How low can the saddle get?
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
7 Posts
How low can the saddle get?
Just for the heck of an experiment, I wanted to see how low I can get the saddle while still getting proper leg extension.
I managed to get the saddle that low that I can touch the ground with both feet while seated on the saddle with the tops of my feet while getting the right leg extension.
All in all the drop is very significant, and my center of gravity has lowered by a lot. The whole ride feeling has changed.
To achieve this, I tried a few mods.
First, getting rid of clipless pedals with a high stack height and going to thin platform pedals + thin soled shoes. This lowers the saddle by 2 to 3 centimeters.
Second, swapping to a more midfoot pedal position.
Thirdly, pushing the saddle as far back as possible, and going for an ultra short stem to maintain the same reach. ( I know, ultra short mtb stems are never used with roadbikes ... but I don't think it's as twitchy as they say -- the human body adapts and accustomes quickly).
Fourthly, swapping to slightly longer cranks (but I still use much shorter cranks than most cyclists namely 145, and 152.).
As a consequence of the lower position I was able to get rid of all stem spacers.
All of these are quite controversial changes to a roadbike, i am well aware.
But for the sake of experimentation, I am going to give it a a good try on the road.
I am significantly lower than before. I don't know how much, but I feel much closer to the ground. And I can touch the ground with both feet while seated in the saddle. it feels awesome. But now sure how it will feel after a long ride...
I managed to get the saddle that low that I can touch the ground with both feet while seated on the saddle with the tops of my feet while getting the right leg extension.
All in all the drop is very significant, and my center of gravity has lowered by a lot. The whole ride feeling has changed.
To achieve this, I tried a few mods.
First, getting rid of clipless pedals with a high stack height and going to thin platform pedals + thin soled shoes. This lowers the saddle by 2 to 3 centimeters.
Second, swapping to a more midfoot pedal position.
Thirdly, pushing the saddle as far back as possible, and going for an ultra short stem to maintain the same reach. ( I know, ultra short mtb stems are never used with roadbikes ... but I don't think it's as twitchy as they say -- the human body adapts and accustomes quickly).
Fourthly, swapping to slightly longer cranks (but I still use much shorter cranks than most cyclists namely 145, and 152.).
As a consequence of the lower position I was able to get rid of all stem spacers.
All of these are quite controversial changes to a roadbike, i am well aware.
But for the sake of experimentation, I am going to give it a a good try on the road.
I am significantly lower than before. I don't know how much, but I feel much closer to the ground. And I can touch the ground with both feet while seated in the saddle. it feels awesome. But now sure how it will feel after a long ride...
Last edited by Mr Sir; 05-31-22 at 12:38 PM.
Likes For Mr Sir:
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,163
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4271 Post(s)
Liked 4,706 Times
in
2,906 Posts
#3
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,649
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10241 Post(s)
Liked 11,593 Times
in
5,942 Posts
Likes For genejockey:
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,645 Times
in
6,054 Posts
Slam it!
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,949
Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Ibis Ripley AF, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 871 Post(s)
Liked 725 Times
in
436 Posts
I don't understand this obsession people have about being able to put their feet flat on the ground while on the saddle. It's a bike, not a dandy horse.
Likes For surak:
#6
Banned.
To achieve this, I tried a few mods.
First, getting rid of clipless pedals with a high stack height and going to thin platform pedals + thin soled shoes. This lowers the saddle by 2 to 3 centimeters.
Second, swapping to a more midfoot pedal position.
Thirdly, pushing the saddle as far back as possible, and going for an ultra short stem to maintain the same reach. ( I know, ultra short mtb stems are never used with roadbikes ... but I don't think it's as twitchy as they say -- the human body adapts and accustomes quickly).
Fourthly, swapping to slightly longer cranks (but I still use much shorter cranks than most cyclists namely 145, and 152.).
As a consequence of the lower position I was able to get rid of all stem spacers.
First, getting rid of clipless pedals with a high stack height and going to thin platform pedals + thin soled shoes. This lowers the saddle by 2 to 3 centimeters.
Second, swapping to a more midfoot pedal position.
Thirdly, pushing the saddle as far back as possible, and going for an ultra short stem to maintain the same reach. ( I know, ultra short mtb stems are never used with roadbikes ... but I don't think it's as twitchy as they say -- the human body adapts and accustomes quickly).
Fourthly, swapping to slightly longer cranks (but I still use much shorter cranks than most cyclists namely 145, and 152.).
As a consequence of the lower position I was able to get rid of all stem spacers.
Longer cranks is definitely not a good idea if you're looking to extend your knees more. Note, it will bend your knees more at the top of the pedal stroke and it makes the situation worse (in my experience riding between a bike with long vs short crank). An alternative option to get the pedals or BB lower is swap your wheels for a smaller set.
I pedal heels down and lowered my seat for the technique and without doing any other of the things you wrote back there, I can put feet down on the ground with ease when I'm stopped. I didn't originally pedaled heels down. I trained for it. I noticed in long rides before I adopted the technique, I've noticed I'm dropping my heels when I'm tired then my saddle feels too high and uncomfortable when my heels are dropped all the way. So I started pedaling heels down all the time, lowered my saddle and all my saddle issues in long rides went away!
#7
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
7 Posts
I am well aware that what I am doing is a taboo by the mainstream GCN but I don't care.So I took the bike as it is for the first test ride out. I notice that my lower center of gravity makes the bike feel stable - it seems to counterbalance the ultra short 35mm stem. I don't notice the ''increased twitcheness'' of a short stem or I have just not ridden enough yet. My bars have quite a far reach so while in the hoods I am not far off the contact patch in the tire (along that vertical line, I forgot what its called).
I am so low that right now I can basically look car drivers in the eyes through their windshields. And I don't live in SUV country, I am talking normal cars. I also notice I am working different muscle groups now that I am riding much more ''crank forward'', especially the muscles in the lower leg feel much greater use. I will have to build these new muscle groups, but I will persist with it at the moment. The more crank forward position also puts less pressure on the perineum I noticed. I don't know what's more efficient pedalling-- having the crank forward (saddle back) or being seated more above the crank like the TT riders. Sometimes what's accepted as being true isn't always true in cycling. Either way, even being more behind the cranks right now, I have no problem with my thighs hitting my chest even when cycling with a horizontal back because of my short cranks.
Swapping to 650B wheels would drop the whole bike another ~1.9 cm but its an investment I cant afford right now. I'd rather keep the 700C wheels and have the BB dropped a few centimeters but alas that would require a custom frame. Since I ride 145 mm cranks I could do either option without worrying about pedal strikes.
I am so low that right now I can basically look car drivers in the eyes through their windshields. And I don't live in SUV country, I am talking normal cars. I also notice I am working different muscle groups now that I am riding much more ''crank forward'', especially the muscles in the lower leg feel much greater use. I will have to build these new muscle groups, but I will persist with it at the moment. The more crank forward position also puts less pressure on the perineum I noticed. I don't know what's more efficient pedalling-- having the crank forward (saddle back) or being seated more above the crank like the TT riders. Sometimes what's accepted as being true isn't always true in cycling. Either way, even being more behind the cranks right now, I have no problem with my thighs hitting my chest even when cycling with a horizontal back because of my short cranks.
Swapping to 650B wheels would drop the whole bike another ~1.9 cm but its an investment I cant afford right now. I'd rather keep the 700C wheels and have the BB dropped a few centimeters but alas that would require a custom frame. Since I ride 145 mm cranks I could do either option without worrying about pedal strikes.
Last edited by Mr Sir; 06-01-22 at 10:36 AM.
Likes For Mr Sir:
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,755
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3190 Post(s)
Liked 2,460 Times
in
1,489 Posts
Flattening the tires should drop the saddle some more
Likes For seypat:
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,879
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3905 Post(s)
Liked 7,181 Times
in
2,905 Posts
If you sit on a phonebook, you can lower the saddle another 2-3 cm and still get full leg extension.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,683
Bikes: 2000 Litespeed Vortex Chorus 10, 1995 DeBernardi Cromor S/S
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 645 Post(s)
Liked 797 Times
in
446 Posts
Just for the heck of an experiment, I wanted to see how low I can get the saddle while still getting proper leg extension.
I managed to get the saddle that low that I can touch the ground with both feet while seated on the saddle with the tops of my feet while getting the right leg extension.
All in all the drop is very significant, and my center of gravity has lowered by a lot. The whole ride feeling has changed.
To achieve this, I tried a few mods.
First, getting rid of clipless pedals with a high stack height and going to thin platform pedals + thin soled shoes. This lowers the saddle by 2 to 3 centimeters.
Second, swapping to a more midfoot pedal position.
Thirdly, pushing the saddle as far back as possible, and going for an ultra short stem to maintain the same reach. ( I know, ultra short mtb stems are never used with roadbikes ... but I don't think it's as twitchy as they say -- the human body adapts and accustomes quickly).
Fourthly, swapping to slightly longer cranks (but I still use much shorter cranks than most cyclists namely 145, and 152.).
As a consequence of the lower position I was able to get rid of all stem spacers.
All of these are quite controversial changes to a roadbike, i am well aware.
But for the sake of experimentation, I am going to give it a a good try on the road.
I am significantly lower than before. I don't know how much, but I feel much closer to the ground. And I can touch the ground with both feet while seated in the saddle. it feels awesome. But now sure how it will feel after a long ride...
I managed to get the saddle that low that I can touch the ground with both feet while seated on the saddle with the tops of my feet while getting the right leg extension.
All in all the drop is very significant, and my center of gravity has lowered by a lot. The whole ride feeling has changed.
To achieve this, I tried a few mods.
First, getting rid of clipless pedals with a high stack height and going to thin platform pedals + thin soled shoes. This lowers the saddle by 2 to 3 centimeters.
Second, swapping to a more midfoot pedal position.
Thirdly, pushing the saddle as far back as possible, and going for an ultra short stem to maintain the same reach. ( I know, ultra short mtb stems are never used with roadbikes ... but I don't think it's as twitchy as they say -- the human body adapts and accustomes quickly).
Fourthly, swapping to slightly longer cranks (but I still use much shorter cranks than most cyclists namely 145, and 152.).
As a consequence of the lower position I was able to get rid of all stem spacers.
All of these are quite controversial changes to a roadbike, i am well aware.
But for the sake of experimentation, I am going to give it a a good try on the road.
I am significantly lower than before. I don't know how much, but I feel much closer to the ground. And I can touch the ground with both feet while seated in the saddle. it feels awesome. But now sure how it will feel after a long ride...
Likes For Litespud:
#12
should be more popular
There's more to saddle fore/aft than what you can compensate for with a stem, i.e., your hip positioning relative to the bottom bracket. You may have given up the most efficient angle for your legs, along with the rather useful pedals.
You could find a low stack shoe and pedal combo and mount the cleats further back into more of an endurance position, and chuck some 650b wheels on instead.
You could find a low stack shoe and pedal combo and mount the cleats further back into more of an endurance position, and chuck some 650b wheels on instead.
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,045
Mentioned: 210 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18318 Post(s)
Liked 15,261 Times
in
7,219 Posts
NSFW
#15
Method to My Madness
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,540
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1873 Post(s)
Liked 1,409 Times
in
978 Posts
Cyclist who rode 100 miles out of the saddle to repeat ride on Zwift to prove he wasn't lying | road.cc
Likes For SoSmellyAir:
#16
Cheerfully low end
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 1,965
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 642 Post(s)
Liked 1,040 Times
in
663 Posts
You are not aiming low enough.
Cyclist who rode 100 miles out of the saddle to repeat ride on Zwift to prove he wasn't lying | road.cc
Cyclist who rode 100 miles out of the saddle to repeat ride on Zwift to prove he wasn't lying | road.cc
I threw rear clusters on both bikes recently, so I have taller gears that help with standing more.
But if you really want to do a lot of standing on a round crank bike, you probably want to go down to 150mm cranks to give you a reasonable 300mm or 12” step size. That’s what Elliptigo did with their SUB.
BTW, who’s the guy from Wisconsin (I think?) that some folks here know who rides a custom bike built for standing only?
Otto
#18
Grupetto Bob
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,065
Bikes: Bikey McBike Face
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2511 Post(s)
Liked 5,421 Times
in
2,824 Posts
I personally would like to see you touch ‘the tops’ of your feet on the ground. The soles of the feet are easy, but it’s no wonder you are going through all those contortions for the tops.
__________________
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
#21
Banned.
There's more to saddle fore/aft than what you can compensate for with a stem, i.e., your hip positioning relative to the bottom bracket. You may have given up the most efficient angle for your legs, along with the rather useful pedals.
You could find a low stack shoe and pedal combo and mount the cleats further back into more of an endurance position, and chuck some 650b wheels on instead.
You could find a low stack shoe and pedal combo and mount the cleats further back into more of an endurance position, and chuck some 650b wheels on instead.
And if that is not enough, you can take a 32mm stem and install it in reverse! I've experimented with large aft seat position on a road bike. I found that hip position against the BB is irrelevant after getting used to it for a few weeks. What is relevant is the hip angle against the torso. The bigger the angle, the better. Moving the saddle back reduces this angle but you can compensate for it by reducing stem length / reach.
I also experimented with varying stem lengths with regards to steering stability. I discovered that reducing stem length made steering lighter. Not necessarily twitchy. Twitchy was only initially but after a few days of getting used to it. It wasn't twitchy anymore and actually stable and the light steering was incredibly useful for making tight turns. I went as far as taking a 32 mm stem and installing it backwards (not flipped upside down but rotated backwards!). After a short time getting acquainted with it, it was stable to my surprise and even comfortable if you have large aft seat adjustment. The only problem with very close and low handlebar is the knees hitting the handlebar when standing on the pedals even if not pedaling! That problem can be dangerous so I don't recommend it unless your handlebar is high enough, impossible to hit with the knees if you stand.
#22
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
7 Posts
I definitely considered the wheel conversion. It's something I might do in the future. But I could go down lower than 650B. I won't go with 650C for the sake of practicality, but 559 ERTRO would work. But then I might start risking pedal clips again even with 145 mm cranks. (like you would with 175mm cranks with 700c). And I would need a disc brake bike.
The point of it all is trying to low the saddle-to-ground distance. This increases aerodynamics, safety and lowers the center of gravity. The whole ride feels more stable. To all you boring trolls in this thread, you lack imagination. Of course I fully expected you to arrive ,and all is forgiven.
As to recumbents, been there, done that. They have definite advantages, but also disadvantages. I don't intend to go back to them. What I did like was their lower height. So I am trying to transfer some of that to my roadbike experience.
As to putting both feet down completely flat, that's not my goal and not possible I think without sacrificing leg extension. My current tweaks allow me to fred flint stone the bike but only with the tops of my tops. I still have plenty pedal clearance to go even lower.
I don't think I will go back to clipless pedals. At least not to SPD-SL. When I used SPD-SL and shoes I couldn't walk properly in, I noticed I was much more hesitant to use my bike in a practical manner other than recreational rides, having to carry another set of shoes and constantly change them when I got somewhere. So far my large-surface-area platforms pedals are suiting me superbly. Of course, if I go to smaller wheels, the wide and long platforms might be swapped again for smaller
low stack height clipless pedals to prevent pedal strikes-- but I aint going back to shoes I can't walk in.
Your experience with short stems seem to so far resemble mine Koala Logs.
I don't deny that short stems make for quicker steering, but as to the bike becoming unstable because of it, that's up to the rider. A lot of it is confirmation bias.
If ones believes it will become unstable and start out with usin the short stem with negative impression, it usually ends up being negative. If you start out using the short stem with a positive attitude your body quickly adapts.
In general, shorter stems are helpful for people with too large a frame. Not everyone can afford to simply buy another bike. A $20 stem swap, even if it's an ultra short 35mm one, will make the bike rideable for the person until
he or she can afford a smaller framed bike.
The point of it all is trying to low the saddle-to-ground distance. This increases aerodynamics, safety and lowers the center of gravity. The whole ride feels more stable. To all you boring trolls in this thread, you lack imagination. Of course I fully expected you to arrive ,and all is forgiven.
As to recumbents, been there, done that. They have definite advantages, but also disadvantages. I don't intend to go back to them. What I did like was their lower height. So I am trying to transfer some of that to my roadbike experience.
As to putting both feet down completely flat, that's not my goal and not possible I think without sacrificing leg extension. My current tweaks allow me to fred flint stone the bike but only with the tops of my tops. I still have plenty pedal clearance to go even lower.
I don't think I will go back to clipless pedals. At least not to SPD-SL. When I used SPD-SL and shoes I couldn't walk properly in, I noticed I was much more hesitant to use my bike in a practical manner other than recreational rides, having to carry another set of shoes and constantly change them when I got somewhere. So far my large-surface-area platforms pedals are suiting me superbly. Of course, if I go to smaller wheels, the wide and long platforms might be swapped again for smaller
low stack height clipless pedals to prevent pedal strikes-- but I aint going back to shoes I can't walk in.
Your experience with short stems seem to so far resemble mine Koala Logs.
I don't deny that short stems make for quicker steering, but as to the bike becoming unstable because of it, that's up to the rider. A lot of it is confirmation bias.
If ones believes it will become unstable and start out with usin the short stem with negative impression, it usually ends up being negative. If you start out using the short stem with a positive attitude your body quickly adapts.
In general, shorter stems are helpful for people with too large a frame. Not everyone can afford to simply buy another bike. A $20 stem swap, even if it's an ultra short 35mm one, will make the bike rideable for the person until
he or she can afford a smaller framed bike.
Last edited by Mr Sir; 06-02-22 at 02:46 AM.
#24
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,531
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10897 Post(s)
Liked 7,384 Times
in
4,144 Posts
Some guy rides(rode?) RAGBRAI on a bike with no saddle. The story I heard is that years ago his saddle broke so he stood to finish the ride. He then stood every mile of RAGBRAI since. The bike I saw him on was designed without a seatpost.
#25
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,531
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10897 Post(s)
Liked 7,384 Times
in
4,144 Posts
The point of it all is trying to low the saddle-to-ground distance. This increases aerodynamics, safety and lowers the center of gravity. The whole ride feels more stable. To all you boring trolls in this thread, you lack imagination. Of course I fully expected you to arrive ,and all is forgiven.
Lowering the saddle without full leg extension(no chance you actually have them properly extended if you are touching the ground) uses different muscles and makes pushing out power a lot more difficult.
If you want to sit in the bike more than atop the bike, just get a bike with more bottom bracket drop. Its pretty simple.
Or keep doing what you do and call people trolls in the meantime. Either way, I guess.