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Removing French BB fixed cup

Old 06-29-21, 12:12 PM
  #76  
Doug Fattic 
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There are proper tools to remove classic era fixed cups and many LB stores won't have them unless they have been in business a very long time. Who is most likely to have them are frame builders and painters - especially if they do both. In the northwest Indiana and southwest Michigan area, bikes stores call me up or have their customers come to me for these tasks. Here is a picture of the superbly designed Campagnolo fixed cup removal tool. The way it works is that the insert goes over the fixed cup while the threaded piece goes into the BB hole. The nut screws onto the threads and holds the insert tight so it won't slip off. The hole in the back of the "nut' is for sticking something through and using leverage to tighten the nut very securely to the handle. This means there is no chance the insert can slip off. Campy also makes a cheater tube to lengthen the handle for more leakage. However the back of the handle has 2 long flats that can sit in a bench vise. This allows for the use of the whole frame to act as a very long lever to loosen the cup. Unless the cup as been brazed in, it will turn.

The 2nd picture shows the Campy fixed cup removal tool in action. I used an Ellis Briggs International frame for my example. I learned at EB in the 70's. I won't ever repaint this one because it is the original finish. They did painting there as well so I learned both. The International was their top model in the 50's. Blank lugs were shaped with a punch press that had 17 different dies. It was a pretty clever set up. I continuously give thanks that I was able to learn there.


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Old 06-29-21, 12:26 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...FWIW in your future endeavors, when you already know that you are going to strip and refinish a frame, and you want to pull the fixed cup that is really stuck in there, A Mapp gas or other torch used to heat it up just about to where the paint is starting to blister, followed by hitting it with Freeze Off, in several repeating cycles, usually works wonders. I'm sooorory I did not suggest that to you earlier.

It's not used more because people are trying t o save the paint. But even at lower heats, it often will free up a stuck cup.
My LBS, who as I've stated is a very trusted mechanic with a few years on the TDF, was very much against heating a lug brazed frame. I've done plumbing copper and a little other work with heat and metal and agreed with him to not mess with heat. We were successful with canola oil soak, the "Sheldon Brown tool", and a secured spanner that could not slip off the faces, and elbow grease.
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Old 06-29-21, 12:28 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
There are proper tools to remove classic era fixed cups and many LB stores won't have them unless they have been in business a very long time. Who is most likely to have them are frame builders and painters - especially if they do both. In the northwest Indiana and southwest Michigan area, bikes stores call me up or have their customers come to me for these tasks. Here is a picture of the superbly designed Campagnolo fixed cup removal tool. The way it works is that the insert goes over the fixed cup while the threaded piece goes into the BB hole. The nut screws onto the threads and holds the insert tight so it won't slip off. The hole in the back of the "nut' is for sticking something through and using leverage to tighten the nut very securely to the handle. This means there is no chance the insert can slip off. Campy also makes a cheater tube to lengthen the handle for more leakage. However the back of the handle has 2 long flats that can sit in a bench vise. This allows for the use of the whole frame to act as a very long lever to loosen the cup. Unless the cup as been brazed in, it will turn.

The 2nd picture shows the Campy fixed cup removal tool in action. I used an Ellis Briggs International frame for my example. I learned at EB in the 70's. I won't ever repaint this one because it is the original finish. They did painting there as well so I learned both. The International was their top model in the 50's. Blank lugs were shaped with a punch press that had 17 different dies. It was a pretty clever set up. I continuously give thanks that I was able to learn there.


Yeah my LBS knows of these tools and said he's always on the lookout to buy them for various bb just to have them in his kit.
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Old 06-29-21, 12:45 PM
  #79  
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@TullySteve -
In my case, I did not heat the frame but the center of the assembly allowing the heat to conduct through the cup to the threads. It did not get hot enough to cause a color change in the steel. Sounds a bit defensive but I had nothing to loose and felt I did not have any other option at the time, 11 years ago.

Love the Campagnolo tools along with other marques. The hot oil was a good approach too. Did you just fill the cup or did it run into the tubes too?
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Old 06-29-21, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SJX426
@TullySteve -
In my case, I did not heat the frame but the center of the assembly allowing the heat to conduct through the cup to the threads. It did not get hot enough to cause a color change in the steel. Sounds a bit defensive but I had nothing to loose and felt I did not have any other option at the time, 11 years ago.

Love the Campagnolo tools along with other marques. The hot oil was a good approach too. Did you just fill the cup or did it run into the tubes too?
I sanded down a wine cork to plug the spindle hole, then set up the frame on its side pitched down to make the bb shell the low point, and poured in about 1/2 cup. Some made it up the tubes but mostly stayed in the bb shell. I had it well cleaned up before bringing it to the LBS and when he was able to crack it open we could see and smell the canola, so it did work in there.
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Old 06-29-21, 12:58 PM
  #81  
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So, the Campagnolo tool is basically a professional-grade version of Sheldon Brown's tool, working by high compression on both sides of the flange of the fixed cup, and using friction only on the cup, not keying of any sort like a bolt or nut -- right?

Nice frame; about what year is it? Is that an Alatet headset or something else?
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Old 06-29-21, 01:31 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by SJX426
@TullySteve -
In my case, I did not heat the frame but the center of the assembly allowing the heat to conduct through the cup to the threads. It did not get hot enough to cause a color change in the steel. Sounds a bit defensive but I had nothing to loose and felt I did not have any other option at the time, 11 years ago.

Love the Campagnolo tools along with other marques. The hot oil was a good approach too. Did you just fill the cup or did it run into the tubes too?
That is a really brilliant way to indirectly add a modest amount of heat to the immovable cup. I'm going to have to remember that trick!
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Old 06-29-21, 01:53 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
There are proper tools to remove classic era fixed cups and many LB stores won't have them unless they have been in business a very long time. Who is most likely to have them are frame builders and painters - especially if they do both. In the northwest Indiana and southwest Michigan area, bikes stores call me up or have their customers come to me for these tasks. Here is a picture of the superbly designed Campagnolo fixed cup removal tool. The way it works is that the insert goes over the fixed cup while the threaded piece goes into the BB hole. The nut screws onto the threads and holds the insert tight so it won't slip off. The hole in the back of the "nut' is for sticking something through and using leverage to tighten the nut very securely to the handle. This means there is no chance the insert can slip off. Campy also makes a cheater tube to lengthen the handle for more leakage. However the back of the handle has 2 long flats that can sit in a bench vise. This allows for the use of the whole frame to act as a very long lever to loosen the cup. Unless the cup as been brazed in, it will turn.

The 2nd picture shows the Campy fixed cup removal tool in action. I used an Ellis Briggs International frame for my example. I learned at EB in the 70's. I won't ever repaint this one because it is the original finish. They did painting there as well so I learned both. The International was their top model in the 50's. Blank lugs were shaped with a punch press that had 17 different dies. It was a pretty clever set up. I continuously give thanks that I was able to learn there.


I have a friend who is a tool & die guy, he's going to make me a custom 8-sided spanner to fit this Stronglight cup before I have to reinstall it. I'll have to inscribe the handle to make sure my heirs pass it along with the one bike it will fit!
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Old 06-29-21, 02:06 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by TullySteve
I have a friend who is a tool & die guy, he's going to make me a custom 8-sided spanner to fit this Stronglight cup before I have to reinstall it. I'll have to inscribe the handle to make sure my heirs pass it along with the one bike it will fit!
Any chance you can get him to do a batch?

Count me in if so, $$$ support if need be.

Last edited by merziac; 06-29-21 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 06-29-21, 03:08 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
So, the Campagnolo tool is basically a professional-grade version of Sheldon Brown's tool, working by high compression on both sides of the flange of the fixed cup, and using friction only on the cup, not keying of any sort like a bolt or nut -- right?
You made me look at Sheldon's method The Campy tool does squeeze the cup very tight (especially if you tighten them hard together) but the hardened insert of the tool fits over the flats on the cup. I'll post a more close up picture below so you can see better how the tool fits over the cup and the flats of the tool match the flats on the cup. So 2 removing methods are in play with the Campy too.

Nice frame; about what year is it? Is that an Alatet headset or something else?
I'm not sure what year it is. Paul Gibson bought Ellis Briggs from the grandsons of one of the founders Tom Briggs. The 2 founders were brothers-in-law. I learned from Jack Briggs the son of Tom. I mostly worked in the frame shop with Andrew who was the journeyman builder that Jack had taught a year or so before I came. Unfortunately around the time Paul bought EB (he had worked there for years) Andrew died. Paul then came to the States to take my class to augment what he had already learned from Andrew. This is just a long winded way of saying I don't like to bother Paul until the off season with questions although I am sure he wouldn't mind. Most fancier frames were made between 1949 and 1953. 1953 was when the petrol rationing stopped and richer people could now afford to buy and drive cars.

I have no idea what kind of headset it is and would love for someone to tell me!
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Old 06-29-21, 03:49 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
So, the Campagnolo tool is basically a professional-grade version of Sheldon Brown's tool, working by high compression on both sides of the flange of the fixed cup, and using friction only on the cup, not keying of any sort like a bolt or nut -- right?
No, the Campagnolo tool is more like the VAR-30 tool, but unlike VAR's choice of three different double-sided jaws to fit a variety of cup styles, Campagnolo's only fit cups that followed the Campagnolo design: two flats, 36mm apart. Granted, that covered a large number of cups from a variety of other manufacturers, but as we see here, there are exceptions the Campagnolo tool won't natively handle.

Unlike the Sheldon Brown tool, neither the VAR-30 or the Campagnolo 793/A relies on friction; the pieces that thread together only need be tight enough to prevent the jaw from slipping when torque is applied. N.B., there were professional grade, friction-type fixed cup tools from Zeus, Kingsbridge, and perhaps others.
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Old 06-29-21, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by TullySteve
I have a friend who is a tool & die guy, he's going to make me a custom 8-sided spanner to fit this Stronglight cup before I have to reinstall it. I'll have to inscribe the handle to make sure my heirs pass it along with the one bike it will fit!
You don't actually need an octagonal jaw for it to work with the Stronglight fixed cup, as long as you can secure the jaw to the cup so that it doesn't slip. E.g., VAR's 30/2 jaw for their professional grade fixed cup tool only has two flats 38mm apart (actually 37.8 on one side and 38.1 on the other to allow for manufacturing variations).
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Old 06-29-21, 05:51 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
You made me look at Sheldon's method The Campy tool does squeeze the cup very tight (especially if you tighten them hard together) but the hardened insert of the tool fits over the flats on the cup. I'll post a more close up picture below so you can see better how the tool fits over the cup and the flats of the tool match the flats on the cup. So 2 removing methods are in play with the Campy too.
Ah, I missed the fact that the part fitting outside the cup has a recessed inner portion.

I was also going to remark in my earlier post that the frame didn't have the oil/grease fitting on top of the BB shell that many pre-60s frames do; but I see it's on the bottom of the shell. Well, I'd ride it!

Now to go buy a 38 mm wrench for when I need to remove the fixed cup from my Peugeot.

Thanks for your help and photos!

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Old 06-29-21, 06:34 PM
  #89  
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i'm wondering if there's a way to make a down and dirty DIY version of the campy / VAR fixed cup tool . if there's some hardware that could be put together that works similar (captures the fixed cup snug) with no chance of slipping
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Old 06-29-21, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
You don't actually need an octagonal jaw for it to work with the Stronglight fixed cup, as long as you can secure the jaw to the cup so that it doesn't slip. E.g., VAR's 30/2 jaw for their professional grade fixed cup tool only has two flats 38mm apart (actually 37.8 on one side and 38.1 on the other to allow for manufacturing variations).
I hear you, but since the rest of the setup will be hardware store bolts & washers like the Sheldon Brown tool, and it will be custom anyway, I like the idea of an 8-sided purpose built wrench to exactly match my cup!
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Old 06-29-21, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TullySteve
I hear you, but since the rest of the setup will be hardware store bolts & washers like the Sheldon Brown tool, and it will be custom anyway, I like the idea of an 8-sided purpose built wrench to exactly match my cup!
Another option would be to have your tool laser cut. I have my fixture laser cut and etched out of stainless steel as well as dropouts and just about ever other steel part we use in making our charity transportation bicycles in Ukraine. One of our translator's family is part owner of a laser cutting business. It is surprisingly affordable.

I don't know CAD and didn't take drafting in school. However I designed all the pieces on graph paper and the engineer at the company converted my drawings to CAD and then had them laser cut. The handle could be made to whatever length you wanted. 2 or more thicknesses could be bolted together for added strength. You can see in the "picture frame" of my jig, I have double thickness that bolt together to increase support and stability. in fact the several versions for different fixed cups could be made that bolted onto a longer handle. If you wanted to go crazy, they could be heat treated to increase durability. Of course the more you make, the cheaper each unit costs.
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Old 08-04-21, 01:21 PM
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spanner

For anyone who has followed or chimed in here: I have the bike back from powder coating (gorgeous) and found a local metal shop to make a purpose-built 8 sided spanner for not a lot of money. Even if it only gets used one time to put the bb cup back on, I will write in my will that this wrench has to go with the bike! IF ANYONE HERE WANTS ONE, he's going to charge me "$20-30" for one (I was ok with vague, a good guy) but much less if he makes multiples. So if anyone wants a purpose built spanner for the french bb (unique to 8-sided Stonglight?) I would be happy to get it, ship it and just recover actual costs. But let me know asap please so I can let him know. It will have plenty of meat around the 8 sides, and a handle that will fit inside a length of 3/4 inch pipe for leverage. You'll still have to rely on the Sheldon Brown hardware store solution to bolt it tight to the face, but the thickness will be nominal 1/8 inch so it will be a snug fit.
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Old 08-04-21, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TullySteve
For anyone who has followed or chimed in here: I have the bike back from powder coating (gorgeous) and found a local metal shop to make a purpose-built 8 sided spanner for not a lot of money. Even if it only gets used one time to put the bb cup back on, I will write in my will that this wrench has to go with the bike! IF ANYONE HERE WANTS ONE, he's going to charge me "$20-30" for one (I was ok with vague, a good guy) but much less if he makes multiples. So if anyone wants a purpose built spanner for the french bb (unique to 8-sided Stonglight?) I would be happy to get it, ship it and just recover actual costs. But let me know asap please so I can let him know. It will have plenty of meat around the 8 sides, and a handle that will fit inside a length of 3/4 inch pipe for leverage. You'll still have to rely on the Sheldon Brown hardware store solution to bolt it tight to the face, but the thickness will be nominal 1/8 inch so it will be a snug fit.
I'm in, PM coming.
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Old 08-04-21, 02:18 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
and the engineer at the company converted my drawings to CAD and then had them laser cut
Wow, where do you attach the steam engine and the leather belt?
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Old 08-04-21, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by TullySteve
For anyone who has followed or chimed in here: I have the bike back from powder coating (gorgeous) and found a local metal shop to make a purpose-built 8 sided spanner for not a lot of money. Even if it only gets used one time to put the bb cup back on, I will write in my will that this wrench has to go with the bike! IF ANYONE HERE WANTS ONE, he's going to charge me "$20-30" for one (I was ok with vague, a good guy) but much less if he makes multiples. So if anyone wants a purpose built spanner for the french bb (unique to 8-sided Stonglight?) I would be happy to get it, ship it and just recover actual costs. But let me know asap please so I can let him know. It will have plenty of meat around the 8 sides, and a handle that will fit inside a length of 3/4 inch pipe for leverage. You'll still have to rely on the Sheldon Brown hardware store solution to bolt it tight to the face, but the thickness will be nominal 1/8 inch so it will be a snug fit.
Originally Posted by merziac
I'm in, PM coming.
Ditto, I need this solution.
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Old 08-04-21, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by johnnyace
Ditto, I need this solution.
Yep, can't remember whether I used a fit-all(Cresent) or found a close enough something to use with my sandwich method but this should be the be all, end all with an 8 sided box end to clamp on the cup and get after it.
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Old 08-04-21, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by brooklyn_bike
i'm wondering if there's a way to make a down and dirty DIY version of the campy / VAR fixed cup tool . if there's some hardware that could be put together that works similar (captures the fixed cup snug) with no chance of slipping
There is, I have a foolproof method that has never failed or damaged any frames, parts, tools or flesh, ever, period.

It requires a sound, tough wrench as the centerpiece but the rest is very simple everyday stuff you may already have, if not HD is your friend.
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Old 08-05-21, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by merziac
There is, I have a foolproof method that has never failed or damaged any frames, parts, tools or flesh, ever, period.

It requires a sound, tough wrench as the centerpiece but the rest is very simple everyday stuff you may already have, if not HD is your friend.
This latest post reminded me that I finally got to inspect that 1-1/2" twelve-point socket that I've used on my toughest Stronglight fixed cup removals.
You had asked about grinding off the entrance bevel/countersink, and I finally looked at it this week.
It seems that the tool's previous owner used this tool on a very low-profile bolt head, since the wear marks extended barely 5/16" into the "jaws" (visible in my photo), and it looks like they also ground down the face of the socket as well, eliminating most of the entry bevel. The benefits of buying used tools!
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