italktocats

not in london tho

agmetal

Speaking as someone who's had a collision with a car at that intersection: I was left-crossed there a year ago (to the day, actually - Sept. 12, 2014), when I was riding in the bike lane to the right of traffic as depicted in this picture:



I was coming off the bridge at a pretty good speed (easily 20+), and had a green light, with no reason to slow or stop. An MBTA bus driver apparently ceded their (and by extension, my) right of way to the driver of an SUV that was turning left from the other direction and across my path. They gunned it and appeared in front of me suddenly, giving me no chance of avoiding the collision with their front quarter panel and going up onto the hood. I was lucky enough to walk away from the incident with only superficial injuries (and a totaled bike), but I noticed this change in the lane markings not long afterward:

vol

In that case, there should be two separate traffic signal lights, one for vehicles and one for bikes, so the bikes can have green light when vehicles going the same direction and vehicles on the cross road both have red (and no right turn allowed on red). But that would be too complex.

Mos6502

Reminded me of this video.

(in case it doesn't make sense, they're in england, so the biker was on the right side of the road and trucker was not).

Chris516

While I have not had trouble with trucks turning into me. Like in this video. I have encountered trucks turning into my path, thinking they could go in front of me. While with cars, they would wait.

vol

In case someone would like to know, the very accident:

CliffordK

I was sure I had seen the video earlier:

A longer discussion of the accident here:

https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-...t-s-death.html

It was a very unfortunate chain of events that led the cyclist to end up under the truck and to get killed.

While the truck undoubtedly passed the cyclist going over the bridge, the traffic lights allowed Anita Kurmann to catch the truck and shadow the truck, a very dangerous place to ride.

Then as the truck swung left, the turn should have been apparent, but it somehow didn't register with Anita for one reason or another.

I do think there are some things that can be done to get better signal lights on trucks, although many do have quite a few flashers. Beeps? It still has to register with those around them. And, too many beeps become ignored.

Other road users must realize the extent in which the trailer wheels don't follow the cab wheels, and how one must find a path to quickly escape the trailer's path. Right turn with the truck? Stop way short if one sees a truck turning.

It does appear as if there has been some effort by the city to make that intersection safer.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3507...7i13312!8i6656

vol

I missed the earlier thread. Just happened to see the video.

I think if she had read the many posts here about the danger of trucks at intersections she'd be more vigilant and watch for the faintest sign that the truck might make a turn, or even not ride alongside the truck.

CliffordK

Yeah...

Of course, if the truck driver had been reading bike forums, he might have slowed down a bit.

Watching the clip again, just before the cyclist disappears out of view behind the cab, it looks like she came to a track stand. It would have been fine had she been next to a car, but not a turning truck. And, by the time she would have realized her error, it was too late.

Digger Goreman

Looked at the vid: no accident... degree of murder the only question....

CliffordK

There was no intent. Simply inattention on the part of both the cyclist and the driver.

The driver's CDL should have been immediately and permanently revoked.

"Lost Wages" Lawsuit for a surgeon?

Digger Goreman

No bone to pick with you, CliffordK, as I am sure a corporatized court will say the same.... When does Overtly Gross negligence ('I see the bicycle in the bicycle lane, but I WILL make this turn ahead of her in willful violation of the law') become intent?

CliffordK

Unfortunately we only see a couple of snippets of video.
The truck likely passed the cyclist back on the bridge somewhere, and largely forgot about her.
Then as the truck was stopped at the traffic light, the cyclist mostly caught up with the truck, then started shadowing the truck in the blind spot.

From the point the traffic started moving again, the cyclist could have been completely invisible to the truck.

If the driver had been driving a pickup, the cyclist stopped short, and a pickup would have made the turn. Unfortunately the truck trailer doesn't track behind the cab (which the CDL drivers know, and other road users should also know).

For the most part, getting cyclists into a bike lane to the right of the road is a good thing. But, one has to be aware of precisely this type of interaction, with vehicles making right hand turns across the bike lane.

GamblerGORD53

HOW the hell can anybody watch this and conclude that R on red is a BAD thing??? WTF
How is it possible to get run over when you are in a bike lane and NOT moving??
And for the clueless wanting to ride here ... pick a car going straight and ride BESIDE it.

79pmooney

This incident is exactly what my best friend's dad told us when were 12 years old. That if we ever saw the side of a right turning truck in front of us we would die. I've seen that truck side once.

You might say "but you lived". Yes. But I had an angel. Literally. A woman in the passenger seat who saw me and screamed. The truck straightened out and I rode past it between it and the road edge. Later that year, two Portland cyclists were killed by right turning trucks, a college student who assumed the truck beside her at the light was going straight and an experienced bicycle mechanic coming down a hill where many trucks take a very sharp right turn to go to an industrial section of Portland.

Yes, we can say that these drivers are being negligent. I try to imagine driving a large truck/semi-trailer in a city and alI I would have to be sizing up to take a 90 degree turn. Number one thing is that I have to pull into the adjacent lane to start the turn, That would have my full attention. That right hand mirror gets a glance or two or three, but not the steady look you need to assess the presence or progress of a bicycle.

I am sure there are drivers with the abilities to do all these looks and always get it right. Just like there are the Michael Jordons, Barry Sanders, Bobby Orrs of the sports world. But trusting my life to the assumption that the truck drivers out there have that gift? I do my best to not.

Ben

bpcyclist

I am trying to be more creative and decided this morning to ride out to this gorge we have near my town. I left early, as always, and took the long but scenic way out. After the sun rose (sort of, it's Western Oregon in December...), I finished the out portion and turned around for the back. Because I am looking for new places to ride, I decided to take the route suggested by RWGPS back home. It's much shorter, but involves a long stretch on one of the busiest streets in town. There is a bike lane, not protected, the entire way into the more central part of town, where that bike lane ends. I peeled off here to a more bike-friendly street to make it home. It was a nice ride. Kind of.

That said, I was faced repeatedly with a bike lane that suddenly ended at a major intersection and was replaced with a vehicle right-hand turn lane. Virtually all of these intersections, let's say there were ten this morning, had no bike lane between the right-hand non-turn lane and the right-hand turn lane. No box. No place to go. Major, major street with massive traffic, even on Christmas morning, a lot of cars. Where am I supposed to go?

Interestingly, several of these lanes--but not all-- did have bike lane markings before the right turn markings, indicating that a cyclist should stay in the right-hand (turn) lane. Personally, I hate this idea, for all the reasons mentioned above. Everybody is turning right except me! No way in heck am I getting in that lane and dealing with buses/trucks/cars, trying to turn right and putting my safety in their hands. So, I took the right-hand, not turning lane, just like I was a car. I accelerated and clipped in as fast as I could, and then quickly got back into the reappearing bike lane on the opposite side of the intersection. Not sure if I did what I was supposed to do, but it seemed the safest approach.

Personally, I find these intersections to be cycling catastrophes that just haven't happened yet. I cannot believe on one of Portland's busiest streets with all this alleged bike-friendliness here, that we don't have a better solution to this. I will certainly not be riding that street again. Whew.

79pmooney

bpcyclist, I see that all the time riding here. (And driving.) Designing streets to be user friendly isn't what Portland/Metro traffic engineers are paid to do (apparently).

Oregon law says we are to use the bike paths when available. Oregon law also says we are to ride as far to the right as "practicable". Often, in my judgement, that is to the left of the bike lane stripe (which is wide and traffic hazard dangerous/slippery in the prevailing Portland damp).

I learned long ago to alter my course a touch to the left very early to get around parked cars with potentially opening doors and other right hand side hazard. Yes, this can impede drivers a little more, but it is clear to everybody what I am doing, (Good truck drivers appreciate this. I make keeping their clean driving record intact easy.) In Portland, I do the same with bike lanes where I know it is ending and at times when I do not know but the precedence has been set.

To ridie and drive properly in Portland, use proper hindsight. In other words, have your route memorized before you attempt to ride/drive it. (Driving - what lane do I belong in? I may know where I want to go and where the exit is but I need that hindsight to know which lane will allow me to take it.)

Ben

Jim from Boston

Stay away from turning trucks and busses

I was surprised to read this resurrected zombie thread, which was already long in 2015. That accident in the OP happened about one block from our condo in Kenmore Square.

I recently posted to this A&S thread,"Tricyclist Killed in Portland Suburb":

livedarklions

Not sure what your point is here, but there's a world of difference between having a video that actually shows what can happen, and debating fault based on sketchy newspaper accounts. I'm feeling rather misrepresented by your quoting of me in the context of this thread.

Jim from Boston

"My point is...and I do have one..." You are correct that in 2015 a video of the accident was posted;duly noted and the quotes I used deleted within about a half hour after the original.

However they remain (IMO in context) in the previous post I cited, "Tricyclist Killed in Portland Suburb."

BTWFWIW a few days ago I posted about my use of quotes as citations:↓↓↓↓

Jim from Boston

^^^^

Furthermore I have posted to this thread: “As a Bike Commuter - What kind of video content would you want to see? “

ironwood

It has been four and a half years since this accident. The DA never pressed charges against the truck driver. There is a new DA in Sufflok County; I wonder whether she'll be any better.


This accident has not been forgotten, and bike advocacy groups are demanding more action to protect cyclists. Finally the hands free driving bill has been passed. Maybe it will be enforced.


I think more cyclists and pedestrians are aware of the dangers of long vehicles, not only truck and buses but the Duck Boats, WWII amphibious assault vehicles that carry tourists, and victorious sports teams; Some one was injured or killed a couple of years ago by one.


There has been some talk of requiring long trucks to have fences to keep pedestrians or cyclists from being dragged under and crushed by the wheels. Most long trucks in Europe have them. I don't know if a city or state can ennact such a requirement that applies to out of state trucks. The truck in the Anita Korman incident was from New Jersey or Pennsylvania , I believe, and he was lost in the city..

Digger Goreman

And, to my mind, "DA" might as well stand for "Disgusting Anal (Orifice)"....

Michael Moore (whether you like him, or not) said/wrote it best when he wished that the very same pain inflicted on others would return in exactly the same package to those inflicting that pain. The driver, and most certainly the DA. Had it happened to the DA's special other, the driver would be doing hard time....

rydabent

The fact remains a 200 pound bike and man should NOT assume the right of way, even tho he does have it. 200 pounds will always lose against a 3500 pound car or a 15000 pound truck or bus.

ALWAYS let the have their way, and stay alive. They may be in the wrong, but you stay alive.

Jim from Boston

Stay away from turning trucks and busses

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim from Boston

I was surprised to read this resurrected zombie thread, which was already long in 2015. That accident in the OP happened about one block from our condo in Kenmore Square

Quote:

Originally Posted by rydabent

The fact remains a 200 pound bike and man should NOT assume the right of way, even tho he does have it. 200 pounds will always lose against a 3500 pound car or a 15000 pound truck or bus.

ALWAYS let the have their way, and stay alive. They may be in the wrong, but you stay alive.

Hi @rydabent,

FYA, just yesterday I posted to this other A&S thread, somewhat as an epilogue to this current thread: I'm not disparaging recumbent trikes, but I am skeptical about their visibility. My otherwise one direct experience was:↓↓↓↓