tajimirich

I want to make a frankenbike. I don't have the money to just buy a complete roadbike of the ilk I'm after, but I'm happy to take my time and I want to start off by getting myself the ideal frame.

What is that frame?

I am dreaming of a Reynolds 531, double- or triple-butted, lugged steel frame, which i can give a new lease of life to and ride around Japan. 58cm. I don't need it to be mint - I certainly can't afford mint - but I'd like it to show no rust or deformation from some old collision, or anything like that. I don't need wheels, chainset, pedals and all that - I'm happy to put all that together at a later date. I just want to start off by getting my dream, lightweight, flexible steel frame. Would be nice if it had brackets and the like that could allow for modern components to be fitted to it...

I live in Japan, so shipping would have to be a consideration.. There are ever-so-few steel frames of my size over here.. I find it hard to believe that there aren't some super well made 80s steel frames from japanese companies that i can find here... but there it is.

So, yes, I'm really interesting in getting my hands on the frame for a reynolds 531 steel frame bike with maximum butting, tasteful lugging and - in theory - enough life left in it for me to ride it all over Japan.

If anyone knows a good website for finding such an item, or indeed if anyone is selling such an item, I'd really appreciate some help! I've tried ebay uk, gumtree in australia, whathaveyou, maybe I'm missing out on a no-brainer website?

Rich'

Dean V

Plenty of other tube sets out there that are as good or better than 531.

tajimirich

Oh, do tell, please! I'll eat up any and all trivia/advice

IS one such frame of Japanese make, and possibly find'able here? At 58cm...

mstateglfr 

Ishiwata and Tange were the two large Japanese tubing brands from the time period you mention. Also, Miyata produced their own tubing starting in the mid-80s.
If you find a mid-level or higher road frame from the following brands, it will likely have Ishiwata, Tange, or Miyata tubing- Shogun, Panasonic, Miyata, Centurion, Univega, Nishiki, Fuji, and many many more. The 80s was a boom time for quality Japanese frame production.

As for what is 'equal' to 531 tubing? Well 531 tubing came in many variations so there is no singular answer to that. Generally, Tange 1, Tange 2, and Tange Prestige were all quality and could be equal in spec(or better) to 531 tubing. Ishiwata Si3, 017, 019, 022, and EX-F were all quality tubing that is of quality that people tend to think of for 531 and some of it would be higher spec too.

Post in the C&V forum on this site. You can buy a monthly membership and post in the C&V for sale are too, just say what you want to buy and where you are. There may be others in Japan.

sced

I second that you should post your interests in the Classic and Vintage sub-forum. There is tremendous knowledge about steel bikes there.

tajimirich

That's the kinda know-how I really love. Thanks so much, I'll keep this firmly in mind moving forward... I just hope one of them did a 58cm frame or two... Living here, the biggest frame I've yet seen (despite a 63cm one) has been 56cm...

I'll definitely take on these new leads. I've found a 58cm frame in australia that is reynolds 531, but it'd cost a fair amount to ship over here... Hope I can find something else...

Massive gratitude for ur knowledge

sced thank you very much for your input too, the forum list became a blur as I was just trying to find a place to ask my question Noted!

Camilo

I also recommend the C&V forum, they know everything about this sort of stuff. Great group. You don't have to buy a subscription to look at the for sale subforum there, but if you want to post a "Want to Buy" (WTB), you'd have to. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you find what you're looking for there. I've bought several things from people on the for sale subforum, the biggest being a high end frame and fork, but also various vintage and vintage-ish parts.... , and sold a couple of items.

I used to have a saved EBay search with emailed notifications using keywords of the types of Japanese steels mentioned above (as well as Columbus and some others...) I ended up with a little-known, but highly regarded frame in Columbus SLX from the 80s for a very reasonable price, but would have been very happy to find a frame in one of the better Japanese tubesets as well. That's why i was searching for tubing names rather than bike names. You might try that too. I've bought and sold dozens and dozens of bicycle items on EBay again large (frames/forks, complete bikes) and small.

For EBay and the C&V forum, you have to find sellers who have a reasonable shipping cost to your location. It can really vary, and sometimes sellers are willing to work with you if you happen to be more familiar with reasonable ways to ship frames to (in your case, Japan) than they are. It might be a good idea to do a little research on how to best get a large box to you so you can evaluate shipping costs and/or advise the seller.

jaxgtr

I had a Raleigh Record from the 70's that I rode as a teen in the 70's that used 531 tubing and it was a very nice ride. I agree with others that C&V would be your friend on this questions.

Sy Reene

Or go new and give up the lugs
https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribbl...-725-frameset/

joesch

Agree, bet you could find a Tange Prestige and enjoy some high quality rides on a great frame

JohnDThompson 

Tange "Champion" tube sets were all the same chrome-moly alloy steel; the numbers indicated different wall thickness, the larger the number, the thicker the wall. "Prestige" tubes were heat-treated Champion tubes. Any would be as good quality if not better than Reynolds 531.

kraftwerk 

Get the word out in Japan, there might be a 58 cm lightweight frame already for there, which would save a lot on shipping.

Wildwood 

I have owned two frames with Ishiwata 022 tubesets, both lugged. Great bikes, Bianchi Limited and Batavus Competition. I am 86 kg and felt the frames were very sturdy.

So if you are considering truly dream framesets, maybe look for something with Ishi 019. Or a nice one in 022.

Look for mid-80's bikes or later (at least Euro/USA brands), by these years they muchly had cable guides, drllled for bottle brackets, under BB routing, etc. Setting the rear spacing to 130mm & checking drop-out alignment isn't an issue, but 'modern' can be much wider. '90s frames might be an even better bet with the newest components.

Good luck.
I believe there are some Japan based members, in the C&V conversations is where I have read their posts. Maybe ask your frame question there. Put 'Japan based' in the title somewhere. And search C&V threads for answers. Japanese frames worth collecting, lightweight frames from Japan, or some such language.

Road Fan

One point is that Reynolds traditional products were made in straight gauge and double-butted sets, not triple-butted as far as I know.

Another is that the "magic" of it is based not on the branding, but on the diameter of the tube, the length, and the butting profile. The butting profile sums up the wall thickness at each of the butts, in the middle (aka "belly") of the tube, and the tapered transition. There are quite a lot of different designs over the years. The magic also depends on the elasticity of the steel itself, measured by the modulus of elasticity. This is never talked about because its the same for all of the different forms and formulas of raw, unshaped steel. What changes with different butting profiles is how flexible a tube is and hence how easily a built frame will flex in response to pedaling stresses, initiating turns, and running over irregularities in the pavement - thinner diameters and thinner wall thicknesses result in more flexibility, also less strength.

Similar tubes feel the same. Differences include workmanship, finish quality, adherence to specifications and dimensions. For example, famous Columbus SL has butting 9/6/9, same as Reynolds 501. 501 has different butting profile than 531, but it is the same as that of Columbus SL. Its alloy is also the same as that of Columbus SL, a little less strength that the alloy of 531. But in practice, framebuilders have said Columbus is easier to build with because of its accurate sizing and better finishing. Does that make a better bike? I don't know.

There is a load to say. Several posts over the >20 years of BF go into this stuff in great detail and completeness.

And there are about 5 other brandings and basic classifications, involving stronger alloys, thinner profiles, larger diameters, lugged/not lugged, circular/oval, and other variations. In more modern times thinner walls, stronger alloys, and larger ciameters have become popular.

I say if you like 531 due to reputation, and like for the great British racing frames of the 1970s and 1980s, find a framebuilding class and go for it. If you are in Japan, be aware Japanese materials and workmanship were also at a very high level, usually higher. So there are a lot of models you can imitate, but a good framebuilding class will also teach you how to design. This frees you from the need to imitate, if you don't want to.

Road Fan

One point is that Reynolds traditional products were made in straight gauge and double-butted sets, not triple-butted as far as I know.

Another is that the "magic" of it is based not on the branding, but on the diameter of the tube, the length, and the butting profile. The butting profile sums up the wall thickness at each of the butts, in the middle (aka "belly") of the tube, and the tapered transition. There are quite a lot of different designs over the years. The magic also depends on the elasticity of the steel itself, measured by the modulus of elasticity. This is never talked about because its the same for all of the different forms and formulas of raw, unshaped steel. What changes with different butting profiles is how flexible a tube is and hence how easily a built frame will flex in response to pedaling stresses, initiating turns, and running over irregularities in the pavement - thinner diameters and thinner wall thicknesses result in more flexibility, also less strength.

Similar tubes feel the same. Differences include workmanship, finish quality, adherence to specifications and dimensions. For example, famous Columbus SL has butting 9/6/9, same as Reynolds 501. 501 has different butting profile than 531, but it is the same as that of Columbus SL. Its alloy is also the same as that of Columbus SL, a little less strength that the alloy of 531. But in practice, framebuilders have said Columbus is easier to build with because of its accurate sizing and better finishing. Does that make a better bike? I don't know.

There is a load to say. Several posts over the >20 years of BF go into this stuff in great detail and completeness.

And there are about 5 other brandings and basic classifications, involving stronger alloys, thinner profiles, larger diameters, lugged/not lugged, circular/oval, and other variations. In more modern times thinner walls, stronger alloys, and larger diameters have become popular.

I say if you like 531 due to reputation, and like for the great British racing frames of the 1970s and 1980s, find a framebuilding class and go for it. If you are in Japan, be aware Japanese materials and workmanship were also at a very high level, usually higher. So there are a lot of models you can imitate, but a good framebuilding class will also teach you how to design. This frees you from the need to imitate, if you don't want to.

tajimirich

Thanks so much for your informative post! As it ends up, I've gone with 'Tange Prestige' pipes in an '89 Shogun Ninja frame that'll be shipped to me next week, all things being well. Hope it turns out well - my local bike shop guy thinks highly of the frame!