Morphio

Hi there, I’m struggling with sizing on the Hoy Fiorenzuola, and I noticed Carleton made a fair few comments on sizing in relation to it here https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycl...kes-small.html

Based on this chart I should be on a L HOY Fiorenzuola .001 Track Bike - HOY Bikes | Developed by Sir Chris Hoy
Based on this chart I’m on the edge of XL https://images.evanscycles.com/produc...etry-chart.pdf

I sat on them both briefly in the shop, and to be honest I think the XL felt better, but was just wearing normal clothes and I don’t have much track time so I’m probably not the best judge.

I know my road set up, but to be honest I don’t how much that should vary for a track bike. Given that there’s so much useful advice on here I've been reading through I thought you guys might have some opinions before I go again tomorrow in cycling kit.

Height 185 cm / 6 feet 1 in
Inseam 89.1 com / 35 in
Flexibility isn’t the best.

Road setup:
Canyon L (58)
Frame stack 579, reach 395
Handlebar stack 664, reach 483

Any opinions would be very welcome, thanks!

carleton

Did you take pics of yourself on the bikes? It's hard to do with just numbers. Pics can reveal a lot more, even if you just look at them yourself can compare yourself to other riders.

Those Canyons seem to have really long head tubes which seems to really shorten the reach value. They seem to be 4-5cm longer than the equivalent Hoy frame.

Personally, whenever I've seen people on ill-fitting frames, it seems like 9 out of 10 of them are on frames that are too small for them rather than too big. I'm not saying that's what's happening with you. But that's what I've experienced personally. Even my personal bikes have been too small over the years.

It seems that newbies pick a frame that is comfortable in the bike shop or one that is setup like their road bike (that is designed to be comfortable for hours). But most track races only last a few minutes.

My gut says that if you are on the fence between the L and XL, go for the XL. But, if you have a chance to go back to the shop, hop on both sizes and get into a race tuck and have the sales associate take a photo of you on both and then compare that to photos of others.

Morphio

Thanks Carleton, great advice so I went in with kit, shoes and pedals and took some photos:

Large:


Extra Large:


The XL felt better. Didn't feel too long, although the bars may be a bit low but I can flip the stem and will probably replace the 38 bars with something a bit wider and possibly less drop.
Presumably the saddle-bar drop for a given saddle height will be less extreme on the XL
The XL cranks are 170 which is probably a better bet given I use 175 on the road
Both bikes have 130 stems - I figure better to shorten the XL stem than lengthen the L.

With that in mind I've taken the XL, but if you think I've got it wrong, I can swap it for the L next week.

Thanks for the help and advice!

carleton

XL for sure!

Also, consider using the 38s or even narrower. I'm currently using 34cm bars. you will get used to them. Narrow bars feel weird to roadies at first, but you'll learn the benefits when you ride track more.

Also keep the 130mm stem.

You look pretty good as is.



Remember, it WILL feel different than a road bike. Soon this will feel comfortable.

I'm headed out for a bit. I'll write more later, but XL was the right choice.

Velocirapture

Hmm.. looks a bit long to me. Your back is pretty flat with very little bend in your arms. I'd say a shorter stem, personally, but stick with the XL frame. +1 on the 38cm bars, though. Definitely worth spending some time getting used to them before swapping them out.

Morphio

Great, thanks for the feedback. Good to hear people agree on the XL!
I've flipped the stem but put a 1cm spacer above it to reduce the drop to the bars slightly. Does that look a bit better, or still reckon I should reduce the stem by a cm or two?


I know I'm not quite in the right place on the drops, but first time on rollers for more than a year, on 48x14 with bars 6cm narrower than I'm used to wasn't going well!

Aesthetic of the bike doesn't look as good with the rise, but hey if it rides better:

carleton

Generally speaking, track bike fitting is more aggressive than road bikes, even crit bikes.

On the track aero is important, even in mass start racing. The frame you have will allow you to be comfortable now as well as get long and/or low later as you become more flexible.

These days, 37cm Scattos are the reference bars for track racing. 35cm Scattos and even the 33cm Alpina Sprint bars are common. It's not like on the road where 44cm bars would be normal for a guy your size. On the track, a guy your size would max out at 38cm these days.

It has to do with aero as well as maneuvering. A lot of racing is done shoulder-to-shoulder in closer quarters than road/crit cycling. Wide bars actually become a liability, especially if they are wider than your shoulders. You'd rather have some bump your shoulders at 37mph/60kph than your handlebars!

Road bikes use wide bars for waving the bike when climbing.

"But what about sprinting?" Roadies sprint by standing out of the saddle and waving the bikes back and forth. Trackies sprint by sitting down and holding still. Also, waving your bike back and forth in a sprint in tight quarters will make a mess. This is why track bikes have evolved into using bars that are more narrow than road bikes.

carleton

In this photo it looks like your saddle is tilted downwards. If it is, try to get it level.

On the track, if your saddle is tilted downwards, you'll slide forward and then have to keep scooting backwards to stay on it. This is difficult and annoying to do while on a fixed-gear.

You want your butt to be set so your legs can spin freely and smoothly.

If you are tilting the saddle down so that your hands can reach the bars this may be a sign that you could probably use some work on your flexibility. Modern road bikes have really tall head tubes. Track bikes don't.

Stretching the glutes really helps. You want to be stretched to the point where there is NO tension on your muscles when your knee is at the highest point. This means that you should stretch past that point. Trust me. I'm the most inflexible person you'll ever meet. My heart rate rises about 15-20BPM when I get in the drops on my track bike because my muscles don't get the opportunity relax enough. I have to remember to stretch as part of my training to overcome this.

Minion1

I'd definitely +1 everything Carleton has said, but I have a personal bias towards riding a bike with a longer top tube and a shorter stem than going down a size and whacking a longer stem on. The handling and weight distribution, IMHO is better with this set up, and you can make a big bike, handle really well.

On a related note, to the guys who ride narrow bars, how much different is the reach between your road and track set ups? My road bike has a 57 top tube, 110 stem, with 40cm bars, and track is 57 tt, 120mm stem, with 38mm bars - as you get narrower bars, do you extend your reach at the same time? I'm super comfy on the track bike, but thought I may need a longer stem - am I assuming incorrectly? The reach is about the same on the 2 bikes given the difference in STA.

Minion1

Oh and Morphio, definitely give the 38s a chance, I love mine. Don't really notice too much of a difference between 44 and 40cm bars, but dropping down to the 38s made a big (positive) difference to my position. I don't have a powermeter, so this is completely subjective, but they are great when you get on the track.

700wheel

You could try rotating your bars down a little - personally I like my bars to be perpendicular to my arms (no bending at the wrist). You also might want to recheck your position while looking ahead.

carleton

Morphio,

If you want to look into bars that aren't so deep, consider the Nitto B125. They are "short and shallow". They have similar reach and drop as the popular 3T Scatto, but at a fraction of the price. You can probably find these at a local shop that caters to the track or fixie scene.

Aluminum or steel will suit you just fine.

They only come in 25.4 bar clamp sizes. So, you'll either need to use shims (which will hold just fine) or find a 25.4 stem.

They should start at around 50 pounds sterling for steel and go up to 70 for aluminum alloy (both are very strong) and the aluminum variant is very light.

Narrow road bars will due, as well. Assuming that you won't participate in events that require a standing (or near standing) start like kilo, keirin, match sprinting, etc... Road bars have a very wide "top" which impedes the forearms during standing starts and will kind of make it awkward to do them. This is why track bars immediately slope downward as the bar moves away from the stem. If you are doing a normal new racer's race program, you'll likely do a bit of everything.

If you plan on doing strictly mass start racing (points, scratch, madison, etc...) then road bars will be fine (just pick a narrow set 40cm or less). Road pars are preferred for Madison for the hand-hold area up top during exchanges.

happybday29475

Carleton thanks for this post.

My new Fuji will show up in the next couple of days with 37cm Scattos. Since I ride with 44's on the road, I was thinking I would have to get rid of the Scattos. I'm sure they'll feel dinky, but I'll see if I can ride into them...

Morphio

Thanks, lots of great advice.
The saddle wasn't *quite* as bad as it looked in that picture, but have levelled it out.
I'm away travelling with work now until Thursday but will take the comments onboard and try and tweak the position to suit when I get back, and try the narrow bars.

Many thanks!

carleton

DO NOT sell the Scattos! Trust me. They are great bars. Even if you don't use them immediately, you'll want to try them later in your track career and you'll say, "Dang! I should have kept those..."

They are very popular for a reason, even at the world-class level. More local/regional folks would have them if they didn't cost $400USD / 275 Pounds.

brawlo

My road bike has a reach of 419mm and I run a 130mm stem. My track bike has a reach of around 450mm and I run a 140mm stem with Scattos on it and I'm going to be looking at a frame with even more reach in the near future. I am more sprint orientated though.

I run 44s on the road with 37 Scattos on the track. I have no problems at all with the different widths. When you start riding them, do a lot of standing and seated starts and accelerations from low speed. The narrower bars require a lot more small coordinating muscle strength in the shoulders and core. After a few weeks you will be fine with them and wonder how you could have gone for anything else.

Quinn8it

It's more likely that you'll end up ditching the 44's on your road bike..

carleton

Yup. When I went narrow on my track bike in 2011, I also did on my road bike. I found some 40cm Zipp bars for my road bike and loved them.

Quinn8it

My "Crit Bike" which is the only road ride I have these days has 35's... Little wide, but I adjust

carleton

Hahahaha!

For those looking for narrow road bars, look for "kid's" or "women's" handlebars.

dunderhi

I'll offer up a slightly different perspective on bike fit, from the "train how you race school of thought." I like to make my track bike and road bike a close as possible. So after a year of riding mismatched bikes, I found a track bike with geometry/fit very similar to my road bike. I went with 40cm track bars and downsized my road bars to 42cm(from 46). My track bike feels like it fits like a glove - the position was 100% natural from day one. For my pursuit bike, I bought a time trial bike with the same geometry and matching clip-ons, so that I can work on my pursuiting on the road. While training on either road bike, I make an effort not to coast, but I must admit to shifting since I'm not climbing 13% grades in a 90" gear.

Is my track position sub-optimal? Probably. Is my road position sub-optimal? Probably. Do I think it works for me? Sure do.

Velocirapture

I agree with you here, @dunderhi. I'm a lot more comfortable on both bikes since setting them up the same (although granted, i have a 37cm bar on my road bike, and a 33 on my track bike - but i'm ok with that).
Probably best to set up your fit for whatever your focus is. get that bike dialed in, and then the other bikes as similar as possible within the constraints of the discipline.

Minion1

QFT. I'm on the lookout for 40cm pro vibe bars now.

Morphio

Just a quick update to say thanks for the help. Bike got it's first track time on Saturday and handled like a dream

For those that are interested in getting one of the Hoy bikes, I'm generally very happy with it and it handles well (although I only have limited track experience on a couple of rentals) but there are a few things worth mentioning:

• Drop outs aren't short, but definitely not as long as on some bikes I've seen. Chain as fitted had to be split to get wheel in and out when running 48x18 to get to the velodrome. Racked at the velodrome now, so shouldn't be a regular problem. Haven't yet tried it with any really small gearing to see how much range there is - a bit of room to go back with a 48x13 but didn't have a 46 or 47 to test it with.
• Sprocket that shipped with it is a shiny unbranded one, not DA 7600 as listed
• Seatpost head clamp had a threaded hole that could be at best described as "oval". Stripped the bolt out when switching saddles which meant a dash around LBSs to find a zero setback post before taking it to the track.
• Not a surprise, but I'll be swapping the tyres out for something else. Dual compound so they'd never be allowed on the indoor velodromes over here.

But considering I got the bike for £635 I can live with those.

carleton

48/18 is too low for proper track use. Actually that is a low street fixie gear ratio.

You should use 48/16 for warmups. You shouldn't use an 18t cog for anything. You'll spin like a hamster on a hamster wheel all day