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You think rim brake, direct mount will return?

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You think rim brake, direct mount will return?

Old 07-18-21, 06:38 AM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by Rolla
Yes, but my point was that their evolution has peaked, and little if anything is being done to make them competitive in the market. In that respect, I maintain that the comparison is apt.
That may be true, but if they work as advertised, why do they need to continue to evolve? What is fundamentally insufficient about rim brakes? They worked perfectly for decades at the highest levels of competition and are simple enough to put on cheap bikes of all varieties. 10 years ago there used to be threads like this but everyone was on the side of rim brakes. Nobody felt rim brakes were a problem. The only reason they might not be competitive in the market is because the same companies that make rim brakes also make disk brakes, and the new rage is disk brakes. You don't even have an option any more on new bikes. They all seem to have disks. That's what the OEMs are pushing now.
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Old 07-18-21, 06:42 AM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by kingston
I have no idea. I'm just some middle-aged white guy from the suburbs. Froome is the only one I've seen publicly complain about it recently. There were a lot a few years ago when the transition was just getting started. Apparently someone on team Israel forgot to tell Froome to keep his opinions about disks to himself after coming from Ineos who still ride rim brake Pinarellos. I notice the issue has since been corrected.
Pro cyclists depend on sponsorship. Very few riders actually make much money to start with....complaining about your free gear is a good way to lose sponsorship. Whatever it is that some company is providing will be the best ever in the words of the riders. Their livelihood depends on marketing.
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Old 07-18-21, 06:43 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson
The only reason they might not be competitive in the market is because the same companies that make rim brakes also make disk brakes, and the new rage is disk brakes. You don't even have an option any more on new bikes. They all seem to have disks.
Originally Posted by pgjackson
What else have I missed?
You missed the period when both were available and buyers decided that both didn't need to be available.
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Old 07-18-21, 06:50 AM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson
Maybe the next evolution in brakes will simply be smaller and lighter disk brakes. That really is the next logical step.
How would you make them smaller? Pretty sure they're fairly well minimised already; the first generation of flat mount calipers were pretty sleek, and came along twenty-odd years after the first hydraulic disc calipers.

I wouldn't say there's much fat to trim.
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Old 07-18-21, 06:58 AM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
You missed the period when both were available and buyers decided that both didn't need to be available.
Yeah, a transition period kinda had to exist though, so that buyers and the marketplace could get used to the idea.
It's not hard to imagine why the bike manufacturers really didn't want to keep having to maintain two production lines for every model frame and wheelset. In year 1 of discs being available, did they outsell rim brakes? Probably not. But they continued to be offered moreso in year 2, and so on.
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Old 07-18-21, 06:59 AM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
How would you make them smaller? Pretty sure they're fairly well minimised already; the first generation of flat mount calipers were pretty sleek, and came along twenty-odd years after the first hydraulic disc calipers.

I wouldn't say there's much fat to trim.
Of course they can make them smaller and lighter. That's why it would be the next evolution.
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Old 07-18-21, 07:12 AM
  #157  
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Yup, Big Bike collusion.

Shimano does not publicly share sales numbers, but road product manager Dave Lawrence says disc brakes are certainly overtaking rim brakes this year.“It is across the board, not just high- or low-end bikes or groups,” Lawrence says. “It really ramped up in the second half of 2017, both OE [meaning original equipment sold to bike brands] and aftermarket. We have not been able to meet demand for Dura-Ace and Ultegra hydraulics. There is a good chance we will see disc eclipse rim brake in total sales in 2018.”
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Old 07-18-21, 07:30 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
You missed the period when both were available and buyers decided that both didn't need to be available.
You might be right, but that period was pretty brief. I bought a bike with road BB7's in 2012, which was fairly early on for road disks. Nearly all road bikes had rim brakes at that time. Pretty sure hydraulic road disks were a year or two later. I didn't love the mechanical disks, and thought the hydraulic levers were hideous looking, so the next couple of bikes I built for myself had rim brakes. In 2017 I was shopping for an entry level road bike for my wife, and everything at the 105 level was mechanical disk. She would have preferred rim brakes for the type of riding she does, but it was simply not available as a complete bike. We would have had to either build a bike or gone down to super low entry-level. It seemed more like marketing than consumer demand to me, but I'm not in the bike business so I don't really know. Probably some combination of both which is how fashion works.
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Old 07-18-21, 08:11 AM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by kingston
You might be right, but that period was pretty brief. I bought a bike with road BB7's in 2012, which was fairly early on for road disks. Nearly all road bikes had rim brakes at that time. Pretty sure hydraulic road disks were a year or two later. I didn't love the mechanical disks, and thought the hydraulic levers were hideous looking, so the next couple of bikes I built for myself had rim brakes. In 2017 I was shopping for an entry level road bike for my wife, and everything at the 105 level was mechanical disk. She would have preferred rim brakes for the type of riding she does, but it was simply not available as a complete bike. We would have had to either build a bike or gone down to super low entry-level. It seemed more like marketing than consumer demand to me, but I'm not in the bike business so I don't really know. Probably some combination of both which is how fashion works.
It is interesting that in a fairly short amount of time disk brakes went from hell-no, heavy, clunky and complicated to hell-yes, absolutely essential. I've never tried disk brakes so I can not compare them to my current Tektro rim brakes, but I do not feel the desire to change. My basic rim brakes stop my bike just fine.
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Old 07-18-21, 08:12 AM
  #160  
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As a side note, my wife only rides a few hundred miles a year and never in the rain so her BB7s have been 100% maintenance free, which I suspect is the case with a lot of people who like their disk brakes.
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Old 07-18-21, 08:18 AM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
How many miles do pads last on disc brakes?

I had some on a bike and seemed like every two weeks, I needed new pads.
I get about 12,000 miles out of a pair. And I'm a big guy.
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Old 07-18-21, 08:19 AM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson
It is interesting that in a fairly short amount of time disk brakes went from hell-no, heavy, clunky and complicated to hell-yes, absolutely essential. I've never tried disk brakes so I can not compare them to my current Tektro rim brakes, but I do not feel the desire to change. My basic rim brakes stop my bike just fine.
Who advocates that disc brakes are absolutely essential?
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Old 07-18-21, 08:25 AM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Who advocates that disc brakes are absolutely essential?
Well, the OEMs who don't even make bikes without them any more. Then every rider on the TdF has them. It is definitely part of the standard kit now. It's not a criticism of the product, but they are fairly ubiquitous now and rim brakes are virtually non-existent. 10 years ago the road cycling community absolutely hated them.
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Old 07-18-21, 08:34 AM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson
Well, the OEMs who don't even make bikes without them any more. Then every rider on the TdF has them. It is definitely part of the standard kit now. It's not a criticism of the product, but they are fairly ubiquitous now and rim brakes are virtually non-existent. 10 years ago the road cycling community absolutely hated them.
You didn't answer the question. Who advocates that disc brakes are absolutely essential? The OEMs are just producing what the public wants to buy, and the riders in the TdF have to ride bikes that are available to the public.
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Old 07-18-21, 08:42 AM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson
Of course they can make them smaller and lighter. That's why it would be the next evolution.
Maybe some advanced materials will make parts lighter, but smaller is a problem. Vented rotors? Maybe,, but not smaller. You can't change heat and getting rid of heat is an issue when things get smaller. Just look at high performance motorcycle or even car brakes. Massive is the key and weight is saved with materials, not size.

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Old 07-18-21, 08:42 AM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson
That may be true, but if they work as advertised, why do they need to continue to evolve?
Because evolution and development create customer interest, customer interest inspires demand, and demand influences spec.

Originally Posted by pgjackson
What is fundamentally insufficient about rim brakes? They worked perfectly for decades at the highest levels of competition and are simple enough to put on cheap bikes of all varieties.
You seem to be under the impression that there are "sides" to be taken here, or that I'm debating which brake is better. My one and only point remains that, for better or worse, the bicycle industry is done with rim brakes, and for that to change, rim brakes will need to be re-vamped in order to compete. That isn't happening.

But to reiterate: rim brakes will always be available and bikes that accept them will continue to be made, just like with coaster brakes, 26" wheels, and quill stems. They probably won't be the bikes you want to buy, however.

Originally Posted by pgjackson
Maybe the next evolution in brakes will simply be smaller and lighter disk brakes. That really is the next logical step.
Could be. And different pad materials, electronics, heat dissipation, etc. Point is, that's where the R&D budgets are being spent; not on rim brakes.

Last edited by Rolla; 07-18-21 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 07-18-21, 08:47 AM
  #167  
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For downhill mountain bikes, bigger rotors and 4 piston calipers are the way to better stopping power.
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Old 07-18-21, 08:48 AM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
You didn't answer the question. Who advocates that disc brakes are absolutely essential? The OEMs are just producing what the public wants to buy, and the riders in the TdF have to ride bikes that are available to the public.
The OEMs are saying it's essential because that's pretty much all they offer now. Bikes must have brakes. At some point they all switched from rim brakes to disk brakes. You can hardly find bikes with rim brakes any more. The OEMs clearly believe it is a superior, essential product. Maybe they are just following the public demand....but not long ago the cycling community was strongly against them. Somehow opinion changed. Was it marketing, real-world performance, something else? I don't know, but they have become an essential component on a modern road bike.
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Old 07-18-21, 08:51 AM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson
They worked perfectly for decades .
I'm ok with rim brakes most of the time on road bikes but I beg to differ with this opinion.
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Old 07-18-21, 08:52 AM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson
The OEMs are saying it's essential because that's pretty much all they offer now. Bikes must have brakes. At some point they all switched from rim brakes to disk brakes. You can hardly find bikes with rim brakes any more. The OEMs clearly believe it is a superior, essential product. Maybe they are just following the public demand....but not long ago the cycling community was strongly against them. Somehow opinion changed. Was it marketing, real-world performance, something else? I don't know, but they have become an essential component on a modern road bike.
When was the cycling community strongly against disc brakes?
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Old 07-18-21, 08:57 AM
  #171  
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Are we seeing a similar movement by the industry to tubeless? For road cycles, were they naturally selling that much more, that now it's already very difficult to get a non-TLR rim/wheelset?
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Old 07-18-21, 09:00 AM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
When was the cycling community strongly against disc brakes?
When they first started showing up on cyclocross bikes. I joined this forum in 2010. It was a pretty hotly discussed item back then. They were not popular in the road group.
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Old 07-18-21, 09:18 AM
  #173  
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My primary bike is rim brake, I wish it was disc, if it were I’d feel a lot more comfortable riding in the rain vs with rim brake carbon clinchers.
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Old 07-18-21, 09:32 AM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by kingston
The internet and seven-time grand tour winner Chris Froome who is paid to ride a bike with disk brakes and has a team of mechanics who still can't keep them from rubbing and squealing. That's it. Just those two.
That's right, just hang on to Froome's every word and totally ignore the positive attributes he also mentioned - like their actual braking performance. The important thing for me is that MY disc brakes don't rub or squeal. So Froome's problem isn't MY problem. It's pretty simple really.
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Old 07-18-21, 09:35 AM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson
When they first started showing up on cyclocross bikes. I joined this forum in 2010. It was a pretty hotly discussed item back then. They were not popular in the road group.
1. The present discussion is about road bikes, not cyclocross bikes. Even before disc brakes, cyclocross brakes used different brakes than road bikes.
2. The people on this forum are not representative of the general bike-buying population. Many are very set in their ways, and they are very vocal about it.
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