#247
Jedi Master
Yes, but you don’t appear to know the difference between a e-bike and a pedelec, the former, by definition, has a throttle and the latter has pedal assistance and no throttle. See www.stromer.com
Likes For kingston:
#248
Full Member
Yes Pete but remember its' a fat bike and I was averaging 2.9 Watts per mile at 20 mph much of the time. You would gladly put me down at the 1.8 watts max without my trailer or 1.28 watts max with my trailer. Remember you have to be spinning at near max rpm to get those max watts. No matter how you cut it, 750 watts is not ridiculous for my bike in comparison to your bike and what you do with it.. You would still out accelerate me and outclimb me at your 250 watts. I have a very high rolling resistance and wind resistance and prefer dirt, gravel, sand and snow. Now you add in the fact that I am 66 years old not 36 and you begin to get the picture of why I resist your blanket 250 watt statements for everywhere in the world. That 750 watt capacity doesn't just magically disappear, any more than excess power does with an automobile, when I am on a paved bike path at 13-15 mph using 75 watts (100 watts battery power). and seeing 7 watt hours per mile.
#249
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,424
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4399 Post(s)
Liked 4,846 Times
in
2,999 Posts
Yes Pete but remember its' a fat bike and I was averaging 2.9 Watts per mile at 20 mph much of the time. You would gladly put me down at the 1.8 watts max without my trailer or 1.28 watts max with my trailer. Remember you have to be spinning at near max rpm to get those max watts. No matter how you cut it, 750 watts is not ridiculous for my bike in comparison to your bike and what you do with it.. You would still out accelerate me and outclimb me at your 250 watts. I have a very high rolling resistance and wind resistance and prefer dirt, gravel, sand and snow. Now you add in the fact that I am 66 years old not 36 and you begin to get the picture of why I resist your blanket 250 watt statements for everywhere in the world. That 750 watt capacity doesn't just magically disappear, any more than excess power does with an automobile, when I am on a paved bike path at 13-15 mph using 75 watts (100 watts battery power). and seeing 7 watt hours per mile.
Just for clarity, I feel that the 250W limit is only appropriate for the powered equivalent of a regular bicycle on a path reserved for bicycles. I appreciate your paths and e-bike are quite a different thing. A 250W assist would provide me with a combined 7W/kg output at threshold power. Which is why I don't feel the need to ride a powered bicycle at this point.
#250
Expired Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,535
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3670 Post(s)
Liked 5,422 Times
in
2,756 Posts
If I could generate an additional 250 watts I'd be a cycling god in my group!