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Is spreading the rear triangle on a classic vintage frame taboo?

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Is spreading the rear triangle on a classic vintage frame taboo?

Old 08-02-22, 07:46 AM
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Is spreading the rear triangle on a classic vintage frame taboo?

I am thinking about building a new wheelset for my early 70s Cinelli SC. I usually prefer to keep things original, but I am no longer a fan of tubulars. So I am looking for options. First idea is Pacenti Brevet rims with SUNxcd hubs (as they are closest to Campagnolo hubs, yeah LF would be a better fit). Then comes the question; get the much rarer SUNxcd 125mm rear hub or widen the rear triangle and get the 130mm hub? It is also much easier to find casettes for the 130mm version.

How much wider will this be per side? (130-125)/2 = 2.5 mm wider per side. In other words: not much.

Plan B is to buy a vintage pair of Campagnolo Record low flange hubs 32H (semi modern) and pair them with Pacenti Brevet, H+Son TB14 or Mavic Module E2.

References
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Old 08-02-22, 08:36 AM
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I'm not about to state whether or not something is "right" or "wrong" on this topic. I'm not a frame builder, but I've also not been shy about spreading 126s (in one case a 120) to take 130s. I was going to come in saying that I'd hesitate to do that to a bicycle as nice as a Cinelli, but then I realized that I've done it to a Raleigh Team Professional (it not being in original paint when I got it gave me license to go a bit wild on the re-paint and the build). Never mind that there are cautions all over to not do this to a bike made with 753 tubing.

As I said, I'm not a frame builder, so I'll let them weigh in on the structural dangers involved, but as far as addressing the "how could you have done that to THAT bike?" aspect of the question, I think we all need to find our own answers. I personally wouldn't do this to a bicycle with historical significance, and I also wouldn't do this to a bicycle that I thought there was a realistic risk of ruining, but this seems to be a somewhat less fraught issue than the "preserve the patina vs repaint" question.
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Old 08-02-22, 08:43 AM
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I have spread a nishki from 126 to 135 no problems, using the sheldon 2x4 method

I had a shop that also builds frames spread a team Miyata from 126 to 130

ymmv
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Old 08-02-22, 08:44 AM
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What about just putting some new rims/tires on the existing hubs?

If the bike is already 126mm, you can open it up a little and the 130 will go in. If you're going to a rear freehub, you should go to something that will take a Shimano based/compatible cassette. More options for cassettes that way.

Edit: I read it as Suntour, not Suntour XCD. Ignore my Shimano freehub sentences.

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Old 08-02-22, 08:48 AM
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You can split the difference at 128 giving you options.
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Old 08-02-22, 09:12 AM
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I spread my Cinelli SC, no problem.
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Old 08-02-22, 09:31 AM
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I've been spreading frames for years, most of them are vintage frames going from 120 to 130mm. I'd make sure you have it done by someone who knows what they're doing, and will keep the rear wheel centered and dropout faces parallel.
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Old 08-02-22, 09:33 AM
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Be careful, but go for it. Make sure your dropouts are properly aligned when you're done. I used a couple pieces of threaded rod (with washers and nuts on both sides of each dropout) and went nice and slow frequently checking overall frame alignment with strings. Went a bit past 130, let it spring back in, checked alignment, put the threaded rod back in, went a bit further past, took it out, let it spring back, checked alignment again, and repeated until it sprang back to 130 on the frame I did. It was a mixte (and not something as fancy as a Cinelli) so an extra set of stays reinforcing the joint, but just go slow and careful and you should be fine.
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Old 08-02-22, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
I spread my Cinelli SC, no problem.
+1, except I had a pro with experience and the right tools do it. Mine was spread from 120mm to 130mm with no problems, and I can and do run my favorite Campy 10sp triple drivetrain.

I am not saying you should or should not do it - that's your call - but I am saying that it can be done safely if you have your heart set on wheels/drivetrain that require it. I will also say that I think you should make it a bike you will want to ride.
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Old 08-02-22, 09:42 AM
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Not taboo and whatever keeps you riding your bike. If you plan on selling it one day, I think 130 spacing might affect the value a little, maybe not though. Is your goal to put a more modern groupset, like 9+ speeds? If not, I’d go for 126.

Side note - a lot of people really like the TB14 rims and they do look good, but every racer style bike I’ve used them on has felt dead and “meh” until I switched to different wheelset.
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Old 08-02-22, 09:43 AM
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I wouldn't spread a bike *just* to use an easier-to-source wheelset. For my bikes, it would have to be a deliberate choice to go to more speeds (i.e. from 5 to 6/7, or from 6/7 to 8+.)
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Old 08-02-22, 09:52 AM
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I've had it done by a frame builder. Like others have said, personally I would avoid doing it on a bike with historical significance. Otherwise, it opens up a lot of component choices. The only "limitation" I found was that with short chainstays your chainline to the smallest cog is not going to be great. I had to run an 11t cog, since the 12t that I prefer in the first position rubbed against the chainstay. This was on a Batavus Professional.
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Old 08-02-22, 10:11 AM
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Personally, I'd go with your Plan B, which is exactly what I did with my '74 Cinelli SC. That said, it's your bike so do what you want...very carefully. You seem to be assuming that the OLD is 126mm. However, that seems unlikely. My Cinelli is 120mm; my understanding is that for most bike brands 126mm didn't come into common use until the late '70s and early '80s.
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Old 08-02-22, 10:28 AM
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I have cold set 2 frames: a Fuji Ace from 120 to 130, and an Ochsner roadie, Aelle tubing, 126 to 130. No problems with either. TBH, if either had not worked out, I may have been disappointed, but not upset. I am of the mindset that the bike is mine, I am going to do with it what pleases me, and what gives me a bike I really enjoy riding. Ergo, no more downtube shifters, or skinny wheels/tires, or old style road handlebars, etc. I have 2 bikes left with threaded headsets and quill stems. I do not ride them much, so, they will likely stay that way as long as I have them.
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Old 08-02-22, 10:33 AM
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Richard Sachs has written he has done it but only after kicking and screaming
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Old 08-02-22, 10:48 AM
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I am against doing anything to the frame that permanently alters it and I would not buy a frame that has been altered by a non-professional.
There are tons of 126mm options. What drivetrain do you plan to run?
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Old 08-02-22, 10:49 AM
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Did it 5 years ago from 126 to 130 and never looked back. Sheldon Brown method!
You can secure around the chain stay bridge to make sure it won't detach when you go to 150 or so
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Old 08-02-22, 11:15 AM
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I am a framebuilder that has spread rear triangles hundreds of times in my career. The process can be reversed if one wants to take it back to original specs. It is possible to do it yourself but I strongly advise against it. Most classic era built frames were not that well aligned coming from direct from the factory (except Japanese made frames). Even the very best frames were sold at modest prices that prevented perfectionistic building techniques.

I begin by chasing the treads and facing the face of the bottom bracket shell. The drive side face of the BB shell serves as my reference. Then I align the front triangle on my 3' X 4' cast iron very flat table with a surface gauge to check discrepancies and bend the errant tubes to my will. Often I have to use special holders to stabilize tubes that aren't being bent so they don't move. Now I am ready to spread the rear triangle. It is an unusual frame where the dropouts are already equidistant from the frames centerline. I have a special tool that has a V and steps that shows what needs to be bent so the dropouts are just a hair over 130 and equidistant from the center of the frame. This bending probably makes the dropout faces crooked on each other and they are now bent parallel with "H" tools. Next a dropout alignment tool is used to make sure the dropout hanger is also on the frame's centerline. This is a common source of shifting problems if it isn't right. Then a final check has to be done over the entire frame because bending one thing can move another.

And since the frame is already at a frame builder's shop, it only makes sense to have the fork aligned now as well.


tools to align a frame



using H tools to make the dropout faces parallel to each other


this tool aligns the dropout derailleur hanger.
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Old 08-02-22, 11:22 AM
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Does it become more taboo the longer it hasn't been done?
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Old 08-02-22, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Be careful, but go for it. Make sure your dropouts are properly aligned when you're done. I used a couple pieces of threaded rod (with washers and nuts on both sides of each dropout) and went nice and slow frequently checking overall frame alignment with strings. Went a bit past 130, let it spring back in, checked alignment, put the threaded rod back in, went a bit further past, took it out, let it spring back, checked alignment again, and repeated until it sprang back to 130 on the frame I did. It was a mixte (and not something as fancy as a Cinelli) so an extra set of stays reinforcing the joint, but just go slow and careful and you should be fine.
Wise words that apply to many things.
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Old 08-02-22, 12:23 PM
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Who's a "professional," and who's not?

Is a professional just a guy that works at a bike shop, and the non-professional is a dude that has rebuilt 100 bikes in his basement?

Is spreading a frame rocket science?
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Old 08-02-22, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Who's a "professional," and who's not?

Is a professional just a guy that works at a bike shop, and the non-professional is a dude that has rebuilt 100 bikes in his basement?

Is spreading a frame rocket science?
I would define a "professional" as someone that has the proper tools, knowledge and experience to do the job right. Look at the pictures in my post #18. There is a lot of expense in specialized equipment there. Amateurs are unlikely to have those tools unless they dabble in framebuilding. And even if you have the tools you have to use them properly. Bending a frame combines strength with a certain touch. You pull on the chain stays to widen them and they don't go and then you apply too much and it goes too far possibly damaging them. When you are experienced you get a feel for hard (but not too hard) to pull. If it is a dumpster find you won't care but if it is a 50 year old Cinelli you will care a lot.

If your main tool to spread dropouts is a 2X4, how do you insure your whole frame is still in alignment when you are finished? If you have indexed shifting, do you care that your derailleur is aligned in the dropout hanger so it shifts properly? If you dropouts are not exactly parallel to each other, do you care that when your QR clamps the wheel that the pressure puts a bind on your wheel bearings wearing them out sooner? How far out of alignment any aspect of the frame is before it is noticeable can be a matter of debate. I like all of mine to be spot on. Your standards may be different. By the way, Its going to be a very unusual bike shop that has the proper equipment to spread rear dropouts so everything is where it is supposed to be when done.
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Old 08-02-22, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
how do you insure your whole frame is still in alignment when you are finished?
With a string and a metric ruler.

do you care that your derailleur is aligned in the dropout hanger so it shifts properly?
Uh, yeah.

if you dropouts are not exactly parallel to each other...
Why wouldn't they be? You can make a simple tool with a threaded bolt, some nuts and washers.

Some make this out to be like it's some huge project. They say the same about building up a simple wheel. It's not rocket science.
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Old 08-02-22, 01:58 PM
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My main point being, I see no reason to spread the frame with all the available options at 126mm. If you want to run brifters- there are 7 speed brifters. You can run brifters with either a 7 speed freewheel or 7 speed HG cassette. Heck you could run 7 sp brifters with 6 speed Ultra-6 freewheels and 120mm spacing. If you want more than 7 speed, there is always 9 of 10 on 7, etc. If you must have Campy you could run Campy 8v with Shimano 7 speed cassette. If you just want a stronger freewheel rear hub you could change nothing else except change to a sealed bearing hub like Mavics or Phil Wood. If you already have a 130mm Shimano hub- chances are you could convert it to 126mm with a 7 speed hub body. Alternatively on the HG/UG hub you can just use the UG small cog to lock in the cassette on a 130mm body.

I just don't see a scenerio where 130mm is a must unless you just happen to have a 130mm hub wheel in front of you and you are too lazy to look for anything else. That is not a good reason to do anything.
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Old 08-02-22, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
With a string and a metric ruler.



Uh, yeah.



Why wouldn't they be? You can make a simple tool with a threaded bolt, some nuts and washers.

Some make this out to be like it's some huge project. They say the same about building up a simple wheel. It's not rocket science.
can be done with basic equipment but not 2x4 easy. Unless you are correct in the assumption that the frame is straight and true, seat tube not bowed. One has to understand the limits of the tolerance stack you have accepted.
I would never respace a frame without H tools.

a frame with a braze on front derailleur mount- just a situation asking to distort the tube.
Not a lot in general but 20mm of one side of the tube is being heated up to brazing temp and the other side not? Held between two points? There will be some movement.

what Mr Fattic is basically stating, know what you have in reference to a strong, reliable datum. So all can be reviewed before and after.

Last edited by repechage; 08-02-22 at 02:14 PM.
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