roadie276

TLDR: Thinking of upgrading from a 2013 Trek Madone 5.2 to a new Trek or Specialized, for more aero wheels, disc brakes, and e-shifting. Thoughts?

I suspect I probably just need to go spend time my local bike shop, but I'll ask here in case people have any thoughts/experiences to contribute. After a number of years on my current bike (a 2013 Trek Madone 5.2, with Dura Ace C24 wheels and a Quarq power meter), I am contemplating an upgrade. I most typically do frequent short to medium length rides, and enjoy trying to push to get the occasional segment or my own PR for a ride (and I do the occasional short and casual time trial). I've been thinking of an upgrade in part because I wouldn't mind getting some deeper/more aero wheels, but I don't want to invest heavily in rim-brake versions of them now that disc brakes and wheels are so common and growing. Additionally, I have disc brakes on my commuter bike, and like them well enough that they'd be part of the appeal of upgrading (thinking of wheels, disc brakes, and electronic shifting as the impetus for the upgrade, largely). New road bike prices seems to have skyrocketed in the past few years, and the pandemic and global supply chain issues obviously aren't helping. So if it's not practical to pull off an upgrade now, I'll wait a bit.
I've been eyeing the new Trek Madone and Emonda, as well as the 2021 Specialized Tarmac SLR. The last one is particularly interesting, as I like the idea of the Roval Rapid CL / CLX wheels being relatively deep, but not too finicky in cross winds (I'm in the flattish part of New England, but there are still hills and the occasional 40mph+ descent that I'd prefer not to be blown around on). So if I want those stock and not need to muck with selling brand new wheels, it'd be the Specialized I'd lean towards. Oh, and I'm not the most flexible person, and my fit on my current H2 Madone involved a change to a stem that's raked upward a fair bit; it's possible I may fit better on an endurance geometry bike (though I don't want to big a big $$ upgrade and lose speed, and I've been tempted to do a bike fit to see if I can get bit lower for speed, since that may help aero more than pricey wheels). Anyway, this is long and rambling, but I guess I'm wondering the following things:

- Has anyone ridden a ~10 year old Madone 5.2 and a late generation Madone, Emonda, or especially a Tarmac SLR that can compare them? I'm curious in particular about ride quality/comfort.
- Has anyone ridden the Roval Rapid CL or CLX wheels in cross winds? How do they fare against a climbing wheel like the Dura Ace C24 (which is presumably about as good as it gets for faring crosswinds)? How are they for every day comfort?
- Are there any issues with any of these bikes on a Wahoo Kickr v5? I thought I heard the new Madones, Emondas and possible Domanes didn't fit w/the stock adapters (want to do winter training as well, obviously)
- Is there anything else dumb I'm overlooking? Aside from the fact that upgrading is expensive and not strictly required?

Thanks for any advice in advance.

GlennR

I went from a 2011 Trek Madone 4.3 with Sram Rival to a 2015 Trek Emonda SLR with Sram eTap. The Emonda was 4x as much as the Madone. It's a pure joy to ride, in fact I have over 28,000 miles and it still brings a smile to my face every time i ride it.

If you can afford to make the investment... DO IT.

tempocyclist

I've put 1000's of miles on a set of Roval CL60's. They're perfectly comfortable (tyre choice is probably more a factor here).

Yes, they do catch a crosswind but as long as you're sensible and don't go out when it's blowing a gale, you'll be fine. It's not like you'll get thrown across the road into a ditch. I'm a lightweight so get blown around a bit more.

MinnMan

As you know, this is not the best year to be in the market, but yeah, definitely go for an upgrade.

Is there a particular reason that your focus is restricted to the big 2 brands? There are lots of other choices out there. Surely your local LBSs have some other sporty options (or they will whenever they can restock again).

roadie276

Good question. I've owned a Cannondale before and really disliked the aggressive geometry and rough, feel-everything level of road buzz (it was an aluminum framed R600), so didn't think that brand was a good fit for me. I switched from that to a Trek Madone 4.2 in 2008 and loved the fit and improvement in ride quality, and the Madone 5.2 was an improvement over that as well, and I am probably just trying to stick to what's worked in the past. I've considered some other brands but nothing has really grabbed my attention. I feel like the big brands can be seen as boring/safe/not a great value, but for me I less about how "exciting" the brand is and more about how good the bike itself is. Maybe I have the perception that mainstream brands are less likely to screw up basic/major things, or have some weird quirk or problem that makes it drastically less useful to me, and I don't mind paying a bit of a premium for that. I think I was reading that Giant's equivalent model(s) in this range road a bit harsher, and so was avoiding them as well (I've used tons of Specialized gear and it's generally been great across the board, so that's also a small vote of confidence).

Badger6

Yes. I had a 2014 Madone 5 frame with aluminum rim Bontrager RXL wheels (rim brake) and Di2. In 2019, I bought a 2018 Tarmac SL6 Pro frame, rim brake, swapped everything over to it, except the wheels, which I replaced with DT Swiss ARC1400. Last December, I bought a new SL7. The SL7 is incrementally improved on the SL6 which was a massive improvement over the Madone which itself was a fantastic riding bike.

I have ridden on the Roval CL/CLX, but I don't own them, so my experience is limited to about 4 hours total. But, my ARC1400 rims were 48mm deep, and the rims on my SL7 are the 38mm C38. I don't care what claims manufacturers make about the their wheels in crosswinds. The impacts to a wheel in crosswinds is directly relevant to the sail area. Yes, some deep section wheels fare better than others, but the deeper the wheel the more sensitive it will be to crosswinds.

As for other brands, search, see what you can find, but I'll be honest, from what I've seen in Europe this summer the only brands that seemed to be decently stocked (for COVID times) across the model ranges with a selection of sizes was Specialized and Trek. Not sure how it has gone in the US, but I would not be surprised if the larger brands are doing better on stock than the smaller ones. Shimano and SRAM seem to be taking risk with which OEMs they are preferencing for keeping supplied.

jdemay

I had a 2014 Pinarello with a Ultegra Di2 Groupset, and I did upgrade my wheels to ZIpp 303 in 2015. I had paid 3200€ for my bike back in 2014

I just upgraded for a Madone SLR7 SRAM AXS eTap, for 9500€

I'm not so happy in the end. The new bike feels heavier, it's also a lot noisier, the Disc brakes are probably much much better in the rain, but I don't like to ride in the rain anyway, the disc brakes seem to be a lot more sensitive and prone to technical issues, I have a rattling noise coming from the back wheel and a vibration as well. The Rim brakes in dry conditions felt nicer, and I never had any technical issue with them.

Last the eTap system seems not quite as responsive compared to the Di2, If I had known how it felt, I would have stayed on Shimano Di2 Technology.

From a performance perspective, looking at Strava, I'm doing my standard lunch break course (37kms) in exactly the same amount of time as before, with the same amount of perceived effort (if it's an indication the average speed, and average HR have remained exactly the same).

roadie276

Ok, interesting. How do you like your Zipp 303's? I noticed the difference between the Specialized Tarmac SL7 Pro vs the SL7 Expert appears to be just wheels and the handlebars. And the Expert wheels are like $80 value-oriented wheels. I'm tempted to get the SL7 Expert and upgrade the wheels and keep the cheap ones as spares. If I throw in the handlebars, I could get better wheels and pay less out of the deal.

roadie276

Cool, this is the sort of feedback I was hoping for...thanks. : )

jdemay

I really like my Zipp 303, they look cool, and have proved to be really nice on both flat, and even hilly terrain, the only downside is the braking (Rim) when it's wet. I'm finding the Trek Aerolus 5's to be quite similar actually.

Badger6

More like $400 I'd guess...but your point is not lost.

Also, there are actually 2 levels of Expert. The original has mechanical Ultegra with discs and C38 wheels, the other has Ultegra Di2 with the aluminum DT Swiss rims. Get the Di2...which it seems like you are if you're describing the a lower tier wheel option on spec. If you've had it before you know why, if not, you'll understand why once you have it. Wheels may be-and, I stress "may be" depending on how you source them-more expensive...but, selecting your own wheels may net you a far better option than the OEM. If you desire aero wheels, the Roval wheels are well built, and they use DT Swiss internals. DT Swiss are in my experience much better, especially if you buy wheels with straight pull spokes.

Badger6

Yep. All carbon wheels are sub optimal for braking in the wet. It's what drove me to buy a rim brake road bike. Smashing into the side of a Citroën C1 at 35km/h after the driver turned left because he claimed he couldn't see my 1000 lumen headlight in the rain storm, getting my faced glued back together, and breaking my right hand left the kind of emotional scarring that promptly pushed me to spend 6000€, and I have zero regrets.

roadie276

Yikes...glad you are back up and around. Yeah, I'm sold on disc breaks and carbon fiber wheels being a decent fit for my needs...just trying to figure out which. The Dura Ace C24 wheels I'm on now have been amazing...still perfectly true after thousands of miles and bumps, with zero maint. I'm contemplating waiting to see if Shimano finally introduces proper wider CF wheels with a medium depth. Still like the sound of the Roval Rapide CLX, but not sure if those will be a true ride-everyday sort of wheelset like I'd prefer. There's also new Dura Ace componetry due out probably this year, so that could also make waiting worthwhile.

Badger6

Also, I meant to say “disc brake,” not rim brake.

Have you considered the C38? It’s 38mm deep, handles a bit better than a deeper wheel in crosswinds, is mounted on hubs based on the DT Swiss 350 internals, and they are a bit less expensive.

Iride01 

If you don't know what your Madone isn't doing for you or allowing you to achieve then looking for a new bike maybe isn't what you need.

roadie276

Sure, there's no question about *need*; my existing bike would continue to work for years, I'm sure. It's more that I *want* to get some more aero wheels, and nowadays the best option for those are cf wheels with disc brakes, imho. So my old bike isn't letting me get the new wheels I want, and if I'm spending a bunch of $$ to upgrade, I'm considering trying out e-shifting (which has other benefits in having fewer/thinner cables to catch air). And if I'm honest, I'll admit that buying new kit is exciting and gets me out there and biking more, which while maybe dumb, is an effective way to stay motivated and engaged.

Incidentally, it occurs to me that all these disc wheel weights don't include the rotor and bolts, while rim brakes include the equivalent (rim braking surfaces). Does anyone know how much these extra bits end up adding to the effective weight of disc wheels? I want to compare apples to apples. The Dura Ace C24's clinchers I have are specced at around 1400g. I was drooling over the Roval CLX Rapide's since they are much deeper, but also supposedly weigh in at 1400g. But if that excludes like 350g of rotor and mounting hardware, then suddenly they don't look so awe inspiring. Anyway, I'm aware that deep diving into things so much when if I'm lucky I'll get like 5-10w saved on my measely 21mph average, short TT is arguably a waste of time. Part of the fun, I suppose. : )

Badger6

If I am not mistaken, the wheels you are specifically mentioning use Shimano Centerlock mounting interface. The rotor side of the hub has a spline that the brake rotor is slipped onto that is then fixed with a locking collar that uses a cassette lockring tool to fix (12mm TA) or a 16-tooth BB tool to fix (15mm and larger TA). A 160mm SM-RT800 rotor weighs 128g, with lock ring. The 140mm is 108g. Some road bikes use 160 front and back, some use 160/140 F/R, and some use only 140.

Iride01 

I'm not against you buying something new just for satisfying your urge for new. But it makes it sort of hard to recommend a bike for you if there isn't something about your current bike that you need or want to be different.

My previous bikes had me in a slightly upright position. I couldn't get low on them due to stack and the fact they were probably oversize for me. When I shopped for my current bikes I knew two things. I wanted a bike with a low stack so I could get more aero, and I wanted a bike that was 4 lbs or more lighter.

When going to the shops, I knew what to look for and quickly eliminated all the bikes that didn't fit that criteria. There really were only a few models that satisfied those requirements. So all the other bikes that didn't meet those requirements, though attractive were not even given a chance to seduce me.

roadie276

I think I was hoping for something lighter and possibly deeper, though I know that increases the cost. Maybe a good option to keep in the back of my mind, though, thanks.

roadie276

Ah, cool. From counting the number of holes between supports (on https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ.../SM-RT800.html, which matches the above numbers), and on at the Tarmac SL7 Pro, it looks like they do 160/140 F/R, so that'd be 128+108=236g for the wheel set to get numbers comparable to rim brake wheels on that bike.

Badger6

I believe that 160/140 F/R is how the whole SL7 range is spec'd. All the ones I've seen IRL are, as well.

roadie276

Ah. I mostly want to try to get more aero to push for faster PRs, and among other things (maybe aero bars, position, helmet, etc) wheels are a common thing to upgrade for that. But, I didn't want to necessarily sink a lot of money into new rim brake wheels, and all the latest/fanciest wheels are disc brake, so that's what's making me consider a new bike...disc brakes so I can get more aero wheels so I can go (slightly) faster. And granted, wheels actually aren't the best first thing to upgrade for aero, but if a new bike were in the cards, getting the marginal frame aero improvements, going w/e-shifting for a cleaner cockpit, etc could be little things that could add up to make it worthwhile to upgrade, on the whole. But, I don't want to massively sacrifice comfort, ability to ride when it's slightly windy out, want to still be able to use the bike with my indoor trainer, etc, thus all the questions. : )

Badger6

Well, AFAIK, it looks like most of the major wheel companies have ceased all rim brake development. They still offer them, but as they continue research to make their rims slipperier and slipperier, they are focusing the technology on top rims that are ONLY being manufactured for use with disc brake hubs. And, the most aero options, of course, are ones built with an eye for aerodynamic advantage starting from the beginning, as opposed to bolting on more aero bars, or wheels, or brakes, etc.

roadie276

Interestingly, this number goes down to 196g for the new Dura-Ace 9200 and Ultegra 8100 rotors (160mm rotor+ring = 108g now, and the 140mm is 88g). So that's kind of cool.

Moisture

Have you considered trying to "upgrade" yourself?