eddiepliers 

I did my first sufferfest last night. I did the Angels workout and I felt the threshold from the Angels program, but I look back from a standard trainer ride and my results are higher than when I did Angels. With the regular trainer workout i just pretty much mashed pedals without any real interval training. I just set three or four intervals for the entire one-hour workout.

Here are the two workouts:

The Angels workout - https://connect.garmin.com/activity/135618586

The standard workout - https://connect.garmin.com/activity/134736790

Do you all have variances like this?

MrTuner1970

"results are higher"?

You mean average speed is higher? Heart rate? Something else?

dnuzzomueller

You are probably one of those gifted people who can concentrate without external motivation. Most others (me) need things like the videos to actually motivate and not go: "This is stupid, and boring!" after 10 minutes.

hhnngg1

You will always have a faster average speed by doing 'longer' steady state speeds, like longer (or no) intervals.

This doesn't mean you're getting a harder workout. It's much harder to hold numerous fast, short intervals with high speeds/power than it is to steady state your way through them. That's probably why you seem 'faster' on the unstructured workout compared to Angels, which will likely make you do more intervals than you otherwise would do.

For racing TTs, hold a steady state power the whole way to optimize your overall time. For intervals in training though, focus on your max sustainable speed for the aggregate intervals, and don't worry about the average, as it will always be lower than a similar steady state effort for you.

halfspeed

It's hard to tell much without power data. The max heart rate is pretty significantly lower, but that could be a mostly due to the difference in the type of workout. In the "better" workout, you might be doing more short hard efforts while in the "worse" workout, you're doing more sustained efforts at threshold.

eddiepliers 

The ride without Angels, I watched Ip Man, but then quit 20 mins in because I was needing a different mindset. Then I started watching an episode of Lost. Sometimes I watch movies, sometimes I put earphones in and listen to anything like I am on the road.

I hear you on that. I have been planning on buying a TT bike, a Quarq/powertap, or maybe a rock'n'roll trainer with funds that I will be saving over time.

Even while I'm on the trainer, my heart rate is much lower than on the road, and to see my heart rate lower on the Angels workout kinda makes me think if I'm actually pushing myself to the "Sufferfest limit." Like the quote above, I do think of getting a powertap/quarq in the future.

rangerdavid

I also did my first Sufferfest workout the yesterday. I did Angles and thought it was a great workout.


I guess you get out of it what you put into it.

hhnngg1

If the OP is using the same trainer settings for each workout, speed is proportional to power - you might not know the exact speed to power curve ratio since it's not a linear relationship, but for sure, if your rear wheel speed is faster on the trainer, you are putting out more wattage. If he's got a Cycleops2 or KK trainer, it's even better, as there are equations that have been shown in practice to be quite accurate to directly translate your trainer speed to power wattage.

The Cycleops2 or KK can definitely be used as a poor man's powermeter with very good reliability. I check my tire pressure before the workout to 100 psi on mine, and I can even feel the difference between a 0.3mph difference in speed between workouts, and for long 60+ min workouts, even a 0.1mph difference is palpable over the course of the averaged workout.

MrTuner1970

OP, my guess is that you have the wrong expectations of Sufferfest. E.g., if you want it to be something that you just get a higher average speed for that trainer workout, it's the wrong way of looking at it. Sufferfest is another way to do intervals training. It improves your engine's capacity (if done correctly).

I love the trainer now that I've found Sufferfest. Bought all nine videos, and have done three so far. Will do another today.

What RD says below about what you put into is so true. If you're really putting out (following the RPE: 8/10 efforts, etc.), you'll be tired at the end. And you'll get better the only honest way: by small increments over time.

ne_dan

So what's the over/under over there that the groundhog will see it's shadow?

simonaway427

I'm no fitness expert here, but I think the heart rate profile tells the story here. Given the structure of Sufferfest workouts, I would have expected to see more distinct effort and rest periods shown by your heart rate - but there's not. There is minimal variance between the efforts and the rests....which means two things - you either weren't trying hard enough during the efforts, or you weren't truly resting in an effort to keep your avg speed higher (I used to be guilty of this) - or both.

Here's a recent Fight Club workout I did. I went balls to the walls on this one - and you can see my heart rate followed suit.
https://connect.garmin.com/activity/135546396

Here's a Revolver session
https://connect.garmin.com/activity/132419704

The big lesson I've learned during my indoor training - don't measure success of your workout based on the average speed of the session - you'll have the tendency to cheat during the warmup/cool downs and the rest periods by riding faster. Now you're trying to balance a half-a$$ed rest period with the hard efforts so you don't burn out early - so now you don't try as hard during the efforts. Screw that methodology. Rest means REST - soft pedal on the inner chain ring, take in some water, stretch it out. That will allow you to truly benefit from the efforts.

Perp

Here's my last workout from angels

https://connect.garmin.com/activity/134986687
Not sure what your max heart rate is, but looking at your HR data, doesn't seem you are doing a real 8/10 efforts. On those attacks, I'm barely hanging on when it's time to slow down.

mvnsnd

I think you need to work on what an interval is. I don't think you are going hard enough during the interval and recovering during the rest period. There should be a definite change in HR from each of those periods. Don't pay any attention to average speed on the trainer, except to use speed as a measure of intensity since most fluid trainers can correlate speed with intensity.

Take a look at the last image on this page: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2010/01/h...ur-garmin.html

You'll see that the rest period is really resting.

tanguy frame

I disable my speed sensor for sufferfest, and only monitor cadence. I get awesome interval workouts that way, and who cares about speed when you're going zero?

hhnngg1

You're then losing perhaps the most valuable part of your data - the power. On a trainer with the same settings used between workout (there is no 'setting' on a KK trainer so it's pretty simple there) , your speed is proportional to power (curvilinear relatinoship, not linear.) Basically, the higher your rear wheel speed on a trainer, the higher your power.

Monitoring your cadence would work - but only if you use the same fixed gear ratio the whole ride, and if you're doing your intervals correctly, you should be going hard enough that you have to gear up on the hard ones and gear down on the recovery portions.

The speed on the trainer doesn't translate directly to road speed, but it's the single most valuable number you can have for your workouts. If your speed starts dropping a lot at the latter half of the workout, you overcooked the first half. If your interval speed goes up throughout the season on the trainer, you're making real progress on the bike.

This 'going zero' crap is the biggest load of misinformation out there (It drives me nuts that someone invariably says this 'you're going zero mph so ignore speed' stuff on every trainer thread without understanding the value of the speed on the trainer.) You're not trying to measure your moving velocity on a trainer (duh), but rather trying to get an objective measure of your power output, and the rear wheel speed is the answer if you don't have a powermeter.

david58

Power is great, and I am sure that approach is terrific for those that are trying to train for racing. But for me, I find Sufferfest and their "effort scale" to be just fine - I can kick my ass just fine without the power meter. And I think for most of the folks on this forum, a power meter isn't necessary to get a good workout that will improve your cycling performance.

roadrider63

I did my first sufferfest "Angels" the other night as well. My opinion after my workout is that it may take a couple of times to find the correct effort level for the intervals. Having never done much in the line of structured workouts I found at the end that I think I should have gone harder during the climb intervals.

That being said, I still felt that I got a good workout and really enjoyed the sufferfest...as much as you can enjoy indoor training. I haven't looked at my Garmin data yet.

I'm just hoping that if I continue with these training sessions through the winter and add some other sufferfest videos to my collection that I can come out next spring/summer fitter and stronger than I normally do. There is a group I've been invited to ride with so I'm thinking I need to turn it up a notch so I can hang on next spring....maybe even drag there butts along..lol.

MrTuner1970

That's my sense also. Except I probably go too hard at the beginning of the interval, and end up with not enough energy toward the end of the interval. Still trying to get a good sense of perceived effort.

Because of the Sufferfest videos, I now know I have not been truly suffering out on the road. I have a great base of endurance and sub-lactate threshold, but need to work a lot in the anaerobic zones.

Heck, last night couldn't get my cadence sensor working. Did the workout anyway...no speed, no cadence. Only HR. Still a great workout.

roadrider63

I'm going to try to guage efforts based on gearing/cadence choices for certain levels...if that makes sense. I know for a 10/10 I need to really go hard but I want to try to keep my cadence at least in the mid to upper 80's. Not sure if this is the correct thing to do or not. I try to keep it there most of the time in general unless they are calling for a much lower/higher cadence. I generally hover around the upper 80's low 90's on most road rides.

Might give it a go again tonight then try to squeeze in a little easy road ride tomorrow before we have to be anywhere. Supposed to reach about 40 tomorrow here in Ohio...plenty warm for a ride.

By the way, hope Santa brings everyone their favorite cycling gear. I think he's getting me a new saddle.

hhnngg1

Yup, I agree. PM not necessary for awesome improvement.

Still, it's always good to get objective data on your effort, and it's pretty easy to do with trainer speed subbing for power.

Herbie53

The video is just motivation to do the workout. If I remember correctly it's a warm up, 10 minutes of Tempo / LT over under and then 3x8 at LT/VO2 max and a cool down that lasts a bit over an hour total.

Without a PM you really cannot compare the two.

david58

Pretty much what I do - I can use the speed on my computer to gage the relative output/effort. The power curve that compares speed to watts with the Kurt system is pretty nice, at least you can get an idea over the hour. And no matter what, it beats simply not riding because of the weather.

hhnngg1

Even before I started using power testing to base training zones, I found the objective power (speed on a trainer) data very useful to review. I had no idea how much I was overkilling the early intervals and decelerating at the end over an hour until I really looked at the downloaded data - way overcooking the first few intervals, or first 10 minutes of a long ride. Turns out I was doing this outdoors too. My pacing has improved a lot for my workouts as a result of the power/speed data.

fstshrk

OP, what trainer are you using?

david58

I'm sure that the power meter is the ultimate (today) tool for quantitative data. Next winter, I hope to upgrade to add a Kurt powermeter to my trainer. But until then, Sufferfest and my trainer and my Cateye should still result in a stronger rider coming out than would otherwise have emerged from the winter.