Misaligned Rear Wheel. Frame/Dropout issue?
#26
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I own a bike with very sloppy dropouts on the rear. To align the back wheel I need to flip the bike up side down and hold the wheel in position while tightening the QR. Else it all misaligned. It does stay put tho, so not a big deal, just a minor annoyance that points to sloppy manufacturing and engineering.
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In a manor of function the trued and dished wheel acts as the gage. No need to do any other measure to see if the wheel sits off plane WRT the front triangle. One's eyes can see the gaps and overlaps that frame alignment works with. Of course knowing how to interpret what you see...
Before I would consider filing anything I would want to do a full frame alignment lookover. I will not be surprised if there's other issues elsewhere. But this means a rather deep breakdown of the bike to pretty much just the frame and separate fork, not something many will want to do. So I also won't be surprised if the OP only deals with the rear end. I hope this is enough change to make the bike handle/track better enough. Andy
Before I would consider filing anything I would want to do a full frame alignment lookover. I will not be surprised if there's other issues elsewhere. But this means a rather deep breakdown of the bike to pretty much just the frame and separate fork, not something many will want to do. So I also won't be surprised if the OP only deals with the rear end. I hope this is enough change to make the bike handle/track better enough. Andy
#28
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I crawled up in the attic and located the 700c rear wheel spaced at 126mm (actually measured 127). It started life on a 1991 Cannondale from the same lbs and was a frame/fork build they performed. The wheel is straight and true but I think the dish is a little off (maybe 2 mm; I don't have the dishing tool/gauge). Flipping it in the dropouts and dealing with 2 variables is too much for this pea brain. So I went back to the original 27" slightly out of true wheel. To be consistent I did all the measurement/comparison at the air valve. I get results that are identical. The rim is to the left at the chain and seat stays when in correctly or when flipped. It is greater at the chain stay. I'm not sure what to make of this. I've owned mine since new and it has never been crashed or dropped. I upgraded to 7 spd index shifting and it worked well. Both bikes are Schwinn Voyageurs but they are different years and have different geometries. The '88: Wheelbase 42.25", HT angle 72, ST angle 74. My '89: Wheelbase 41.3", HT angle 72.5, ST angle 72.5. I can't find any other measurements. Is this coincidence or manufacturer error?
#30
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An update:
After contacting several more bike shops, most of which did not want to take on frame repair work, I found one that would—Harvest Cyclery in Brooklyn. When I brought the bike in, they were pretty confident they could straighten the frame out. I also asked them to remove pedals which were rusted and seized on when I got the bike, that I had been struggling to get off. Two days later they called and said both were done. When I got there it looked pretty straight! I also measured with calipers when I got it back home, and it is equal. And most importantly, I took it for a ride, and it rides straight now.
The guy I left the bike with, who was the one who performed the repair, was not working when I picked it up, so I didn't get to talk about the details of the operation. But from what I could gather from our original conversation, my string test might have been off, and assuming his first impression diagnosis was confirmed, he was going to bend the stays slightly.
Anyway, I'm pretty happy to have this bike on the road.
After contacting several more bike shops, most of which did not want to take on frame repair work, I found one that would—Harvest Cyclery in Brooklyn. When I brought the bike in, they were pretty confident they could straighten the frame out. I also asked them to remove pedals which were rusted and seized on when I got the bike, that I had been struggling to get off. Two days later they called and said both were done. When I got there it looked pretty straight! I also measured with calipers when I got it back home, and it is equal. And most importantly, I took it for a ride, and it rides straight now.
The guy I left the bike with, who was the one who performed the repair, was not working when I picked it up, so I didn't get to talk about the details of the operation. But from what I could gather from our original conversation, my string test might have been off, and assuming his first impression diagnosis was confirmed, he was going to bend the stays slightly.
Anyway, I'm pretty happy to have this bike on the road.
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The wheel is centered at the brake bridge but cocked to the left at the bottom bracket. That means something whacked the bottom bracket area of the bike from the left or the rear triangle near the axle from the right. Most shops will do "easy" frame alignments like spreading stays or squaring up dropouts, but fixing this requires a degree of skill and torque. Generally, shops don't have that kind of expertise, and the boutique shops don't do enough work on steel to maintain that kind of expertise. To make it worse, it's a Schwinn Voyageur, which hardly justifies stripping the bike to a bare frame and shipping it to Richard Sachs.
If your neighborhood doesn't have an old race-oriented shop who has amechanic who still knows how to align frames, and since it is just a Schwinn Voyageur, my suggestion is this. Remove the wheels, cranks, and bottom bracket. Support the rear dropouts by inserting an old hub of the proper spacing. Lay the bike on its left side, supporting it with wood blocks at the seat lug and head tube. With a friend standing on the seat lug, jump up and down on the bottom bracket and see what happens.
Disclaimer: If this were a vintage Cinelli, I'd be sending it to Richard Sachs.
If your neighborhood doesn't have an old race-oriented shop who has amechanic who still knows how to align frames, and since it is just a Schwinn Voyageur, my suggestion is this. Remove the wheels, cranks, and bottom bracket. Support the rear dropouts by inserting an old hub of the proper spacing. Lay the bike on its left side, supporting it with wood blocks at the seat lug and head tube. With a friend standing on the seat lug, jump up and down on the bottom bracket and see what happens.
Disclaimer: If this were a vintage Cinelli, I'd be sending it to Richard Sachs.
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For the benefit of all others who may land on this thread in the future, it would be great to follow up with that mechanic and relate what they did! 😉
#33
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I followed up, and indeed the stays were out of alignment laterally. My original string test was inaccurate. So they secured the frame and gently bent the stays back into place.
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"The wheel is centered at the brake bridge but cocked to the left at the bottom bracket. That means something whacked the bottom bracket area of the bike from the left or the rear triangle near the axle from the right" oldbobcat
What you suggest, an impact that moved the BB (and thus bent the 4 tubes attached to the BB) is far less likely then the frame being built with one chainstay longer then the other.
The OP's final posts have said what I have tried to describe here and in other threads about frame alignment. Knowing how to measure and then what to do to correct is key. A bicycle being ridden is a very complex system. Many parts of this system can, and often does, contribute how the system goes down the road. It is rare that I have found only one issue when dealing with frame alignment or steering/stability issues. This is not to say that correcting what you can understand is wrong, quite the opposite. Just that there's more to alignment then having the rear triangle centered WRT the main triangle, even keeping within the frame only (and disregarding any fork or rider aspects).
I would liked to have had this bike in front of me so I could apply my experience. But as this is a fake world we communicate through (the interweb is all bark with zero bite) all we can offer is barking. Andy
What you suggest, an impact that moved the BB (and thus bent the 4 tubes attached to the BB) is far less likely then the frame being built with one chainstay longer then the other.
The OP's final posts have said what I have tried to describe here and in other threads about frame alignment. Knowing how to measure and then what to do to correct is key. A bicycle being ridden is a very complex system. Many parts of this system can, and often does, contribute how the system goes down the road. It is rare that I have found only one issue when dealing with frame alignment or steering/stability issues. This is not to say that correcting what you can understand is wrong, quite the opposite. Just that there's more to alignment then having the rear triangle centered WRT the main triangle, even keeping within the frame only (and disregarding any fork or rider aspects).
I would liked to have had this bike in front of me so I could apply my experience. But as this is a fake world we communicate through (the interweb is all bark with zero bite) all we can offer is barking. Andy
#35
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Any competent frame builder would be able to cold set the frame if the stays or dropouts are out of alignment. You’d have to decide if the cost is worth it. Shops rarely do this and I’d be cautious of ones that are willing to (it might work out, it might not). As mentioned above, it is best to eliminate wheel dish or some crazy issue with an axle.