Early Moser frame identification
#1
SAARF WAS WRONG!
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Early Moser frame identification
I went to a bike salvage guy to look for parts, and instead of finding any parts worth anything I managed to come away with a couple of cheap frames. They are a bit rusty looking like they sat outside in the pile for a spell. He had better frames, but they all looked like low quality welded aluminum stuff; probably why they were left to the elements. One is showing itself to be a Moser/FMoser frame per the engraved frame and fork. The other is unknown but has a bunch a 'star' cut-outs on the lugs, fork, and bottom bracket shell. I got the Moser frame because it looked kind of cool even though a bit big for me. The 'star' frame I got because it too seemed like a nice frame and was my size. Both frames are lightweight and verified to have Italian threaded bottom brackets ('star' frame had one installed-OMAS?), Camp. front and rear drop-outs & top shell cable guides, and fit a 27.2mm seat post. Neither had any decals for further identification.
Here are photos of the Moser frame. Hopefully someone can give an idea of what it is and its age (I guess-estimate mid 70s to early 80s). I took a bunch of photos to provide visuals of all the details. I could barely make out the down tube and seat tube decals (MOSER lettering) from the paint discoloration; the headbadge decal outline was also just barely visible and appears to be oval with a 'tail' (like a backwards "Q"). There appeared to be tiny decal remnants (gold and red) at the top of the seat tube that may indicate Columbus tubing, but what type; I wouldn't know. There is a 1986 bike club decal on it so I assume it to be earlier than that year. I have learned about the ridges in Columbus' steering tubes and saw none (the 'star' frame does have them). "56" stamped on steerer, "57" stamped on bottom bracket. Size measured 56cm top tube c-c, 57cm seat tube c-c, head tube 16cm, bottom bracket shell 70mm, rear fork 125mm, post 27.2mm.
Here are photos of the Moser frame. Hopefully someone can give an idea of what it is and its age (I guess-estimate mid 70s to early 80s). I took a bunch of photos to provide visuals of all the details. I could barely make out the down tube and seat tube decals (MOSER lettering) from the paint discoloration; the headbadge decal outline was also just barely visible and appears to be oval with a 'tail' (like a backwards "Q"). There appeared to be tiny decal remnants (gold and red) at the top of the seat tube that may indicate Columbus tubing, but what type; I wouldn't know. There is a 1986 bike club decal on it so I assume it to be earlier than that year. I have learned about the ridges in Columbus' steering tubes and saw none (the 'star' frame does have them). "56" stamped on steerer, "57" stamped on bottom bracket. Size measured 56cm top tube c-c, 57cm seat tube c-c, head tube 16cm, bottom bracket shell 70mm, rear fork 125mm, post 27.2mm.
Last edited by le bici di jaco; 11-08-21 at 01:21 PM.
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#2
SAARF WAS WRONG!
Thread Starter
Fork details and faint image of headbadge decal outline:
Moser steerer tube
Moser head tube with headbadge outline
Moser steerer tube
Moser head tube with headbadge outline
#3
Senior Member
The dropout is drilled for a Campagnolo Portacatena. That was introduced in 1977. So, you frame is after that. I have a Moser that I believe is a 1984/5. Your frame has some things in common with mine, but definitely earlier. So, my guess is between 1977 and 1984. Pretty much the same as your guess. One thing I would like to warn you about. If the brake bridge is the same as mine, it doesn't accept a regular recessed nut. It uses a funky looking recessed nut. Basically, it looks like a smooth set screw/grub screw with internal threading. I hope you can picture it from that poor description. Better yet, I hope you don't have the same bridge.
Last edited by gearbasher; 11-08-21 at 03:07 PM.
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#4
SAARF WAS WRONG!
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Thank you gearbasher . I will check the brake mount and see what will fit. What type of headbadge is on your bike? Is it oval or round? I have only seen examples with "MOSER" in vertical lettering. I would like to put on some decals if I do end up painting it. I probably will sell it since it is a little large, but for $50 I thought it was a decent enough frame to try and practice on, but not so nice or expensive that I could really screw up too badly when I try my hand at paint work. I do need to weigh it and get an idea as to its tubing make-up. The 'star' frame seems lighter even with BB installed, but is a smaller frame by 4cm height wise.
Jake
Jake
#5
Senior Member
My bike has Moser in vertical lettering on the head tube. How about some pics of the "star" frame? It sounds interesting.
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Moser didnt start making bikes until 1979. The early ones...79, 80, and 81 would have had stenciled in paint Francesco Moser on the downtube. Also not sure when they started using that bottom bracket shell.
i haven't researched too much after those years as they don't apply to mine.
i haven't researched too much after those years as they don't apply to mine.
#7
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Please disregard the aero cage... it was only on there for a day. It bothered me.
#8
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Moser didnt start making bikes until 1979. The early ones...79, 80, and 81 would have had stenciled in paint Francesco Moser on the downtube. Also not sure when they started using that bottom bracket shell.
i haven't researched too much after those years as they don't apply to mine.
i haven't researched too much after those years as they don't apply to mine.
Also, the OP's Moser has above the BB cable guides which would put it in the earlier range.
Last edited by gearbasher; 11-09-21 at 10:15 AM.
#9
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Another set is identical except it also has 2 World Championship victories: "CAMPIONE del MONDO SU STRADA 1977"; and "CAMPIONE del MONDO 1976". Are these correct; did Moser bikes actually have World Champion decals on them even though he did not win in the indicated year? I didn't know so I checked that 1977 was his only victory for the road race championship (second place in 76 and 78), and another victory in 1976 for individual pursuit on track; but no world championship victories in 1978 for any discipline. I must assume that the "1977" set is erroneous on multiple levels since the '78 decals are wrong and they could not have been on a '77 bike frame even if Moser made frames that early. The "1977" includes a Columbus decal with 2 wings on the dove; I don't know if that is correct since I know that it changed to 1 wing at some time.
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The decals are to commemorate his win in 78..... It was a season long competition for 'best overall rider', not a 'specific race. They put those on quite a few of his bikes.
Mine is from 80/81, and has FM cut out on the bottom bracket shell.
Mine is from 80/81, and has FM cut out on the bottom bracket shell.
#11
Senior Member
My bike's top tube has a decal that says (it's in poor condition and hard to read) Trophee Super Prestige Pernod Arc en Ciel F. Moser 1978. There are two decals on the seat tube that say 51.151 Campione Del Mondo 1977 Campione D'Italia 75-79-81
My BB shell has the same slotted cutout the Op has. But, there is no Moser stamp and there are under the bracket cable guides. It also has Moser dropouts.
My BB shell has the same slotted cutout the Op has. But, there is no Moser stamp and there are under the bracket cable guides. It also has Moser dropouts.
Last edited by gearbasher; 11-10-21 at 08:10 AM.
#12
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The frame probably dates from 1984-? 85?
here are a few pics of mine...although I'm fairly sure it was built by De rosa, there are quite a few small differences.
Last pic is Moser on the right in 1980.
here are a few pics of mine...although I'm fairly sure it was built by De rosa, there are quite a few small differences.
Last pic is Moser on the right in 1980.
Last edited by uncleivan; 11-09-21 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Cant write
#13
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1981...82? Portacatenas can be deceptive because frame makers kept using them since the drops themselves were still fine w/o the ports needed.
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#14
Senior Member
Here's my Moser. The only pic I have. It no longer has the pantographed parts. I sold those to a guy in Japan for more than I paid for the entire bike. It now has mostly Campy 9 speed (record and Chorus) and fenders. It's my foul weather bike,
Last edited by gearbasher; 11-09-21 at 06:15 PM.
#15
SAARF WAS WRONG!
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I do understand that the "Pernod trophy" decal with 1978 is for season overall points leader; but the other 2 band style decals specifically state "World Champion" and "World Champion Road", both with world champion stripes for '78 also. Yes, he won a lot and/or finished in the top group, but still never won any world championship in '78 as the decals plainly state. The decals stating world championship wins in 76 and 77 are identical to the '78 decals other than the year of victories shown on them. My frame clearly has outlines, or paint discoloration on the seat tube where there were 2 band decals above and below MOSER; as well the same indications of decals on the down tube showing Francesco Moser; and on the head tube showing the oval decal. There is no indication of any sign of a decal on the top tube making me think this is a 1977-1978 model which could still have the 2 World Champ. decals, but not the "Pernod" decal until later.
Last edited by le bici di jaco; 11-10-21 at 04:22 AM.
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They did not make bikes in 77-78. The bikes that were raced by moser during those years were built by De Rosa. If you go to bulgier.net there are some catalogs from 81 or so, the earliest production bikes from Francesco Moser. I've done a lot more than an hour of research.
#18
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They did not make bikes in 77-78. The bikes that were raced by moser during those years were built by De Rosa. If you go to bulgier.net there are some catalogs from 81 or so, the earliest production bikes from Francesco Moser. I've done a lot more than an hour of research.
Last edited by le bici di jaco; 11-11-21 at 03:22 PM.
#19
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gearbasher I have found out that the "star" frame is a Viner "Special Professional" with Columbus SL tubing. Photos have been posted of it; I will dedicate my time to that frame first as it needs more help and I want to ride it. Will take it to a professional painter for proper restoration.
#20
Senior Member
gearbasher I have found out that the "star" frame is a Viner "Special Professional" with Columbus SL tubing. Photos have been posted of it; I will dedicate my time to that frame first as it needs more help and I want to ride it. Will take it to a professional painter for proper restoration.
#21
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Here is a conversation I have had with a gentleman in Italy over the past couple of weeks. I cannot refute or confirm his testimony. As with information provided on this site, I just take it all in and try to form the best conclusion I can; be it correct or not. I do not profess to be any sort of expert (I am new to this hobby except as a rider), and will only repeat what information I have gathered, without prejudice, allowing others to form their own conclusions.
Conversation follows (unedited for content or correctness):
"I am trying to restore an older Moser bike; '70s to very early '80s, I believe. It appears to have had the Moser 'head' headbadge. You had referenced your '78 and '79 Mosers. Did they both have the 'head' badge or the Moser vertical decals? Did they have World Championship decals with the year on them? Thank you for your time and consideration.Respectfully,
Jake"
Response(s): "The ‘78 Moser had the ‘head’ decal and the later one had the vertical word being original decals."
"Thank you, it appears I need the 'head' badge. Any idea of what year that had stopped being used? Just trying to narrow down the year; frame appears to be Columbus, but unknown type.
Thanks again,
Jake"
"Actually my red moser is a pre 1979 as it doesn’t have the 1978 Pernod trophy decal. I’m no authority on mosers but there are loads of decal veriations over the years..
You could copy the decal layout on mine as a pre 79 bench mark."
"Thank you for your insight regarding this matter. I have looked carefully at the frame and I can make out discoloration of the paint: on the seat tube where there was an upper and lower band (presumably the '76 & '77 world champion decals) between which was "MOSER" lettering; on the down tube where there can be discerned "MOSER" lettering preceded by more lettering in a smaller font (presumably Francesco in script or block lettering); and on the head tube where there is the oval outline of the headbadge. There is no indication of the top tube "Pernod trophy" decal (either side of tube) whether by paint discoloration or decal remnants to show the past presence of that decal. So it may be that this frame is also a model year frame before 1979, or at least before the use of the "Pernod" decal. I have seen it said that the first year for Moser frames was 1979, but I have now seen multiple examples of frames claiming to be pre-'79 in manufacture. Just curious; what style of cut-out is on your bottom bracket (single slot or "FM"), and does it have "FMoser" in raised lettering; does it have "FMoser" stamped on the brake bridge knuckle?
Thanks again,
Jake"
"Hi,
The bottom bracket has a FM cut out. It doesn’t have any raised lettering, it does have rear brake bridge spears and a M cut outs in the lugs and FM engraved on the front fork crown. It was made by Antonio Taverna at Vetta in north east Italy, they made a lot of top name frames in the 70’s. I mailed them and they said mine was a moser original.
When I rode it in l’eroica I literally bumped into Francesco himself! Our bikes were virtually identical his friends took a few pictures of the bikes together.. both had yellow graphics and cabling, his was light blue and mine red his had super record and mine had dura ace.. both had assos saddles.
Regards
Edoardo"
"Hi Edoardo,
Wow! Great story. I am still trying figure this frame out; so many similarities, but just enough differences. I saw a catalog purported to be from either '81 or '83; I could not
make out the seat tube world chanpionship decals; but I could see that the headbadges were "MOSER" lettering and not his portrait. I have been corrected for saying that there are bikes from before 1979. That is only due to other's references to their own bikes (such as yours) and not my frame since I still do not know its provenance. I would love to talk to Mr. Moser and inquire as to what year he first designed and had frames built under the Cicli Moser marque.
Please be safe over there. I'm in the US, and I am still in the dark regarding European cycling lore.
Thank you,
Jake"
If I receive any more replies that directly apply to this thread I will post them accordingly. I now need to research Mr. Antonio Taverna to see if more light can be shed on this subject. Perhaps, if still possible, I can contact Mr. Taverna and/or Vetta to get some information as to what year(s) he was contracted to build frames for Moser.
Conversation follows (unedited for content or correctness):
"I am trying to restore an older Moser bike; '70s to very early '80s, I believe. It appears to have had the Moser 'head' headbadge. You had referenced your '78 and '79 Mosers. Did they both have the 'head' badge or the Moser vertical decals? Did they have World Championship decals with the year on them? Thank you for your time and consideration.Respectfully,
Jake"
Response(s): "The ‘78 Moser had the ‘head’ decal and the later one had the vertical word being original decals."
"Thank you, it appears I need the 'head' badge. Any idea of what year that had stopped being used? Just trying to narrow down the year; frame appears to be Columbus, but unknown type.
Thanks again,
Jake"
"Actually my red moser is a pre 1979 as it doesn’t have the 1978 Pernod trophy decal. I’m no authority on mosers but there are loads of decal veriations over the years..
You could copy the decal layout on mine as a pre 79 bench mark."
"Thank you for your insight regarding this matter. I have looked carefully at the frame and I can make out discoloration of the paint: on the seat tube where there was an upper and lower band (presumably the '76 & '77 world champion decals) between which was "MOSER" lettering; on the down tube where there can be discerned "MOSER" lettering preceded by more lettering in a smaller font (presumably Francesco in script or block lettering); and on the head tube where there is the oval outline of the headbadge. There is no indication of the top tube "Pernod trophy" decal (either side of tube) whether by paint discoloration or decal remnants to show the past presence of that decal. So it may be that this frame is also a model year frame before 1979, or at least before the use of the "Pernod" decal. I have seen it said that the first year for Moser frames was 1979, but I have now seen multiple examples of frames claiming to be pre-'79 in manufacture. Just curious; what style of cut-out is on your bottom bracket (single slot or "FM"), and does it have "FMoser" in raised lettering; does it have "FMoser" stamped on the brake bridge knuckle?
Thanks again,
Jake"
"Hi,
The bottom bracket has a FM cut out. It doesn’t have any raised lettering, it does have rear brake bridge spears and a M cut outs in the lugs and FM engraved on the front fork crown. It was made by Antonio Taverna at Vetta in north east Italy, they made a lot of top name frames in the 70’s. I mailed them and they said mine was a moser original.
When I rode it in l’eroica I literally bumped into Francesco himself! Our bikes were virtually identical his friends took a few pictures of the bikes together.. both had yellow graphics and cabling, his was light blue and mine red his had super record and mine had dura ace.. both had assos saddles.
Regards
Edoardo"
"Hi Edoardo,
Wow! Great story. I am still trying figure this frame out; so many similarities, but just enough differences. I saw a catalog purported to be from either '81 or '83; I could not
make out the seat tube world chanpionship decals; but I could see that the headbadges were "MOSER" lettering and not his portrait. I have been corrected for saying that there are bikes from before 1979. That is only due to other's references to their own bikes (such as yours) and not my frame since I still do not know its provenance. I would love to talk to Mr. Moser and inquire as to what year he first designed and had frames built under the Cicli Moser marque.
Please be safe over there. I'm in the US, and I am still in the dark regarding European cycling lore.
Thank you,
Jake"
If I receive any more replies that directly apply to this thread I will post them accordingly. I now need to research Mr. Antonio Taverna to see if more light can be shed on this subject. Perhaps, if still possible, I can contact Mr. Taverna and/or Vetta to get some information as to what year(s) he was contracted to build frames for Moser.
Last edited by le bici di jaco; 11-11-21 at 04:59 PM.
#22
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Believe what you want. The bike moser raced at paris roubaix in 1979 and carried over to 1980 it has the moser portrait on the head tube, blue with yellow graphics. The next year 80/81 season the Sanson Campagnolo team bikes were blue with white, with moser vertically on the headtube. There are pictures online of quite a few races.
It's possible that some moser production bikes got the portrait headtube decal..I do not know. I have seen the decals online, but have yet to see a catalog with them in it.
It's possible that some moser production bikes got the portrait headtube decal..I do not know. I have seen the decals online, but have yet to see a catalog with them in it.
Last edited by uncleivan; 11-11-21 at 06:59 PM.