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Help Let me know what frame you think this is. SOLVED!

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Help Let me know what frame you think this is. SOLVED!

Old 04-02-21, 09:50 AM
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Help Let me know what frame you think this is. SOLVED!

Hey guys. A friend in town has this frameset. He got it from Mark Gorski himself. The 84 Olympic track gold metal winner. It was one of his training bikes! We're still trying to get a hold of Mark to find out what this frame is. Check out the pics and the vid. Let me know what you think. More clues in the video. It is Italian threaded, Full Columbus tubes!



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Old 04-02-21, 02:25 PM
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Not a Masi bottom bracket shell.

The Masi M appears much more like the University of Michigan M.

Last edited by repechage; 04-02-21 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 04-02-21, 06:01 PM
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Back in the early 80's sponsor money was pretty big for a lot of professional riders. Our team was offered $10,000 to be riding a Raleigh USA labeled bike over the finish line at RAAM. AMF was also a fairly big sponsor as well, they were providing all of the bikes for the Little Five Hundred bike race every year. That was about 300 bikes that were donated to the bike race. I suspect the stay end caps were easy to produce and have added to a frame that was being built as a custom for a professional rider. I would think that the frame geometry was not in the touring type of design so the add-ons are a bit suspect as the owner note in the video. There are a handful of builders in the mid-west who could have brazed this one together. Fatic was busy building about this time and may have put it together for Mark, but is just a guess. Smiles, MH
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Old 04-02-21, 06:51 PM
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I've only seen that style of fork crown stiffener on Viners and Riggios. The rest of the bike not a match however. Guess- Moser?
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Old 04-02-21, 06:59 PM
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Harley Davidson.
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Old 04-02-21, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk
...There are a handful of builders in the mid-west who could have brazed this one together. Fattic was busy building about this time and may have put it together for Mark, but is just a guess. Smiles, MH
I didn't build it. In the late 70's and early 80's I built a few frames for IU guys that rode in the Little 500. By that I mean their personal frames and not what they rode in the 500. I remember one guy coming by to see if somehow a Little 500 bike could be made out of 531. From what I understand, that was against the rules. They all had to ride the same beaters. Did that rule get changed?
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Old 04-02-21, 10:21 PM
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Shot in the dark here - especially since I know I've seen a much smaller M on the BB's for this brand - but how about Marinoni? Probably not the case, but they did build the '84 Raleigh USA bikes for the Olympic team; a contracted team frame like this wouldn't necessarily be out of the question for them.

One thing to note is that the BB appears to be cast with the cutout. The edge doesn't look milled.

-Kurt
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Old 04-03-21, 07:08 AM
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Marinoni, being born in Italy and trained by Rossin did build with Italian threading. The ''M" cutout is the correct size and shape for circa 1980. The only issue is that the orientation is reversed. Typically, the narrow leg is on the left, not the right. The S/N format also matches Marinoni and, if so, represents 1980, which would be a good fit with the Portacatena dropouts. It should be easy enough to verify or refute by contacting Marinoni with the serial number. They have all their old build sheets and, in my experience, are very helpful in this regard.

Edit: S/N would indicate 1981, not 1980 as typed.

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Old 04-03-21, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar
The only issue is that the orientation is reversed.
Mistake by the BB manufacturer? The stamping blank would have been in the correct orientation; could be someone screwed up and forgot that it would wind up reversed when transferred to the shell.

-Kurt
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Old 04-03-21, 09:13 AM
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It seems that many believe its an Marinoni. Ive seen a few with the same lugs. I wish I could find another one to confirm and confirm what decals were on it so I could restore it to it's original glory.

Thanks for your input everyone!

jj
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Old 04-03-21, 10:42 AM
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Second question: who made this (IC?) BB shell? Never seen that mark on a shell before but looks to be cast-in. Did Marinoni have a "special connection" to an Italian mfgr.?
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Old 04-03-21, 04:09 PM
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@doug Fatic,
That rule is still in effect. I was the chief steward for the race during the late 70's and early 80's so I was in charge of being sure they were all the same. That meant a lot of late night bike checks and calling offending teams to come change front chain rings and rear rings to hold the gearing the same for all teams. I also required 3X spoke patterns to keep chances of wrecks with injuries. So many teams tried to make a change to radial lacing for the wheels. My thought process was the radial spoke pattern would break down from the hard braking force applied during every exchange of rider. The idea was to prevent riders from serious injury from mechanical failures. Having to call a team mechanic and tell him that the rear hub was assembled wrong and the braking mechanism would not work was not a pleasant thing to do. I heard a lot of belly-aching from riders and mechanics but there were no serious injuries during my watch for the race.
AMF was the major supplier of race bikes during that time. In the nineties the Student Foundation moved to a bidding process for race suppliers and there have been multiple suppliers since then. My racing days were on the old track and football stadium that was used for the last time to film Breaking Away, and then torn down and turned into an Arboretum. There is now a Bell Tower that is roughly where turn one and two were on the track. The race today is run at the Armstrong Stadium and the infield is the home of our soccer team. I trust all is well for you and spring in southern Michigan has not been too harsh. Smiles, MH

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Old 04-03-21, 06:06 PM
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This same question about who made these AMF frames came up on the Classic Rendezvous list and George Mount responded: No "mystery. Marinoni made bikes one year and Eisentraut another year. I have my amf marinoni still stock equipment in my garage. 78 or 79, can't recall which one which year."

George Mount was one of our best American racers in the 70's. We thought it was amazing he came in 6th at the Olympic
road race in 1976. Our level in the States in that era was nowhere near the Europeans.
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Old 04-03-21, 07:35 PM
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Updated video coming soon! I found someone with the same bike. George Mount contacted me as well. He sent me pics.

Marinoni it is!

John
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Old 04-03-21, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk
@doug Fatic,
That rule is still in effect. I was the chief steward for the race during the late 70's and early 80's so I was in charge of being sure they were all the same. That meant a lot of late night bike checks and calling offending teams to come change front chain rings and rear rings to hold the gearing the same for all teams. I also required 3X spoke patterns to keep chances of wrecks with injuries. So many teams tried to make a change to radial lacing for the wheels. My thought process was the radial spoke pattern would break down from the hard braking force applied during every exchange of rider. The idea was to prevent riders from serious injury from mechanical failures. Having to call a team mechanic and tell him that the rear hub was assembled wrong and the braking mechanism would not work was not a pleasant thing to do. I heard a lot of belly-aching from riders and mechanics but there were no serious injuries during my watch for the race.
AMF was the major supplier of race bikes during that time. In the nineties the Student Foundation moved to a bidding process for race suppliers and there have been multiple suppliers since then. My racing days were on the old track and football stadium that was used for the last time to film Breaking Away, and then torn down and turned into an Arboretum. There is now a Bell Tower that is roughly where turn one and two were on the track. The race today is run at the Armstrong Stadium and the infield is the home of our soccer team. I trust all is well for you and spring in southern Michigan has not been too harsh. Smiles, MH

Wow, Thanks for the history lesson. Awsome.

Thanks

JJ
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Old 04-03-21, 09:36 PM
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Mark Gorski's mystery frame solved

Thanks to you guys here on BikeForums the mystery is solved. Also someone posted my video on Classic Rendezvous. George Mount saw my video and responded. Check out the video!
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Old 04-03-21, 10:10 PM
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jjhabbs,
It is pretty easy when it is reality. Just like what Doug says about having one in the garage. Sometimes it is best to find the folks who have good documentation. I would suggest a trip to Niles for you from Chicago (heck it is only an hour away on I-94). The early seventies were a great time to be in the bike business, and the eighties were even better (I think we sold about $1m in 1982 at the Castleton location). And then I came back to Bloomington to work in the bike industry and then for the University. There are a bunch of folks who were active in cycling that are still around the middle Indiana area. Myself, Tom Schwoegler, Bob Holohan, Steve Dodds, Jeanne Smith, and a few others. Lots of folks even Race Across America riders including the Haldemans, Beeson, And Tanner, from just here in the local area. I am lucky to have been a part of this great history, and racing memories. Smile, MH
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Old 04-04-21, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk
jjhabbs,
It is pretty easy when it is reality. Just like what Doug says about having one in the garage. Sometimes it is best to find the folks who have good documentation. I would suggest a trip to Niles for you from Chicago (heck it is only an hour away on I-94). The early seventies were a great time to be in the bike business, and the eighties were even better (I think we sold about $1m in 1982 at the Castleton location). And then I came back to Bloomington to work in the bike industry and then for the University. There are a bunch of folks who were active in cycling that are still around the middle Indiana area. Myself, Tom Schwoegler, Bob Holohan, Steve Dodds, Jeanne Smith, and a few others. Lots of folks even Race Across America riders including the Haldemans, Beeson, And Tanner, from just here in the local area. I am lucky to have been a part of this great history, and racing memories. Smile, MH
You're right! When your there and experiencing the culture the knowledge comes easier. I worked at a shop from 82 to 89 and selling bicycles was like shooting fish in a barrel. We only know what we are exposed to. We carried Schwinn, Trek, Miyata, Nishiki, and Cannondale. Of course we fixed many other brands. Cruising thru Ochsner, Ten Speed Drive imports and others exposed me to much more. But still limited. After that I was the GT sales rep for Chicago from 89 to 99 and that was a great time. Honestly my love for the bicycle diminished, All the brands turned into a decal on a China made bicycle. Once I started collecting the classics my love increased.

Niles isn't far from me. Whats in Niles I need to go see?

Cheers.

JJ
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Old 04-04-21, 06:17 AM
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Nice that you got that feedback! The CR list has some impressive folks who mostly lurk, but speak up now and then.

It would be great to see the frame restored, but that probably depends on finding someone who would ride it and could justify the expense.

Steve in Peoria
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Old 04-04-21, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jjhabbs
...Niles isn't far from me. Whats in Niles I need to go see? JJ
Niles is a town of 15.000 that used to be a manufacturing hub but of course most of those companies have closed. It is just across the state line from South Bend, Indiana and Notre Dame University. A new bike trail has been opened between the 2 cities. I joke in my pre-class information emails to my students coming to learn how to build frames that Niles is the go-to vacation spot for in-the-know cool people. There is a number of antique shops including one in the former Montgomery Ward store. He was born in Niles. The St. Joe river divides the town and part of the bicycle trail goes along its shore. My art students recognize the French Paper Mill company that has a dam on the river to power its machines.

Niles has a museum behind a fantastic old house that became the city hall. It houses 12 pictographs drawn by Sitting Bull. He is famous because of the Battle of the Little Bighorn (often known as Custer's Last Stand). On their day off some of my frame building class students go to the Studebaker Museum in South Bend.

If you take I-94 and US 12 to Niles (instead of taking the Indiana Toll Road) you go through the small town of Three Oaks, Michigan - which is the start and finish for the 5000 rider Apple Cider Century in the fall. It has a bicycle museum you probably want to stop and see. It houses a very light weight steel bicycle I made in the late 70's.

I look forward to you stopping my to see my framebuiding shop and my small collection of C&V frames I keep around to inspire students.
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Old 04-04-21, 08:13 AM
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I have a question. After spending time and effort to determine what it was, why would you do anything other than make it what it was?
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Old 04-04-21, 08:19 AM
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What gets me is why AMF would fund the creation of a sponsored bike and then allow the contract builder to throw their logos on it. Hard to tell it's an AMF when it clearly reads "Marinoni" if it gets photographed and winds up in a cycling publication.

-Kurt
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Old 04-04-21, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Mistake by the BB manufacturer? The stamping blank would have been in the correct orientation; could be someone screwed up and forgot that it would wind up reversed when transferred to the shell.

-Kurt
Yes, that's a possibility. If so, the stamping die must have broken sometime between 1980 and 1981, as the I've seem frames with 1980 S/N having the correct orientation. You can't reverse the orientation on a stamping die or mould insert. They would have to have been manufactured incorrectly.

The only situation where it could be reversed would be if it was milled using a through-hole template. I know that Marinoni had a pantograph milling machine but typically templates are blind hole, which would make reversal impossible, unless the template was in error.
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Old 04-04-21, 09:59 AM
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Was there not a thread on this already active?
or is this a campaign for video views?
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Old 04-04-21, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar
Yes, that's a possibility. If so, the stamping die must have broken sometime between 1980 and 1981, as the I've seem frames with 1980 S/N having the correct orientation. You can't reverse the orientation on a stamping die or mould insert. They would have to have been manufactured incorrectly.

The only situation where it could be reversed would be if it was milled using a through-hole template. I know that Marinoni had a pantograph milling machine but typically templates are blind hole, which would make reversal impossible, unless the template was in error.
I recall years back seeing the same issue with a "reverse M" on a frame that was ID'd as a genuine Marinoni, but in that case I think it was on a forkcrown. Wherever that was located it has happened before.
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