New Dura Ace R9200 announcement on GCN
#51
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The more I think about it, the less I can believe 12s Ultegra or even DA will be/stay electronic only. Its completely contrary to what Shimano is doing in mtb groups and will leave a giant hole between 105 mech and ultegra DI2. Usually Shimano has options for every price point. That is assuming R8000 is not continuing parallel to R8100 DI2.
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If there was no market for mechanical shifting, Shimano would have killed it off completely in 105 and Tiagra, which I am pretty sure won’t happen for a long time. That they dropped two tiers at once should be a clear indicator about where they think the market is and where it is headed, and how they see themselves going forward.
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If it was all about choices, I'd be able to choose to buy 6800, or Sora DI. Shimano isn't interested in giving me choices, it is interested is selling what can be sold in a balance of production/supply cost, volume, and cost, to maximize profit.
In any case .... it's just BF. Nothing we say or do here matters all that much.
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It was just funny that you seemed to blame people for not consuming enough new products as the reason for us being where we are.
Shimano makes a good enough product to last for years and years without replacing the product or bike its attached to, then you blame people for not purchasing enough bikes in recent years that are rim brake or mechanical shifting.
The mild scolding was what I found funny(and odd). Based on this thread, others interpreted your post in a similar manner too.
Shimano makes a good enough product to last for years and years without replacing the product or bike its attached to, then you blame people for not purchasing enough bikes in recent years that are rim brake or mechanical shifting.
The mild scolding was what I found funny(and odd). Based on this thread, others interpreted your post in a similar manner too.
I didn't think he was blaming people ... I thought he was saying more, "If you want a seat at the table, when such decisions are being made, buy it, like I did."
Again .... I don't take any of this too seriously. Maybe I should use a lot more laughing emojis.
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Ummm .... yeah capitalism is Not in any way about choices .... it is about using capital to make more capital. The choices are made by the person with capital, who chooses what products to offer at what price point t maximize profit.
If it was all about choices, I'd be able to choose to buy 6800, or Sora DI. Shimano isn't interested in giving me choices, it is interested is selling what can be sold in a balance of production/supply cost, volume, and cost, to maximize profit.
In any case .... it's just BF. Nothing we say or do here matters all that much.
If it was all about choices, I'd be able to choose to buy 6800, or Sora DI. Shimano isn't interested in giving me choices, it is interested is selling what can be sold in a balance of production/supply cost, volume, and cost, to maximize profit.
In any case .... it's just BF. Nothing we say or do here matters all that much.
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Agreed...but electric may migrate (eventually) to Tiagra and 105 alongside mechanical options. Purely conjecture, but in 3-4 years, not an unreasonable possibility, either.
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Ummm .... yeah capitalism is Not in any way about choices .... it is about using capital to make more capital. The choices are made by the person with capital, who chooses what products to offer at what price point t maximize profit.
If it was all about choices, I'd be able to choose to buy 6800, or Sora DI. Shimano isn't interested in giving me choices, it is interested is selling what can be sold in a balance of production/supply cost, volume, and cost, to maximize profit.
In any case .... it's just BF. Nothing we say or do here matters all that much.
If it was all about choices, I'd be able to choose to buy 6800, or Sora DI. Shimano isn't interested in giving me choices, it is interested is selling what can be sold in a balance of production/supply cost, volume, and cost, to maximize profit.
In any case .... it's just BF. Nothing we say or do here matters all that much.
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Perhaps. No removable memory card ability, or their own proprietary charging cord, or non user-replaceable batteries, or taking until generation 7 to make the phone water resistant. Plenty of things consumers would have preferred but sometimes the marketing promised pluses outweigh the negatives.
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Perhaps. No removable memory card ability, or their own proprietary charging cord, or non user-replaceable batteries, or taking until generation 7 to make the phone water resistant. Plenty of things consumers would have preferred but sometimes the marketing promised pluses outweigh the negatives.
Just musing now....in the past Shimano's technological development strategy depended on trickle down, I'm baffled as to how this will impact subsequent generations of 105 and Tiagra. Maybe the magic of Shimano shifting was never in the actual mechanical operation of their drivetrains (save the groundbreaking index shifting when they introduced it). Maybe it isn how the chain and cogs interface. If that is so, the new HG+ is a bigger deal than the electronic shifting or 12 cogs vice 11 now. And, once that tech tickles down, 105 and Tiagra get even smoother than they already are, get quieter, and probably get a touch lighter.
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No laptop screen that opens more than 120 degrees, either.
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The more I think about it, the less I can believe 12s Ultegra or even DA will be/stay electronic only. Its completely contrary to what Shimano is doing in mtb groups and will leave a giant hole between 105 mech and ultegra DI2. Usually Shimano has options for every price point. That is assuming R8000 is not continuing parallel to R8100 DI2.
Either way I'm sure the accountants have run the numbers and decided what is the most profitable route.
Maybe Shimano will continue mechanical Dura Ace or Ultegra groupsets into the future, but just in 11-speed guise? Who knows...
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The bike market changes .... it has changed markedly several times in my lifetime. What Shimano has been doing successfully since somewhere in the '90s might not be the best course in the 2020s. As people say, they will crunch the numbers, make their predictions, and sell whatever they think will make them the most money over whatever time frame.
Who knows how Covid has changed their plans? Pretty sure bike sales are down due to lack of inventory, and pretty sure manufacturing hasn't ramped up yet .... is Shimano still waiting on all payment for all those tens of thousands of low-end group sets they sell to big box store bike makers in China? Apparently it might be hard to get the new 12-speed stuff .... will that slow introduction of other updates? Obviously the Choices we make as consumers aren't driving this, as we are not yet allowed to choose to buy the stuff .....
Whatever. I doubt I will ever ride a 12-speed or a DI-equipped bike. Not even sure I will ever buy another bike---I already have enough bikes that can perform way better than I can, and buying the latest Greatest won't change how much of that potential is wasted by me.
It sure is fun to kick stuff around on BF after a pleasant rain ride, though.
Who knows how Covid has changed their plans? Pretty sure bike sales are down due to lack of inventory, and pretty sure manufacturing hasn't ramped up yet .... is Shimano still waiting on all payment for all those tens of thousands of low-end group sets they sell to big box store bike makers in China? Apparently it might be hard to get the new 12-speed stuff .... will that slow introduction of other updates? Obviously the Choices we make as consumers aren't driving this, as we are not yet allowed to choose to buy the stuff .....
Whatever. I doubt I will ever ride a 12-speed or a DI-equipped bike. Not even sure I will ever buy another bike---I already have enough bikes that can perform way better than I can, and buying the latest Greatest won't change how much of that potential is wasted by me.
It sure is fun to kick stuff around on BF after a pleasant rain ride, though.
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I bet I’ll be replacing my mechanical rim brake 11 speed Dura Ace groupset in 10 years with 11 speed Claris.
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In terms of rear shifting, the generation containing 7800 was a high point and there was a definite step back with the next generation, when they went under the bar tape - a little higher effort, a little more vague in feel, to me. I think that it's gotten better and better since, though. IME, which started with 5600, FD performance is way better, but I never played with 10sp DA.
#68
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In terms of rear shifting, the generation containing 7800 was a high point and there was a definite step back with the next generation, when they went under the bar tape - a little higher effort, a little more vague in feel, to me. I think that it's gotten better and better since, though. IME, which started with 5600, FD performance is way better, but I never played with 10sp DA.
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It is definitely about choices. Choosing to buy something sends a message, while being content with what you have because it meets all of your needs also sends a message in the sense that no message of preference is being registered. I am ONLY talking abut how we, as consumers, impact these firms. As you say their goal is to take capital and make more of it, how do you think they decide to do it? Easy answer, through our choices, more specifically he ones they can measure. When we choose to be content with what we have (which is just fine), we are not making a choice they can measure. But, when we choose to buy mechanical over electronic, or rim over disc, they can measure that. That is what I am getting at. So when people bemoan the shift to all electric, or a near total shift to disc over rim, I am here to remind us all that the isn't happen because it a capricious decision, it is driven by what was bought by those who chose to buy.
Now there is a tangible difference between Ultegra and 105 moving forward.
It's either that obvious and very real change, or its consumers speaking with their wallets, even though mechanical shifting bikes have been bought in droves over the last few years.
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Excellent points, I do not disagree. Perhaps a better way to look at it mstateglfr is that (a) Shimano has once again made a clear differentiation between Ultegra and 105, and moved Ultegra back closer to DA as it was not even 10 years ago, and (b) yes, lot os mechanical groups have been bought, in fact the majority of bikes being sold with Shimano have mechanical groups on them, but they are int he price range that Shimano is targeting with the new DA and Ultegra electronic shifting groups.
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Or one year old frames. Damn those lowly peons. When they get some experience like us they'll realize electronic shifting and disc brakes makes you faster. And most importantly, no one will be checking out their bikes in the parking lot before the group ride. I spend thousands for that alone and I buy a new bike every 12 months.
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Excellent points, I do not disagree. Perhaps a better way to look at it mstateglfr is that (a) Shimano has once again made a clear differentiation between Ultegra and 105, and moved Ultegra back closer to DA as it was not even 10 years ago, and (b) yes, lot os mechanical groups have been bought, in fact the majority of bikes being sold with Shimano have mechanical groups on them, but they are int he price range that Shimano is targeting with the new DA and Ultegra electronic shifting groups.
#73
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Electronics are pretty simple compared to what's inside a mechanical shifter. Expect an electric 105 at the current sales point.
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Perhaps one reason is that mountain bikers often adopt a 1x setup and thus can't justify the price difference to just shift the rear mech? As a roadie with a 2x Ultegra Di2 setup, the Di2 "synchro shift mode" is lovely and a HUGE advantage (to me) over mechanical group sets. I always hated shifting a mechanical group set from the large to small chain ring (and vice-versa) because of the huge jump in gear ratios and a lot of fiddling around. Di2 solves that problem so I can just focus on riding and not shifting.
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If you bought a frame a year ago with rim brakes and the inability to internally route/house an electronic groupset, then you went out of your way to buy out-of-(modern)-spec and that's all on you.