Custom bike, can't find a good position.
08-20-22, 03:27 PM
#26
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A cheap option -- provided the ST is short enough to allow you to get the correct saddle height -- would be a BMX/layback post such as this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/37420630582...Bk9SR5ix0tHXYA
https://www.ebay.com/itm/37420630582...Bk9SR5ix0tHXYA
08-20-22, 05:38 PM
#27
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So many complicated factors to this fit issue.
On the face of it, 76 degrees does sound quite steep and I usually recommend much slacker seat tube angles.
However, If you can position yourself to KOPS, and your not way in front of KOPS, then on paper, the builder has built the frame correctly, not withstanding that KOPS isn't the be all and end all of everything.
Now I don't want to be rude, but are you overweight?
Bicycles are just not comfortable, and they never will be for overweight riders. There always will be too much weight on your hands/arms/shoulders if you are overweight.
Catch 22 here I know.
A couple of suggestions. Set the seat back as far as you can and raise the handlebars significantly.
Something that's counterintuitive is that some people find it more comfortable to stretch out their reach to the bars rather than bringing the bars close when they feel like there is too much weight on their hands.
There's definitely a communication problem going on, and personally I would have asked a LOT of questions first before specifying a 76 degree seat tube angle, however if you achieve KOPS and aren't in front of KOPS, then the builder isn't necessarily wrong.
On the face of it, 76 degrees does sound quite steep and I usually recommend much slacker seat tube angles.
However, If you can position yourself to KOPS, and your not way in front of KOPS, then on paper, the builder has built the frame correctly, not withstanding that KOPS isn't the be all and end all of everything.
Now I don't want to be rude, but are you overweight?
Bicycles are just not comfortable, and they never will be for overweight riders. There always will be too much weight on your hands/arms/shoulders if you are overweight.
Catch 22 here I know.
A couple of suggestions. Set the seat back as far as you can and raise the handlebars significantly.
Something that's counterintuitive is that some people find it more comfortable to stretch out their reach to the bars rather than bringing the bars close when they feel like there is too much weight on their hands.
There's definitely a communication problem going on, and personally I would have asked a LOT of questions first before specifying a 76 degree seat tube angle, however if you achieve KOPS and aren't in front of KOPS, then the builder isn't necessarily wrong.
yes i can place my knee over paddle spindle, with an inline seatpost, but its not comfortable for me regardless the weight on my hands, its just feels not right.. i prefer to be further back.
im 6'1 and weighing 195 lbs.
thank you
08-20-22, 05:54 PM
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Try measuring the saddle nose setback from the BB and tell us what the number is?
At 195 lbs for your height you're not really that overweight but you're not skinny either. You're allowed to say that you're not happy with the outcome or the process, yet honestly, a custom frame is no magical process that will make anyone and everyone comfortable on a bicycle.
I was never that comfortable on my custom road bike either and I did have a significantly slacker seat tube angle to begin with (71 degrees). It wasn't till I was fitter and no more than 5kg (about 10 lbs) overweight that I STARTED to be comfortable on a road bike.
Last edited by AnthonyG; 08-20-22 at 06:01 PM.
08-21-22, 12:15 AM
#29
Banned.
Actually, there has been a trend in the last few years with MTB frames, even non-custom ones, being designed with 77-79 degree STA, so that may be what this builder was going by. I don't understand that concept either. (Believe the theory is that it allows you to climb very steep hills better.) I have a 91cm inseam, and if the tip of my saddle is less than 10cm behind the BB, not only does my speed/power drop sharply -- even up a steep hill -- but my thighs, knees, and hands start hurting, so I know, at least for me, those steep STAs are completely wrong.
The relevance of steep STA for offroad riding is to make it easier to position the butt behind the saddle during jumps when the saddle is slammed down (if using dropper post).
Below is picture of Trek 1120, an off-road touring bike.
It seems the STA is in fact very close to 76 degrees or probably the same (Line I drew over the seat tube is exactly 76 degrees). It would seem the frame builder might have done the right thing if the bike was intended to be ridden in a relatively upright position as picture at the bottom and if the bike is going to be ridden aggressively off road.
08-21-22, 09:00 AM
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It sure seems like a few photos would be useful.
08-21-22, 12:10 PM
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On a touring bike you usually want a relatively upright position which means a slack ST angle is best. 76° sounds far too steep. Your framebuilder should have discussed this with you and/or tried you on a fitting bike.
I don't think that KOPS business really means anything. It sounds very unscientific to me. It really doesn't matter what angle your legs are at with respect to the gravitational field-- you can ride an upright, a full recumbent or anything in between. It's all good. It's more about where your weight is and the posture of your body.
How to fix it? You could try a smaller wheel on the back. 26" on the back, 700c on the front will give you probably a few degrees. If necessary get a fork with more offset if the trail has gone up by too much (but it will probably be fine).
I don't think that KOPS business really means anything. It sounds very unscientific to me. It really doesn't matter what angle your legs are at with respect to the gravitational field-- you can ride an upright, a full recumbent or anything in between. It's all good. It's more about where your weight is and the posture of your body.
How to fix it? You could try a smaller wheel on the back. 26" on the back, 700c on the front will give you probably a few degrees. If necessary get a fork with more offset if the trail has gone up by too much (but it will probably be fine).
Last edited by guy153; 08-21-22 at 12:25 PM.
08-21-22, 07:35 PM
#32
Banned.
Anyway, KOPS does have merits backing it up. It seems to plant you near the threshold where your hip angle is at the highest possible and not make you feel like you're falling forward.
But you're right, it's not exact science. KOPS won't tolerate outliers in body proportions and the upper end of the BMI numbers and few other factors.
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08-22-22, 01:55 AM
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Yea, I also told OP to get longer fork. He doesn't seem to care about that solution maybe because the frame already accounts for offset or long travel suspension forks.
Anyway, KOPS does have merits backing it up. It seems to plant you near the threshold where your hip angle is at the highest possible and not make you feel like you're falling forward.
But you're right, it's not exact science. KOPS won't tolerate outliers in body proportions and the upper end of the BMI numbers and few other factors.
Anyway, KOPS does have merits backing it up. It seems to plant you near the threshold where your hip angle is at the highest possible and not make you feel like you're falling forward.
But you're right, it's not exact science. KOPS won't tolerate outliers in body proportions and the upper end of the BMI numbers and few other factors.
Another option would be to use the same fork but increase the headset lower stack height. This could be achieved by fabricating a spacer that basically extends the bottom of the HT by half an inch or so. You could make one fairly easily on a lathe. Make it press-fit like a normal headset cup. Doesn't need to be brazed or welded or anything.
08-23-22, 04:18 AM
#34
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On a touring bike you usually want a relatively upright position which means a slack ST angle is best. 76° sounds far too steep. Your framebuilder should have discussed this with you and/or tried you on a fitting bike.
I don't think that KOPS business really means anything. It sounds very unscientific to me. It really doesn't matter what angle your legs are at with respect to the gravitational field-- you can ride an upright, a full recumbent or anything in between. It's all good. It's more about where your weight is and the posture of your body.
How to fix it? You could try a smaller wheel on the back. 26" on the back, 700c on the front will give you probably a few degrees. If necessary get a fork with more offset if the trail has gone up by too much (but it will probably be fine).
I don't think that KOPS business really means anything. It sounds very unscientific to me. It really doesn't matter what angle your legs are at with respect to the gravitational field-- you can ride an upright, a full recumbent or anything in between. It's all good. It's more about where your weight is and the posture of your body.
How to fix it? You could try a smaller wheel on the back. 26" on the back, 700c on the front will give you probably a few degrees. If necessary get a fork with more offset if the trail has gone up by too much (but it will probably be fine).
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08-23-22, 04:20 AM
#35
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Yea, I also told OP to get longer fork. He doesn't seem to care about that solution maybe because the frame already accounts for offset or long travel suspension forks.
Anyway, KOPS does have merits backing it up. It seems to plant you near the threshold where your hip angle is at the highest possible and not make you feel like you're falling forward.
But you're right, it's not exact science. KOPS won't tolerate outliers in body proportions and the upper end of the BMI numbers and few other factors.
Anyway, KOPS does have merits backing it up. It seems to plant you near the threshold where your hip angle is at the highest possible and not make you feel like you're falling forward.
But you're right, it's not exact science. KOPS won't tolerate outliers in body proportions and the upper end of the BMI numbers and few other factors.
thank you
08-23-22, 04:21 AM
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Steeper STA does makes climbing easier for many riders, including myself, one GCN presenter, as well as many pro cyclists. I know there are exceptions but you can see, not everyone is the same but considering how bikes are designed, most performance-oriented riders would make more power or climb faster with steeper STA.
The relevance of steep STA for offroad riding is to make it easier to position the butt behind the saddle during jumps when the saddle is slammed down (if using dropper post).
Below is picture of Trek 1120, an off-road touring bike.
It seems the STA is in fact very close to 76 degrees or probably the same (Line I drew over the seat tube is exactly 76 degrees). It would seem the frame builder might have done the right thing if the bike was intended to be ridden in a relatively upright position as picture at the bottom and if the bike is going to be ridden aggressively off road.
The relevance of steep STA for offroad riding is to make it easier to position the butt behind the saddle during jumps when the saddle is slammed down (if using dropper post).
Below is picture of Trek 1120, an off-road touring bike.
It seems the STA is in fact very close to 76 degrees or probably the same (Line I drew over the seat tube is exactly 76 degrees). It would seem the frame builder might have done the right thing if the bike was intended to be ridden in a relatively upright position as picture at the bottom and if the bike is going to be ridden aggressively off road.
thank you
08-23-22, 04:23 AM
#37
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OK, so you're definitely NOT in front of KOPS?
Try measuring the saddle nose setback from the BB and tell us what the number is?
At 195 lbs for your height you're not really that overweight but you're not skinny either. You're allowed to say that you're not happy with the outcome or the process, yet honestly, a custom frame is no magical process that will make anyone and everyone comfortable on a bicycle.
I was never that comfortable on my custom road bike either and I did have a significantly slacker seat tube angle to begin with (71 degrees). It wasn't till I was fitter and no more than 5kg (about 10 lbs) overweight that I STARTED to be comfortable on a road bike.
Try measuring the saddle nose setback from the BB and tell us what the number is?
At 195 lbs for your height you're not really that overweight but you're not skinny either. You're allowed to say that you're not happy with the outcome or the process, yet honestly, a custom frame is no magical process that will make anyone and everyone comfortable on a bicycle.
I was never that comfortable on my custom road bike either and I did have a significantly slacker seat tube angle to begin with (71 degrees). It wasn't till I was fitter and no more than 5kg (about 10 lbs) overweight that I STARTED to be comfortable on a road bike.
ill upload photos of myself on the bike later.i will do the measurement you suggested.
08-23-22, 04:37 AM
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Anyway. Given that you have stated that the bike was specified at 76 degrees, but it actually measures 77 degrees, then this points to the bike having a shorter fork than the builder specified it for. Or did the fork come with the frame?
I'd be getting the one degree back at least.
Also, achieving KOPS with a zero setback post is actually pointing to the bike being biased for a relaxed position actually. Most mortals achieve KOPS with a standard setback post of 15-25mm.
08-23-22, 04:52 AM
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Your groin touching the top tube is of little consequence in my book. Both feet flat on the ground, even if its touching is standover clearance. Standover clearance never used to exist. It's just a quick and dirty measurement for salespeople to size bikes, sounding like they're experts when they are not.
Anyway. Given that you have stated that the bike was specified at 76 degrees, but it actually measures 77 degrees, then this points to the bike having a shorter fork than the builder specified it for. Or did the fork come with the frame?
I'd be getting the one degree back at least.
Also, achieving KOPS with a zero setback post is actually pointing to the bike being biased for a relaxed position actually. Most mortals achieve KOPS with a standard setback post of 15-25mm.
Anyway. Given that you have stated that the bike was specified at 76 degrees, but it actually measures 77 degrees, then this points to the bike having a shorter fork than the builder specified it for. Or did the fork come with the frame?
I'd be getting the one degree back at least.
Also, achieving KOPS with a zero setback post is actually pointing to the bike being biased for a relaxed position actually. Most mortals achieve KOPS with a standard setback post of 15-25mm.
maybe the seat tube welding was not correct, and was placed 1 degree steeper.
08-23-22, 08:55 AM
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Your groin touching the top tube is of little consequence in my book. Both feet flat on the ground, even if its touching is standover clearance. Standover clearance never used to exist. It's just a quick and dirty measurement for salespeople to size bikes, sounding like they're experts when they are not.
I actually went back and modified a frame because of this.
https://www.bikeforums.net/22451258-post446.html
08-23-22, 12:16 PM
#43
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I've never understood why stand over is important to some. Can't y'all just lean the bike to one side when you are stopped?
08-23-22, 05:03 PM
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Non issue.
I think it was with the introduction of compact frame geometry that bike shop staff started fitting people to bikes based on a certain amount of standover clearance.
08-23-22, 07:46 PM
#45
Banned.
So yes, I'd like some standover clearance pls!! If I'm going to smack the top tube, at least I want my foot to smack the ground first so I don't get 100% impact force on the family jewels!!
08-24-22, 08:26 AM
#46
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After seeing some vids where riders pedaling out of the saddle (standing) and without warning, the pedal broke from the crank or the crank arm broke off their super expensive bike or the chain snapped or skipped or miss-shifted and their family jewels and the top tube met together at immense force.
So yes, I'd like some stand over clearance pls!! If I'm going to smack the top tube, at least I want my foot to smack the ground first so I don't get 100% impact force on the family jewels!!
So yes, I'd like some stand over clearance pls!! If I'm going to smack the top tube, at least I want my foot to smack the ground first so I don't get 100% impact force on the family jewels!!
And those events are rare. I've never broken a crank and only once had a chain fail. Yet I don't remember it being a big deal on the oversize bikes I rode with top tube well within striking distance. Besides, the pain goes away quickly if you do happen to be the one chance in a bajillion. It's probably more likely you are going to crash your bike than rack your balls on one.
If you chose to worry about such then it's okay. However, If every thing else about a bike was right for me, stand over would not be a deal breaker.
08-24-22, 09:21 AM
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So, yes, SOH is important to some. Justifiably so.
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08-24-22, 09:58 AM
#48
Banned.
Well there's your answer don't buy super expensive bike's! <sarcasm>
And those events are rare. I've never broken a crank and only once had a chain fail. Yet I don't remember it being a big deal on the oversize bikes I rode with top tube well within striking distance. Besides, the pain goes away quickly if you do happen to be the one chance in a bajillion. It's probably more likely you are going to crash your bike than rack your balls on one.
If you chose to worry about such then it's okay. However, If every thing else about a bike was right for me, stand over would not be a deal breaker.
And those events are rare. I've never broken a crank and only once had a chain fail. Yet I don't remember it being a big deal on the oversize bikes I rode with top tube well within striking distance. Besides, the pain goes away quickly if you do happen to be the one chance in a bajillion. It's probably more likely you are going to crash your bike than rack your balls on one.
If you chose to worry about such then it's okay. However, If every thing else about a bike was right for me, stand over would not be a deal breaker.
Personally, I have two more good reasons why I wanted a low standover height. More seat post exposed means the seat post will flex more and help soak some of the bumps leading to a more comfortable ride regardless of the frame or seatpost material. And ofc, the low standover height makes it a lot easier to get in and out of the bike.
08-24-22, 10:14 AM
#49
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It just so happens people tend to take video of themselves or their riding buddies riding their super expensive bikes. People who ride super cheap bikes on the other hand is too embarrassed video themselves. I'm sure someone crash landing on the top tube also happens on super cheap bikes, we just don't see videos of them.
Personally, I have two more good reasons why I wanted a low standover height. More seat post exposed means the seat post will flex more and help soak some of the bumps leading to a more comfortable ride regardless of the frame or seatpost material. And ofc, the low standover height makes it a lot easier to get in and out of the bike.
Personally, I have two more good reasons why I wanted a low standover height. More seat post exposed means the seat post will flex more and help soak some of the bumps leading to a more comfortable ride regardless of the frame or seatpost material. And ofc, the low standover height makes it a lot easier to get in and out of the bike.
I don't get the making it easier to get in and out of the bike. We were always taught to swing a leg over the rear wheel and either get in the saddle and go, or let the leg pass over the saddle and stand.... with the bike leaning if the TT was too high.
For those that have special reasons why they can't then that's okay. You do what you have to do and use what works. If that requires a low TT, then that's a special issue just for you. Again, it's not a valid way to size a bike or nix a bike for others that don't have the same concerns or issues.
08-30-22, 01:01 PM
#50
Banned
Neither you or the frame builder know enough about frame geometry to get it right. The fault lies with you as I would not expect a frame welder to know this. I take a bike that does work for me and then give those specifications to the guy welding the frame.
Top tube length and fork rake are very important and knowing the body dimension you provided is not nearly enough. I would write off the cost of the frame and start at the beginning by spending time as bike shops and making notes. There are also websites like the ones for Specialized and Trek that provide dimensions and angles for various types and frame sizes.Neither you or the frame builder know enough about frame geometry to get it right. The fault lies with you as I would not expect a frame welder to know this. I take a bike that does work for me and then give those specifications to the guy welding the frame.
Top tube length and fork rake are very important and knowing the body dimension you provided is not nearly enough. I would write off the cost of the frame and start at the beginning by spending time as bike shops and making notes. There are also websites like the ones for Specialized and Trek that provide dimensions and angles for various types and frame sizes.
Standover height is important if you make sudden stops and have cleats that lock you to the pedals. Otherwise it is a simple matter to reduce the height of the bike by leaning it to one side. I can reduce the seat height of my bikes by more than 20 inches by doing this. A longer seat post that flexes is going to damage the lug holding the seat tube to the top tube and not a good idea.
Top tube length and fork rake are very important and knowing the body dimension you provided is not nearly enough. I would write off the cost of the frame and start at the beginning by spending time as bike shops and making notes. There are also websites like the ones for Specialized and Trek that provide dimensions and angles for various types and frame sizes.Neither you or the frame builder know enough about frame geometry to get it right. The fault lies with you as I would not expect a frame welder to know this. I take a bike that does work for me and then give those specifications to the guy welding the frame.
Top tube length and fork rake are very important and knowing the body dimension you provided is not nearly enough. I would write off the cost of the frame and start at the beginning by spending time as bike shops and making notes. There are also websites like the ones for Specialized and Trek that provide dimensions and angles for various types and frame sizes.
Standover height is important if you make sudden stops and have cleats that lock you to the pedals. Otherwise it is a simple matter to reduce the height of the bike by leaning it to one side. I can reduce the seat height of my bikes by more than 20 inches by doing this. A longer seat post that flexes is going to damage the lug holding the seat tube to the top tube and not a good idea.