smashndash

I’m looking for a tire that grips like mad (in the dry, mainly) but doesn’t sacrifice puncture protection. This is not for racing. It’s for training/riding around. Lots of technical descending around these parts and I aim to make every turn count. Ideally the grip should be on a par with the stickiest race tires out there. My main concern for protection is sidewall slashes or cuts in general, because I use sealant (even in tubes) for thorns etc.

The Panaracer Race D Evo4 seems to be a good fit. Wide tread, supposedly a tacky compound, and I’ve heard the Evo3 is fairly robust.

I see almost 0 feedback about the new Evo4 stuff online and was wondering if anyone here has used them and could compare them to other tires.

Sy Reene

Maybe more promising than the Evo3 version, where the D version was no different than the A in puncture protection? Evidently was just a longer lasting tread but offered nothing additional in puncture protection. Sidewall was identical to the Race A versions.

Consider the Corsa Controls. Wider central tread area than most other tires relative to overall tire width, if your priority is more protection in the sidewall areas.

Otherwise, the slower the tire, better the grip/durability benefit might apply. eg. you have Conti 4-seasons or Michelin Power All-seasons that could be considered.

smashndash

Corsa Controls are #1 on my list right now but I’m so scared that the roads around here are going to slice them to oblivion.

I don’t really want to go for one of those all-season tires because they tend to sacrifice dry grip and rolling resistance for grip in the wet/cold - two things that I’m not worried about in CA. Some, like the GP4s seem to advertise “increased wear resistance” which is exactly the opposite of what I want.

That’s good info about the Race A vs Race D. That being said, it looks like the A vs D have different casings. One is “alpha cord” and one is “3D casing”. I don’t know how much of a difference there is, and I’m wondering if that difference is new for the Evo4 generation.

I saw two reviews about the Evo4 A and neither had bad things to say about them. Both commented on their grip positively (more than the usual “it was good”).

For some reason, the Hutchinson fusion all-season (which seems to use the same compound as their race tire) has these horrible, deep grooves on the side of the tire and I am not interested in that, or else I would have considered that too.

masi61

Excel Sports Boulder has been running some pretty good sales on these tires, FYI. I want to say they are selling them for like ~ $35 each. I forget how they described the profile, but I bought a set for a Cannondale CAAD9 that I'm building up and have yet to road test them yet. The compound does indeed look very grippy. I have the tubeless ones. I will check when I get home which exact model it is but I will say that they mounted on my DT Swiss rims very nicely (tight fit but not TOO tight). They also inflated and held air tubeless without too much discomfort.

smashndash

Awesome. Looking forward to your experience. I’m assuming you got the Race A Evo4?

Also, the Panaracer Gravelking and Gravelking Plus look like pretty decent options. I can’t tell what makes them a gravel tires though. It seems as though they use the “ZSG Natural” compound instead of “ZSG Advanced” and have a file tread. I wish we had more information about the difference between these compounds, but I assume that the ZSG Advanced compound is designed more for grip and the ZSG Natural is designed more for durability on gravel?

illdrag0n

Maybe look at the Continental Grand Prix? Same compound as the GP4000, similar rolling resistance, but more protection from the PolyXBreaker belt

Racing Dan

Im not aware of anyone testing "grip" to any degree other than purely subjective and im also not confident that what ever testing on puncture protection is done, translates well to real world conditions. Do you find limitations in "grip" to be a real issue. I havent noticed any slipping, except on slippery leaves and such, that im convinced any tyre would slip on.

The Control tyres, either Rubino or Corsa, from Vittoria seem like the tyre you are asking for, even if Im sure other brands have similar options.

masi61

Oh, it looks, mine are “Race A EVO3”. The lack of a tread but the still grippy compound reminds me of the old Avocet FasGrip tires that I used to really love and that are no longer available.

smashndash

Yeah I’ve considered it. I’m not super assured about the sidewall durability of those tires though. I know that 4ks used to get sliced like butter. Also I get the feeling that Continental likes to focus on rolling resistance more than grip (just from the focus of their marketing) - though I do wish I could see an objective comparison as Racing Dan suggests.

I have yet to low-side because a compound was not sticky enough but I don’t see why it has to get to that point before I say I want a sticky tire. Hard cornering is one of the few things I enjoy about biking and I want to make the most of it without ending up in the ER, which is certain at the speeds one hits around these parts. And I have looked at the Rubino, but it doesn’t seem like the Rubino is necessarily that tough of a tire - it’s just a cheaper carcass. As stated above, I actually do plan on racing with Corsa Controls but I think training on them would be foolish around here.

Of course any tire will slip on leaves, sand, gravel, etc. Of course I’m not using 100% of available grip and I probably never have. But I don’t want to ride with no margin for error. On the open road, things happen. I frankly find the (road) bike community’s apathy towards grip baffling. In practically every other wheeled sport, grip is king. In the absence of objective data, I would still like a tire that subjectively delivers a lot of confidence.

masi61

Michelin used to provide a chart bar graphs which showed the various attributes of the Pro3 and Pro4 tires. I think they do the same thing for the Power series now. I have always heard that there were “rain” specific tires which offer increased grip in the wet but at the expense of shortened tire life.

Edit - I just checked the Michelin chart and they list the “Power All Season” tire as 3 stars(apparently their max rating - on the units they are using) for wet grip and longevity. Dry grip on this particular tire is slightly off, listed at a “2.5” stars.

bpcyclist

Just be aware, if you go with Rubinos, they are not very puncture resistant. I have a pair sitting in the corner of my living room collecting dust. Good tires, but horribly prone to flats. I also don't race, so this time of year, I use Gator Hardshells. Rolling resistance is obviously not great, but I don't care. I still go plenty fast and I never get a flat. Like, ever. At the end of the day, if you prioritize speed, you will inevitably sacrifice puncture resistance.

smashndash

Digging up this thread. Just bought a pair of Race D Evo4 tires. Will post impressions here.

rubiksoval

The GP4ks and now the 5000s are my crit racing tires for races in which I continually corner at 25-35 mph. I've never had an issue with their grip on all types of different courses with varying surfaces.

I don't know that they'd meet the puncture/tear resistance that you're looking for, but I do appreciate their grippiness in the wet and dry.

Woops. Old thread.

smashndash

Just installed them today. First impressions.

These tires are STIFF. Stiffer than gators? Real stiff. They could probably hold up the whole bike with 0psi. They were also somewhat tough to work onto my seriously undersized rims, but nothing even close to a TL tire on a normal rim.

The tire is fairly small. It's a true 28, I believe. 68mm carcass, 32mm tread.

They were initially covered in slimy mold release agent (?). I wiped with a wet rag then sanded the tires and that got most of it off. Filled them up with 70psi initially but they felt ROCK hard. Reduced to 50-55psi for break-in purposes.

I was scrubbing the tires by zig zagging hard (at like 5mph) and bike slipped out from under me. Ouch. Probably should have scrubbed a bit more gradually.

Once all the mold release agent was scrubbed off, I did some cornering drills. I used chalk to make sure I was leaning as far as the tread could handle (which, at 50psi, isn't too much). The tire felt pretty predictable to the limit. Maybe a bit numb?

The tire rolled surprisingly nicely. Not nearly as draggy as I expected given the stiffness. Overall, the tire mostly meets my initial expectations. The compound isn't as tacky as I was expecting but we'll see.

Pics:

chaadster

smashndash You should probably look at the 28c IRC Formula Pro X-Guards, if you haven’t. Full carcass protection layer, and classic file tread pattern. I’ve used the Formula Pro Lights before, which are the same less the double-layer, 40tpi protective element, and they handled great.

https://ircbike.com/products/formula...beless-x-guard

smashndash

Yep that was my #2, believe it or not. But at $80 a pop, that was a tough pill to swallow. If they had more of a following or more press I maybe would have considered it.

They're also TL and I'm using tubes... though there probably isn't much harm in just sticking some tubes in there.

EDIT: Just scrolled through the thread and realized that I mentioned the Corsa Controls. I have those now, on my race wheels, which I don't use at all LOL. They're super grippy and comfortable but I sliced the front sidewall in the first 200 miles or so. Hence the Panaracers.

chaadster

Ha! I cut one of the Formula Pros like on the second ride, and was not about to spend that money again, so went back to Schwalbe Pro One, which is really my favorite tire of all time. They’re superb performers for me, but not particularly tough, so not a good option for your needs.

I’m diving into wide tires right now, with two sets of Herse tires at 35c and 47c. I dunno if you can fit anything fat like that, but they make some interesting claims about wider tires being less susceptible to punctures, and offer a tough Endurance casing option in addition to Standard and Extralight casings.

smashndash

Unfortunately, I have to take back my recommendation for the panaracer Race D Evo4. They were decent on my narrow alloy rims but on my wide carbon rims (printed 28 on a 23mm internal width rim), they developed a new problem.

In corners, the tire would start squeaking and slightly slipping. This was exacerbated on slick pavement (the kind you see in parking lots). It was also exacerbated by high pressures. Lower pressures (~50psi) mitigated the issue by allowing me to lean more before the squeaking and slipping happened. The squeaking is unpredictable and sudden. It feels like you're about to lose the front.

I switched back to my Corsa Control TLR and have regained my confidence. I'm sad to take off the Panaracers because they were fairly fast and VERY tough. We have goatheads, glass, gravel etc all over our roads. Last week the group ride got 8 flats. I had yet to flat even once. But the tire simply scared me too many times. It's not worth crashing over flats.

It's definitely worth discussing as to why this wasn't an issue on my alloy rims. Maybe the threshold was just higher on while on those rims and I never pushed that hard. Could it possibly be that narrower rims have some handling benefits? I'm still not sure as to why the tire starts squeaking like that, but I imagine the stiffness of the carcass has something to do with it, otherwise lowering the pressure wouldn't have such a drastic effect.

It's also worth noting that the tires became noticeably more supple over time.

chaadster

Maybe the wider rim at low pressure caused squeaking because the tire was deforming onto the shoulders or sidewall, off the tread.

Racing Dan

ETRTO does specify what size tyre go with what size rim. A 28mm tyre is not supposed to go on a rim wider than 19mm internal and 17mm internal for a 25mm tyre. Unusual wide rims IS experimenting. The tyres wasn't designed for this use. For what ever reason (marketing really) ppl now think wider=better, more wider = more better

ETRTO was updated recently, but Im betting my arse lots of tyres will perform better sticking to the tried and tested standards.

Imo your conclusion is wrong. You should revoke you recommendation for your (too) wide rims. The tyres are fine .. ;-)

smashndash

I don't think that's it. I used chalk to see how deep I was leaning into the tire. It doesn't take much lean at all for it to happen. Also, a lower pressure would make the issue worse, not better.

I could turn somewhat hard on good surfaces (sorry I don't know enough about road surfaces to describe what I mean) without too many issues. It was the worst on sealcoated parking lots and driveways. It's glossy and you can feel the lack of grip. Even low speed turns were spooky.

smashndash

OK. I'll make sure to tell Trek, Specialized, ENVE, 3T, Zipp, Hunt and also the literal ETRTO that you said that.

WhyFi

His hunch is better than their research.

chaadster

Ah, I did misread that about the relationship of PSI to the squealing, so yeah, I guess that's not it. Sorry.