tomato coupe

People who see things as "black or white" or "all or nothing" rarely do.

KPREN

I am not stupid enough to believe that they are the same. I give less than a damn about putting things into nice neat little categories so I can understand them. I care about how bikes feels and how they make me feel. I am a totally intuitive pragmatist, not a rigid logical definer. . . I am well within the regulations and laws and don't care about hypothetical problematic issues created by rigid definitions. I have been retired for 23 years its hard to get very excited about what is and is not a bicycle by narrow definitions. I no longer have enough energy to try to change the world to suit my own ideas.

kingston 

I care about ebikes. I think they are stupid and wish they weren't allowed on the bike path. My opinions haven't changed but I understand the other point of view better. I guess that's something.

350htrr

Nobody said they were the same...Human power is human power, electric motors are electric ,motors... TOTALY, different.

I am talking about the effects, The advantages of each...

Gearing; Totally human powered, but can/do allow a person go go up hills they couldn't on a single speed... just take longer. (must put in 100% of the energy required to go up the hill.

Small 350 watt or less E-Assist, allows a person to go up hills that they couldn't, even with gearing advantage, less time and lets say 50% of the energy... it actually take to go up the hill.

That IS about the way it works IMO, with larger motors, you can make it up most hills without actually putting in any effort. Thus my moped category... and the reason I am against them being called bicycles. , a little less strict definition then the purists on here.

PeteHski

Okay I do understand your point and agree with it right up to the part I highlighted above in bold. But you should by now have realised that not all e-bikes are dangerous on the bike path and are nothing remotely like conventional motorcycles. There does have to be a limit and in many places there is actually a very sensible limit. But your stubborn all or nothing attitude doesn't allow you to differentiate between a 1500W e-bike with a throttle and a 250W e-bike with no throttle and a 15 mph speed cut-off.

shelbyfv

I actually appreciate ebikes, don't mind seeing them on the road (don't ride MUPs) some of my friends ride them and I have a Bafang conversion with throttle in the garage waiting for the right frame. It's going to be a blast! Clearly some bikes are human powered, some have motors, be they low watt electric, high watt electric, gas or steam. Motors. Motors. Motors. This is not complicated, no mental gymnastics required. It's bizarre to me that folks will cross the divide and embrace the motorized vehicle, then spend time insisting that one kind of motorized bike is legit and another isn't. If you need, or even just like an ebike, ride whatever kind suits you. All this talk that a teeny motor is effectively the same as gears but a big motor isn't, is just silly. Human power vs some other power source is the only distinction that really matters, legalities aside.

KPREN

The only distinction that matters is what the regulations are. Not whether they have a motor or not. All else is just opinions and busy banter.
I am not giving up my legal 750 watt heavy big fat e bike.
I just got it working good again today and ready to load it up with food, beverages, ice, camping gear, tools and cloths. Then, load up the dog and go for an off road dirt tour. I will use bike paths to get to where I start so the bike paths are part of the tour. Many roads here are bicycle death traps. I thank god I can cuz some of you are not in charge.

PeteHski

All e-bikes are "legit" in their appropriate environments and uses, which is a very broad spectrum.

There is no talk that "a teeny motor is effectively the same as gears, but a big motor isn't". You just mashed that up out of context.

shelbyfv

Wrong. Half this thread is ebikers dissing other ebikers. Y'all should embrace each other

fooferdoggie 

totally. I never got the miles in on my road bike or recumbent as I do on my e bikes. sometimes I ride too much and wear myself out. I find if I am feeling a little tired going up one level on assist I tend to work jsut as hard according to my watt meter and heart rate but it does not feel as hard. I cant believe I commute 20 miles a day then get home hop on the e tandem with my wife and do another 20 miles 5 day a week sometimes a bit less on the tandem then do 30 to 50 miles a day on the tandem on weekends.

kingston 

It's 750 watts and 20 mph in the US, which on a gravel bike path is faster than 90+% of human powered bikes, so we have teenagers bombing around at 20 mph on fat bikes on narrow gravel paths when people on regular bikes are going 10-15. 250w, with a 15mph cutoff it's still too fast, but I wouldn't be whining about it nearly as much if that's what people were riding.

PeteHski

I definitely see your issue about the 750W e-bikes mixing it with normal bicycles on narrow paths. 15 mph might be too fast in some situations, but the legal ones over here have to be pedalled quite hard by human power to get to 15 mph and stay there. No throttles allowed and you can't just get away with a token gesture spin. If you back-off the human power, you lose your motor power too. Only time they are really quicker than normal bicycles is when riding up steep hills. The rest is a wash. I know this from experience riding with our daughters on e-bikes. I can ride faster than them on the flat or downhill on my normal bike, but they can leave me for dead on a 10% climb.

KPREN

Are we arguing muti-purpose paved bike paths or singletrack. Around here you don't often get to hit 20 on singletrack because of blind corners. The consequences of a bail are severe. Briars, thick poison ivy and black muck line most single track edges. I don't ride much single track anymore. The dog doesn't care for it. .

kingston 

My personal unpleasant encounters with ebikes going too fast have been on the Des Plaines River Trail, which is a 60 mile gravel path that runs along the Des Plaines river from the Wisconsin border to the north side of Chicago. It's neither a multi-purpose paved path nor singletrack, but something in between. On the north end it's mostly ~8-12' wide gravel path with some gentle curves and little hills. On the south end there are some singletrack sections that are pretty muddy when they're not flooded. I can't recall ever being passed by an ebike on a paved path. I ride a lot of singletrack, but it's on a motorcycle on designated motorcycle trails so there are no bicycles to worry about.

KPREN

Got my e fat e bike working great again so I decided to go for a ride. Ride was 28 miles (44.7kMim) of roads and 60.4 miles (96.7km) of bike path for a total of 88.4 miles (141.4 km). Climbing was 2,600 feet and time was 6 hours. Midday temperatures were pushing 90 deg F with high humidity. The bike path was largely empty mid day so I could travel fast most of the time. Only problem I encountered was a truck running me into the ditch trying to pass in a short no passing zone. Very typical for Ohio rural narrow hilly roads with no shoulders. Fortunately the ditch was shallow into someone's front yard.

Power used was 1,790 watt hours. for 20.25 watt hours per mile. Average speed was 15.8 mph (25kph) No use of throttle. Total weight was around 300 lb (136 KG) Ride was made without charging the batteries.

Am I tired after that? Yeah.

dendawg

I had my first e-bike experience on vacation 2 weeks ago.It was a pedal assist bike, no throttle, just a button to control the amount of assist. 46 miles with around 1800' of climbing and loved it, especially when the 30-40 mph wind gusts hit on the return ride. Still felt like I got a decentt work out. My biggest fear is living in an apartment having a battery catch fire while charging. The lithium battery technology still has some bugs.

PeteHski

It's not a significant risk unless you start messing around with cheap after-market unbranded batteries. Considering all the other fire risks in and around your apartment, it would be well within the noise.

350htrr

Sounds like small watt numbers of assist, at first glance... But, on my average rides when I ride 100Km+ I use 420 watts/100Km= 4.2 watts per Km, 7 watts /mile. Those numbers should tell you something about how much assist you are "actually" using compared to an 350 watt E-Assist bicycle...

KPREN

7 watt hours per mile would be consistent with me on my wife's 38 lb 750 watt e bike at 15 mph but not my 82 lb touring fat e bike at 20mph whenever the conditions permit.
At full touring weight and max power I am at just less than 4 watts per KG. Your 350 watts would put me down around 1.8 watts per KG and I could not go much off the pavement or climb steep grades. I would be too slow to balance.

PeteHski

In pure human cycling terms 4W/kg is a pretty strong rider at their threshold. 1.8W/kg would be a novice rider close to their threshold or a strong rider in cruise mode. I agree that steep grades would be extremely slow at 1.8W/kg.

Artmo 

Yes, but you don’t appear to know the difference between a e-bike and a pedelec, the former, by definition, has a throttle and the latter has pedal assistance and no throttle. See www.stromer.com

kingston 

No. You're wrong. I understand the difference and it's irrelevant to me since I have no interest in ebikes other than my advocacy for prohibiting them from bike paths.

KPREN

Yes Pete but remember its' a fat bike and I was averaging 2.9 Watts per mile at 20 mph much of the time. You would gladly put me down at the 1.8 watts max without my trailer or 1.28 watts max with my trailer. Remember you have to be spinning at near max rpm to get those max watts. No matter how you cut it, 750 watts is not ridiculous for my bike in comparison to your bike and what you do with it.. You would still out accelerate me and outclimb me at your 250 watts. I have a very high rolling resistance and wind resistance and prefer dirt, gravel, sand and snow. Now you add in the fact that I am 66 years old not 36 and you begin to get the picture of why I resist your blanket 250 watt statements for everywhere in the world. That 750 watt capacity doesn't just magically disappear, any more than excess power does with an automobile, when I am on a paved bike path at 13-15 mph using 75 watts (100 watts battery power). and seeing 7 watt hours per mile.

PeteHski

I don't disagree. I was actually supporting your numbers with my post. 20 mph is about what a strong rider would be typically averaging on a solo road ride. 1.8W/kg as a maximum would be pretty inadequate to get up a steep hill at a reasonable speed.

Just for clarity, I feel that the 250W limit is only appropriate for the powered equivalent of a regular bicycle on a path reserved for bicycles. I appreciate your paths and e-bike are quite a different thing. A 250W assist would provide me with a combined 7W/kg output at threshold power. Which is why I don't feel the need to ride a powered bicycle at this point.

shelbyfv

If I could generate an additional 250 watts I'd be a cycling god in my group!