Removing French BB fixed cup
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Removing French BB fixed cup
More on my Moto Grand Record project. I'm down to the BB. Removed the retainer ring & adjustable cup just fine. I thought the Park HCW-4 wrench would work on the drive side, but it is about 2 mm small. (The tool is marked 36mm, the fixed cup flats measure about 38). The BB I believe is a Stronglight. I am 99.9% certain it would be RH threads both sides based on vintage, model, etc. But I don't like the purchase that a large adjustable wrench gives on the narrow fixed cup flats, and I have no doubt it has never been out, so it will be tight. Is there a specialized tool I am not aware of that would fit? Any recommended hacks? This is the last part before I can get the frame to the powder coater.
I just found an old thread about this very problem from 2008. And unfortunately there was no definitive answer! Yikes. The most promising solution suggested for removal was clamping the flats in a vise. I don't know about that. I'll wait to see if anyone has anything interesting.
I just found an old thread about this very problem from 2008. And unfortunately there was no definitive answer! Yikes. The most promising solution suggested for removal was clamping the flats in a vise. I don't know about that. I'll wait to see if anyone has anything interesting.
Last edited by TullySteve; 06-25-21 at 12:13 PM.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,064
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4482 Post(s)
Liked 6,256 Times
in
3,615 Posts
More on my Moto Grand Record project. I'm down to the BB. Removed the retainer ring & adjustable cup just fine. I thought the Park HCW-4 wrench would work on the drive side, but it is about 2 mm small. (The tool is marked 36mm, the fixed cup flats measure about 38). The BB I believe is a Stronglight. I am 99.9% certain it would be RH threads both sides based on vintage, model, etc. But I don't like the purchase that a large adjustable wrench gives on the narrow fixed cup flats, and I have no doubt it has never been out, so it will be tight. Is there a specialized tool I am not aware of that would fit? Any recommended hacks? This is the last part before I can get the frame to the powder coater.
I just found an old thread about this very problem from 2008. And unfortunately there was no definitive answer! Yikes. The most promising solution suggested for removal was clamping the flats in a vise. I don't know about that. I'll wait to see if anyone has anything interesting.
I just found an old thread about this very problem from 2008. And unfortunately there was no definitive answer! Yikes. The most promising solution suggested for removal was clamping the flats in a vise. I don't know about that. I'll wait to see if anyone has anything interesting.
This usually gets a discussion going with the debate about who's method is the best one.
Seems odd to me as I have never had a fixed cup that was not standard size, I have several wrenches but my go to is my Sugino that I have had for 45 years, it never fails me.
I have a foolproof process that never fails or damages any tools, parts, frames or flesh, period.
It requires a couple of things that are very common aside from a proper wrench.
The direction in the pics is off depending on direction you're going but with this it doesn't matter, if you're going the wrong way it will "crack" loose then you reverse direction and spin it off, easy, peasy.
Likes For merziac:
#3
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,627
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4660 Post(s)
Liked 5,741 Times
in
2,261 Posts
And here I thought that the proper method was just to ride the bike and wait for it to unscrew itself. I believe this is known informally as the @Andy_K method.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
Likes For gugie:
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,112
Mentioned: 479 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3780 Post(s)
Liked 6,528 Times
in
2,568 Posts
One of the oldest tools in my toolbox is one of those 36mm Park wrenches that I had to take a file to so that it would fit on a slightly oversized fixed cup, probably Stronglight. An alternative to not having that wrench is to use a bench vise to hold the flats and turn the frame, but you do need to figure out threading. Sutherlands has a chart on that:
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Greenwood SC USA
Posts: 2,340
Bikes: 2002 Mercian Vincitore, 1982 Mercian Colorado, 1976 Puch Royal X, 1973 Raleigh Competition, 1971 Gitane Tour de France and others
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 822 Post(s)
Liked 1,387 Times
in
690 Posts
I just use the large bolt, washers and nut with two wrenches as found buried on this page from Sheldon Brown. This is the method that worked for me on my Gitane TdF and on a very stuck Jeunet 630 BB.
#6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I just use the large bolt, washers and nut with two wrenches as found buried on this page from Sheldon Brown. This is the method that worked for me on my Gitane TdF and on a very stuck Jeunet 630 BB.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,064
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4482 Post(s)
Liked 6,256 Times
in
3,615 Posts
When it pinches out, the vise will likely have the last word by dinging or scratching the frame.
The bolt and washer method works well for the most part, make sure it is centered and that the washers don't get into the bearing track if you plan on using it again, they can also slip and gouge it as well.
I've seen this butcher some fairly valuable and hard to find cups.
Likes For merziac:
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Most vises that have lived a vise life will splay and not have good "purchase" with something clamped at the very top and will pinch it out under load. You can mitigate some of that by putting a spacer at the bottom of the jaws to keep them parallel.
When it pinches out, the vise will likely have the last word by dinging or scratching the frame.
The bolt and washer method works well for the most part, make sure it is centered and that the washers don't get into the bearing track if you plan on using it again, they can also slip and gouge it as well.
I've seen this butcher some fairly valuable and hard to find cups.
When it pinches out, the vise will likely have the last word by dinging or scratching the frame.
The bolt and washer method works well for the most part, make sure it is centered and that the washers don't get into the bearing track if you plan on using it again, they can also slip and gouge it as well.
I've seen this butcher some fairly valuable and hard to find cups.
#9
Disraeli Gears
Do try to identify (rings, knurling, text; see Sutherland's above) the thread of the fixed cup before starting with heavy-duty tools -- Motobécanes were sold using both French (right-hand thread) and Swiss (left-hand) and maybe even English, though that might be Peugeot. Definitely both French and Swiss. If you've removed spindle and left cup, and cleaned the BB reasonably, you may be able to identify threading with a bright light. Photo might help too.
And if using the bench vise, double-check the direction you're turning before really leaning into it.
And if using the bench vise, double-check the direction you're turning before really leaning into it.
Last edited by Charles Wahl; 06-25-21 at 02:13 PM.
Likes For Charles Wahl:
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
And here I thought that the proper method was just to ride the bike and wait for it to unscrew itself. I believe this is known informally as the @Andy_K method.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,064
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4482 Post(s)
Liked 6,256 Times
in
3,615 Posts
Alright maybe this is a dumb question but here goes: Why would a RH thread (as on this BB) unscrew itself on the drive side? It screws in clockwise. You pedal forward clockwise. What am I missing? It seems the potential problem would be on the other side: pedal direction counter-clockwise, BB RH threads unscrew counter-clockwise.
#12
car dodger
The VAR BB tool has several "jaws" to fit different fixed cup styles, I guess one would fit yours. Maybe a lbs has one, if you don't mind not doing it yourself.
__________________
1989 Schwinn Paramount OS
1980 Mclean/Silk Hope Sport Touring
1983 Bianchi pista
1976 Fuji Feather track
1979 raleigh track
"I've consulted my sources and I'm pretty sure your derailleur does not exist"
1989 Schwinn Paramount OS
1980 Mclean/Silk Hope Sport Touring
1983 Bianchi pista
1976 Fuji Feather track
1979 raleigh track
"I've consulted my sources and I'm pretty sure your derailleur does not exist"
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,064
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4482 Post(s)
Liked 6,256 Times
in
3,615 Posts
Thanks good points. Not worried about scratching the frame, as it is a beater and getting it powder coated was half the motivation for this project. I don't want to ruin the cup. The races appear good looking in from the non drive side, and the surface chrome isn't bad either (especially compared to the bike!). Maybe I should consider leaving well enough alone and have the powder coat shop mask it off?
IMO it is part of a proper service, R+R cup, clean, inspect cup and BB threads, lube and torque to spec so it comes out for the next time.
#14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Do try to identify (rings, knurling, text; see Sutherland's above) the thread of the fixed cup before starting with heavy-duty tools -- Motobécanes were sold using both French (right-hand thread) and Swiss (left-hand) and maybe even English, though that might be Peugeot. Definitely both French and Swiss. If you've removed spindle and left cup, and cleaned the BB reasonably, you may be able to identify threading with a bright light. Photo might help too.
And if using the bench vise, double-check the direction you're turning before really leaning into it.
And if using the bench vise, double-check the direction you're turning before really leaning into it.
Drive side. 8 flats.
adjustable cup. 6 flats
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Would the marking on the drive side be "one ring", 8 sides?
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Big Apple
Posts: 1,632
Bikes: yes
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 510 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 401 Times
in
172 Posts
Alright maybe this is a dumb question but here goes: Why would a RH thread (as on this BB) unscrew itself on the drive side? It screws in clockwise. You pedal forward clockwise. What am I missing? It seems the potential problem would be on the other side: pedal direction counter-clockwise, BB RH threads unscrew counter-clockwise.
Likes For Vintage_Cyclist:
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,112
Mentioned: 479 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3780 Post(s)
Liked 6,528 Times
in
2,568 Posts
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 2,870
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1093 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,295 Times
in
765 Posts
Alright maybe this is a dumb question but here goes: Why would a RH thread (as on this BB) unscrew itself on the drive side? It screws in clockwise. You pedal forward clockwise. What am I missing? It seems the potential problem would be on the other side: pedal direction counter-clockwise, BB RH threads unscrew counter-clockwise.
Likes For oneclick:
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 2,870
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1093 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,295 Times
in
765 Posts
You need a large bolt & nut, and two appropriately sized stout washers. One washer goes inside the cup, the bolt goes through that, put the frame in the vice and clamp the flats. The bolt should hang down between the jaws, take the other washer (which is big enough to span the gap at the bottom) under the jaws and put the nut on and tighten it. This way you don't even need to tighten the vice as much - you're not using the clamping force of the vice jaws to hold the frame in place.
Likes For oneclick:
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
That spacer idea will only work if you have a spacer exactly the same size as the cup you're trying to grab - another cup would do, but there is a better way:
You need a large bolt & nut, and two appropriately sized stout washers. One washer goes inside the cup, the bolt goes through that, put the frame in the vice and clamp the flats. The bolt should hang down between the jaws, take the other washer (which is big enough to span the gap at the bottom) under the jaws and put the nut on and tighten it. This way you don't even need to tighten the vice as much - you're not using the clamping force of the vice jaws to hold the frame in place.
You need a large bolt & nut, and two appropriately sized stout washers. One washer goes inside the cup, the bolt goes through that, put the frame in the vice and clamp the flats. The bolt should hang down between the jaws, take the other washer (which is big enough to span the gap at the bottom) under the jaws and put the nut on and tighten it. This way you don't even need to tighten the vice as much - you're not using the clamping force of the vice jaws to hold the frame in place.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,064
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4482 Post(s)
Liked 6,256 Times
in
3,615 Posts
That spacer idea will only work if you have a spacer exactly the same size as the cup you're trying to grab - another cup would do, but there is a better way:
You need a large bolt & nut, and two appropriately sized stout washers. One washer goes inside the cup, the bolt goes through that, put the frame in the vice and clamp the flats. The bolt should hang down between the jaws, take the other washer (which is big enough to span the gap at the bottom) under the jaws and put the nut on and tighten it. This way you don't even need to tighten the vice as much - you're not using the clamping force of the vice jaws to hold the frame in place.
You need a large bolt & nut, and two appropriately sized stout washers. One washer goes inside the cup, the bolt goes through that, put the frame in the vice and clamp the flats. The bolt should hang down between the jaws, take the other washer (which is big enough to span the gap at the bottom) under the jaws and put the nut on and tighten it. This way you don't even need to tighten the vice as much - you're not using the clamping force of the vice jaws to hold the frame in place.
Been a mech/tech all my life, fomoco + ASE Senior Master tech for 25 years, 20+years drag racing motorcycles, lots of time spent wrangling and solving problems at work, home, on the road, track and everywhere in between.
Last edited by merziac; 06-25-21 at 03:34 PM.
#22
Senior Member
Thread Starter
In case I muck things up or otherwise cannot continue using the original BB: anyone have any experience with Velo Orange French threaded sealed cartridge? They claim it will work, although their spindle is JIS and my Stronglight crank is ISO. Sheldon Brown offers some advice on making a spindle length adjustment when mixing these standards.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 9,831
Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2296 Post(s)
Liked 2,710 Times
in
1,483 Posts
Alright maybe this is a dumb question but here goes: Why would a RH thread (as on this BB) unscrew itself on the drive side? It screws in clockwise. You pedal forward clockwise. What am I missing? It seems the potential problem would be on the other side: pedal direction counter-clockwise, BB RH threads unscrew counter-clockwise.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/left.html
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#24
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,627
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4660 Post(s)
Liked 5,741 Times
in
2,261 Posts
I try, really, I do try.
If you really want to laugh, follow my publicist's posts. Now THAT guy is funny. His grammar and spellling are much better than mine to boot.
If you really want to laugh, follow my publicist's posts. Now THAT guy is funny. His grammar and spellling are much better than mine to boot.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
Likes For gugie:
#25
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,167
Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.
Mentioned: 132 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1552 Post(s)
Liked 1,268 Times
in
843 Posts
The first time that I had to deal with a very tight eight-sided fixed cup I wondered why they increased the # of flats, which only serves to increase the local stress where the wrench applies force!, and which increases the tendency for the wrench to slip and round off the corners of the cup.
So I was going to make an eight-sided wrench from 1/8" flat stock.
I also wondered if by chance some standard size of twelve-pointed wrench or socket might just happen to engage the flats/corners really well.
I tried a 1-1/2" socket and got my answer!
I also tried a 1-7/16" size, which would not fit on the cup.
Anyway, this has been my go-to method ever since.
So I was going to make an eight-sided wrench from 1/8" flat stock.
I also wondered if by chance some standard size of twelve-pointed wrench or socket might just happen to engage the flats/corners really well.
I tried a 1-1/2" socket and got my answer!
I also tried a 1-7/16" size, which would not fit on the cup.
Anyway, this has been my go-to method ever since.