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Double butted

Old 08-26-22, 07:13 AM
  #26  
Ironfish653
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Originally Posted by HuffyMaster3000
If I'm looking at say a 600 dollar bike most of the cost of the bike is due to the frame. I originally thought the cost of the bike is was mainly derived from the components.
I did some searching and I am beginning to see the light.
So your saying that if the frame is $100 the total cost of the bike is probably somewhere around $175. I was expecting $100 frame $400 dollar
If you’re talking about parts purchased at retail, it’ll generally cost you at least 50% more to build a bike one piece at a time, than to buy it complete. So, a bike that stickers for $600 will probably cost you closer to $900, if you source all the parts individually.

You also have a pretty generic of “light weight commuter MTB;” which can be covered by an awful lot of bikes that got made over the last 30 years. Nice, rideable mid-range 1990s MTBs can be had for $300 on the regular. That would leave a lot of your $600 budget for mods/upgrades based on what you want, rather than “what they have on hand”

There’s really nothing to be gained by cobbling a bike together from random parts, and unless most of the parts involved are acquired for free or near-free, there’s no real money to be saved either.
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Old 08-26-22, 10:51 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by koala logs
I once came upon this planet, their people actually call it "Rainbow". They got unicorns. Hospitals give free brain and broken collarbone surgeries and people toss their Ti bikes on dumpsters with full unopened vodka bottles.
And you came back to this one?
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Old 08-26-22, 07:48 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Yan
Frame vs component cost is variable. There is no hard rule. It depends on what you buy. If you get a high end frame and slap cheap parts on it, the frame will be the main cost. If you buy a cheap frame and slap expensive parts on it, the parts will be the main cost.

Also, cheaper parts doesn't have to mean low quality. You could use high quality parts that are slightly outdated, or carefully selected used parts. Same with frames. There are excellent deals out there for high quality used frames. This spring I bought a second hand $3000 frame for $1100 on eBay.

For a mid range build from all new frame and components, I'd say the parts are the bigger cost. $500 for the frame, about $1000 for the parts. $1500 total. That's a lower-mid range build these days. Low range would be $700-1000. Below $700 you get into the below-low range, aka the consumer range. These bikes are perfectly ridable but most hobby cyclist upgrade above this after a couple of years, so here on Bike Forums there's not a lot of discussion about these consumer bikes.

If your budget is below $700 but you still want a high quality "for keeps" bike, it's still very much possible. You just have to look on the used market.
Well I'm not a hobby cyclist. I ride a bike for transportation. The pavement around here is bad and sometimes I go off road. Also bike theft is out of control within this 50 mile area so I don't want anything too expensive.
I wasn't trying to buy parts retail, I am in the market for gently used parts and a used frame.
-----------
I was thinking about "mid-range 1990s MTBs" frames but I don't know if it's better to go for early 90's, late 90's or 2005-2000.
I know I want a 2x set up, flat bars, 26 inch wheels, probably only 21 speed, V-brakes ( easy maintenance), half fenders and tires less then 2.5 inch wide.
I'm not sure which type of shifters I want, or tire rubber compound. Most of the parts I know I can source from the coop the rest ebay. ( retail for tires)
I used to volunteer at the coop years ago, I want to build a bike because I enjoy wrenching more than riding.
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Old 08-26-22, 08:06 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by HuffyMaster3000
Well I'm not a hobby cyclist. I ride a bike for transportation. The pavement around here is bad and sometimes I go off road. Also bike theft is out of control within this 50 mile area so I don't want anything too expensive.
I wasn't trying to buy parts retail, I am in the market for gently used parts and a used frame.
-----------
I was thinking about "mid-range 1990s MTBs" frames but I don't know if it's better to go for early 90's, late 90's or 2005-2000.
I know I want a 2x set up, flat bars, 26 inch wheels, probably only 21 speed, V-brakes ( easy maintenance), half fenders and tires less then 2.5 inch wide.
I'm not sure which type of shifters I want, or tire rubber compound. Most of the parts I know I can source from the coop the rest ebay. ( retail for tires)
I used to volunteer at the coop years ago, I want to build a bike because I enjoy wrenching more than riding.

So you need a bike for transportation, not a hobby... yet you enjoy wrenching more than riding. Trying to figure out which it is. What did I miss? Oh, and there's a high likelihood anything you get will be stolen? Given your situation, I'll second the recommendation from a few posts up that you buy a cheap, solid, complete bike. If you still have some money and want to wrench on a bike for fun, you can gradually build up a second one. You're going to search for a frame and a collection of pretty specific parts, spend the time piecing it together, (once again) spend more money on all this than an assembled bike would cost, and then be really sad if it gets swiped. Get something that you have no time or emotion invested in, and when it's stolen you'll shrug if off.

I don't mean to discourage you. I've fixed up a few old bikes before. It was a good experience for me, because 1) I didn't need them, as I already owned several cars and a few other bikes, and 2) I had some disposable cash and free time. There was no time crunch or specific budget to stay within. You don't seem to have the same advantages currently. What Ironfish653 said above is true. A complete bike usually costs much less than the sum of its parts. Unless you have a stockpile of old parts on hand, or your co-op is really well stocked and easy to work with, a mid-range 1990s MTB will cost more to assemble piecemeal than it will ever be worth--even if you buy used parts. Think about it, just as used parts cost less than new retail, so do used bikes. Proceed with your plan if you're sure it's what will make you happy. I hope it does. Just proceed knowing what you're getting into.

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Old 08-26-22, 08:44 PM
  #30  
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The best thing about triple butted is that it’s six times better than half assed
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Old 08-26-22, 11:48 PM
  #31  
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I think you did miss a few things from this thread.
I came here asking about frame tubes instead of having that discussion I'm being forced to justify my reasons to build a bike. I'm going to recap a few points
- I have a bike which I'm using as transportation. I want to build a better one and give away or sell the one I'm riding now.
- I like working on and fixing things in general. I enjoy building bikes. I like building bikes more than I like riding
- I like wrenching so much I volunteered at this very same coop.
- I volunteered at this coop so I know how much parts they keep in stock. They always have more parts than they have frames. Unless something has changed over the past few years I will have a bugger problem with finding good frames.
- I don't have a specific budget but I can't justify spending more than $400 at a time for a bike.

Given used bike prices right now I'm not quite sure that I would get the same level of quality at the same price for an assembled bike vs a built one. But sure you all have a point and I will look around more for a complete bike.
“Aggressive” geometry in this context mean less slack in the head tube/ less upright riding position. I'm really felling some hostility about riding for transportation instead of pure enjoyment and my like of wrenching.
Is a bike not a form of transportation? Is wrenching not a part of bike culture?
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Old 08-27-22, 01:01 AM
  #32  
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Clunker threads in C&V = 'good for ideas'

There is always a mid-range. MTB & ATB bike frames should easily meet your goal - financial and durability. Aluminum mtbs (well inspected for cracks at welds) frames make good commuters - rigid frames, larger tires.


1982 Harding (Holdsworth Special) 531 was $150

'72 Zeus frame + fork, 531 metric, $100 + shipping, with a story. Sometimes the story is the best part.

let me find current pics....
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Old 08-27-22, 05:50 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Steel Charlie
And you came back to this one?
The lack of trolls in Planet Rainbow nearly bored me to death
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Old 08-27-22, 11:29 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by HuffyMaster3000
If I'm looking at say a 600 dollar bike most of the cost of the bike is due to the frame. I originally thought the cost of the bike is was mainly derived from the components.
I did some searching and I am beginning to see the light.
So your saying that if the frame is $100 the total cost of the bike is probably somewhere around $175. I was expecting $100 frame $400 dollar bike.
There are a couple of cheap bike build challenge threads.

I did one a few years ago (building the Litespeed posted above). Starting with a $100 bare forkless frame & seatpost.

I tried to skimp as much as possible, while using parts I wanted to ride when finished.

It was pretty eye opening. $100 for the frame. A few bucks for the fork, handlebars, stem, cranks, rims, hubs, wheels, spokes, tires, tubes, bar tape, brake calipers, brake levers, derailleurs, cassette, chain, etc.

I think I ended up using a front wheel bought somewhere and building my own rear wheel.

Ultimately that $100 frame became close to $400, and I really was trying to be cheap.
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Old 08-27-22, 11:54 AM
  #35  
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Post your location in your profile.

A few of us may well have frames or parts in the basement that could be let go, but not really worth the effort to pack up and ship across the country, with the shipping doubling the cost of a frame.

I've got a vintage Rincon frame somewhere that might work. Or a Technium MTB frame.

You said you want stuff that is less than 25 years old.

That puts the cutoff at about 1997. That is a pretty arbitrary cutoff date.

There is A LOT OF GOOD STUFF from the 80's and 90's in the MTB world. The bikes have morphed over time, with the 80's MTBs still being shaped like 80's road bikes, but with fatter tires. And, now modern MTB stuff looks squished flat.

If one is looking at road bikes, then back into the 1960's and 1970's is still good. Possibly even back into the 1950's. Certainly the hayday of the 3-speeds went back into the 50's.

Standards have evolved slowly, but there are a lot of parts shared over the bike generations.

Expand your search beyond the Coop. Craigslist, Facebook, Thrift Stores, etc. Around here, Goodwill and St. Vincent de' Paul's have regular sales. Learn the sale schedule. Sometimes bikes won't sell at the full asking price, but will sell at the sale price (and sometimes I get surprised that they sell quickly and are gone).



This one came as a full bike from St. Vincent de' Paul's. Jamis Coda Hybrid with double butted 520 steel, I think from around 1999 or 2000. It didn't seem to be moving, so I snagged it at half off for about $60 or so.

Ultimately I changed a LOT OF PARTS to go from the Hybrid to the touring/commuter bike. So, the original hybrid basically donated the frame and fork. But it was a fun project and I like the end result.
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Old 08-27-22, 06:24 PM
  #36  
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I'm in the Colorado area, front range-ish
I've seen that Jamis frame at the coop some years ago. They built it up to be a MTB for personal use. I had no idea it was a Hybrid frame.
I really wanted to go with MTB frame or (now hybrid).
I'm not surprised that your $100 frame build landed you at $400. It's what I'm expecting with my own build.
I don't have a particular budget but I know what I want my starting point to be.
Over the past couple of say I'm been doing more research about geometry. From what I gather 80's and more so 90's were designed with racing geometry. Between 2013 to 2015 Slack head tubes started to enter MTB geometry from downhill biking.
I don't know anything about the geometry changes in the 2000's, I'm guessing that period improved tubing material so I wanted to focus there
My cut off was 25 years because I was uncertain about frame and part compatibility ( the coop has parts mostly from 90's forwards). I'm also trying to stay away from old school BB and center pull brakes. Also I don't have tools for some of the older bike components.
I'm not ready to build yet. I'm probably going to start late next month, I'm just looking for info now.
Sorry about being defensive.
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Old 08-27-22, 07:14 PM
  #37  
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.
...if you have worked at that co-op, are there not more experienced people also working there, to whom you could turn for advice on the available frames ?
People used to ask me about our available bare frames all the time, when I was the Saturday manager. It's a lot easier to do frame in hand.
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Old 08-27-22, 08:39 PM
  #38  
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^ you're absolutely right. I could ask them but I moved a few towns over I would go in an chat but my time is a bit more limited right now, which I is why I'm waiting to build.
Those guys are knowledgeable but there are some things I know they don't know like rebuilding forks. They probably do know their frames but there are more people here on these forums.
I'm just asking around.
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Old 08-28-22, 09:10 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by HuffyMaster3000
I think you did miss a few things from this thread.
I came here asking about frame tubes instead of having that discussion I'm being forced to justify my reasons to build a bike. I'm going to recap a few points
*Snip*
Given used bike prices right now I'm not quite sure that I would get the same level of quality at the same price for an assembled bike vs a built one. But sure you all have a point and I will look around more for a complete bike.
*Snip*
I'm really felling some hostility about riding for transportation instead of pure enjoyment and my like of wrenching.
Is a bike not a form of transportation? Is wrenching not a part of bike culture?
I don't think anyone is bashing on you for riding for transportation, or even wanting do your own build, but the course you've decided to take is the hardest, most expensive way, especially for the kind of bike you want to build, and it's based on your insistence on a characteristic (tubing set) that's really inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

We're trying to give you guidance here, but the pushback is that the advice that will lead you to success means abandoning the path you laid out for yourself.

First, geometry: You have had a couple of bikes that didn't really fit. How do you know your dream frame is the right size? The guys who can figure it out, solely off of a spec sheet, have had a bunch of bikes, and done lots of measurements, so they can figure out how a bike will fit them, just on the math. If you don't have that kind of experience (I'm not quite there yet) the best way is to have a bike that's at least got wheels, a saddle and handlebars, so you can hop on it and do the Goldilocks test (Too Big, Too Small, Just Right)
Same goes for "aggressive vs laid-back" geometry; it's way easier to tell if your looking at a 72* NORBA -XC bike, an old-school 68* Marin ATB, or just a generic 70* recreational MTB if you've got a complete bike; you can just stand back and look at the thing.
Starting with a bare frame, you won't know until you've got it built.

Components: A bike that's wearing most of it's original components can tell you a lot more about the age and price/performance tier than just the frame stickers can. Some names like the Stumpjumper have been around for 30+ years, and worn by dozens of different models; you'll have to search s/n#s to figure out what bare frame you've got.
You can tell a lot about a bike just by looking at the rear derailleur; anything Deore (XT, LX, etc) with be a better bike than something with Alivio / Acera. Components (especially Shimano) have the series number on the back side, so there's another indicator of date range, and also compatibility. Anything SunTour means it's probably pre-1993; good stuff, but that's about when Shimano took over the US market.

Finally, Budget: Starting with a bare frame really puts you on the back foot, especially when you've got a hard budget cap. I don't know how well stocked your co-op is, or how generous their comp arrangement is, but a lot of these $100 frames you're talking about, you can find as complete bikes for $250-$350 on CL/Marketplace. That leaves a lot more of your $600 for upgrades/modifications than that ~$200 would go, trying to "dress" a bare frame.
Be patient and cast a wide net, and sometimes some real gems turn up. There's a '91 Cannondale M700 on my CL for $120, right now. It's complete but a little tatty, and it's an XXL, but that's a good deal for someone.
I recently bought home an '88 KLEIN Pinnacle MTB I found at a flea market for $100 (if you know anything about KLEIN bikes, that's an absolutely insane deal) I changed the bars and stem, put new tires on it, and the usual tune-up stuff; cables, chain, brake pads; and just like that, over $200 in new parts.
Like we've said, the big parts are easy, it's the little stuff like cable guides, seat clamp, brake hangers, that will nickel -and-dime your build over budget. The devil is in the details, and the bike won't work without 'em.
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Old 08-28-22, 02:32 PM
  #40  
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OP keeps mentioning Jamis as if that has any meaning.
It's just a company that specs and sells a wide range of bike styles in various levels of quality.
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Old 08-28-22, 10:54 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by HuffyMaster3000
I think you did miss a few things from this thread.
I came here asking about frame tubes instead of having that discussion I'm being forced to justify my reasons to build a bike. I'm going to recap a few points
- I have a bike which I'm using as transportation. I want to build a better one and give away or sell the one I'm riding now.
- I like working on and fixing things in general. I enjoy building bikes. I like building bikes more than I like riding
- I like wrenching so much I volunteered at this very same coop.
- I volunteered at this coop so I know how much parts they keep in stock. They always have more parts than they have frames. Unless something has changed over the past few years I will have a bugger problem with finding good frames.
- I don't have a specific budget but I can't justify spending more than $400 at a time for a bike.
Oh, okay. Sorry for derailing the thread. I’d definitely recommend a double butted frame at least, and you should try to find triple butting. See if you can get a frame made from Reynolds 501 or 531. Or Columbus—they have some nice stuff too.
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Old 08-29-22, 01:16 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
OP keeps mentioning Jamis as if that has any meaning.
It's just a company that specs and sells a wide range of bike styles in various levels of quality.
Jamis is one of the companies that makes quite a few steel frames. Mostly less than 30 years old, and often with some version of double butted chromoly.

A lot of other brands have moved to mostly hydroformed aluminum.

Now, there are different costs and benefits of different materials and construction styles.

If one is interested in a "vintage" MTB or Hybrid from say 1980 to 2000, then there should be a variety of manufactures making good steel frames.
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Old 08-29-22, 11:48 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by koala logs
The lack of trolls in Planet Rainbow nearly bored me to death
Might be a business opportunity in exporting a few from this planet to Rainbow - at both ends even
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Old 08-29-22, 12:03 PM
  #44  
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IIRC, 30-40 years ago, Bicycling mag did a comparative test of bikes made with 531, Columbus, Ishiwata, and Tange tubing, and the conclusion was that the tubing itself didn't do much to determine the ride of a bike.

The design of the frame affected the ride. The quality of the brazing affected the ride. But I believe the author of the article concluded that the vast majority of us wouldn't be able to detect a difference in tubesets used, if the tubes had the similar dimensions.

I do not remember the fine print in the test, so I may very well be oversimplifying. I looked for the article to refresh my memory, but I couldn't find a copy. I have no doubt that another BF member (StealBikeGuy?) can pull up the link in a second and a half.

The point is that it may make sense to go for a double- or triple- or quadruple-butted frame, but only if it's going to fit.

But I keep getting passed by a guy on a green, apparently French bike that may very well be made of hi-tensile steel and by a guy on a white/black Raleigh Grand Prix, which I know is Hi-ten. My 531 bike is pure indulgence.
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Old 08-31-22, 05:47 PM
  #45  
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With frames I don't expect to find one with a longer top tube but the same seat tube and chain stay height, Then find another one with the same top tube and chain stay but longer seat tube. Frames have multiple dimensions changed. How does anyone have a custom frame built for them if the frames needs the built up first before you can test fit and ride quality?
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Old 08-31-22, 10:10 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by HuffyMaster3000
With frames I don't expect to find one with a longer top tube but the same seat tube and chain stay height, Then find another one with the same top tube and chain stay but longer seat tube. Frames have multiple dimensions changed. How does anyone have a custom frame built for them if the frames needs the built up first before you can test fit and ride quality?
Okay, back in post #39, in the paragraph where I talked about geometry, I mentioned that the people who have custom bikes built, have had multiple bikes that fit correctly and have measured them extensively, so they know how a certain set of dimensions will fit and feel.

Usually, when you buy a new bike, you go to a dealer (LBS) and try different sizes and different models, often with the assistance of the shop staff.
Once you've got a bike that fits, it's easy to get a baseline for what bikes fit, and how to evaluate a bike based on some key measurements.

​​​​​​If all you've ever ridden are found bikes that don't really fit, you don't really have any baseline knowledge to evaluate the fit of a bike based on only measurements, let alone a bare frame.

Like I said, you'd be far better served by starting with a complete bike for your build; none of the frames you've mentioned really seems like anything special; you've mentioned some decent brands, but they made a lot of different models, so who can tell which ones have turned up at the co-op?
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Old 09-01-22, 07:25 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by HuffyMaster3000
With frames I don't expect to find one with a longer top tube but the same seat tube and chain stay height, Then find another one with the same top tube and chain stay but longer seat tube. Frames have multiple dimensions changed. How does anyone have a custom frame built for them if the frames needs the built up first before you can test fit and ride quality?
Trust. Or a bike fit.
...or a bit of both.

I built a frame in a class and we talked geometry while drawing out the frame in full size on paper. I took a bike I really like overall, talked about what I want changed to make for a better fit, and then built the frame.
No surprise- its perfect.
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Old 09-01-22, 07:36 AM
  #48  
prj71
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Originally Posted by HuffyMaster3000
Is a bike not a form of transportation?
It is a form of transportation, but the majority here ride bikes for fun, pleasure and fitness and use our cars for transportation.

Is wrenching not a part of bike culture?
Not really. Newer bikes don't need a lot of wrenching. And if they do...drop them off at the local bike shop and let them wrench on the bike.
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Old 09-01-22, 08:53 AM
  #49  
mstateglfr 
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Originally Posted by prj71
Not really. Newer bikes don't need a lot of wrenching. And if they do...drop them off at the local bike shop and let them wrench on the bike.
Of course it is...for some. Same as always. Some enjoy working on bikes and others dont.
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Old 09-01-22, 09:52 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by prj71
It is a form of transportation, but the majority here ride bikes for fun, pleasure and fitness and use our cars for transportation.
A lot of us have cars, too, but prefer​​​​​​ to use bikes, and some, whether by choice or circumstance, use bikes as their primary transportation. Just because your experience is different, doesn't mean you need to neg the OP; otherwise we'll get a reputation for being a bunch of elitist snobs around here. Oh, wait.......

Originally Posted by prj71
Not really. Newer bikes don't need a lot of wrenching. And if they do...drop them off at the local bike shop and let them wrench on the bike.
See above:. Just because you don't like it............
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