GhostRider62

I am going thru the same thought exercise. It is almost impossible to go down with a tubular flat, unlike clinchers or tubeless. I had a crash recently, maybe like yours 8 years ago. From what I have read, most tubie flats can be fixed with the addition of sealant although some ride with sealant inside prophylactically.

urbanknight

I don’t consider high pressure to be the benefit of tubulars. After all those years thinking I needed 140psi at every race no matter how bumpy the surface, I now have come to enjoy the benefits of running 70/85 psi in my 28mm tires, and would probably do the same on tubulars.

I consider ride quality and safety to be the selling points. Maybe I just haven’t found the right clincher or tubeless tire (Open Corsa came close), but I’m also one of those riders who went down because I flatted on a curve with clinchers. It just made me think that sealant and pinch flat avoidance seem to be the biggest selling points on tubeless, which you should be able to get from tubulars.

DiabloScott

Yes, that is my experience with tubed tubulars and tubed clinchers with sealant; I've had the sealant spray out of rather small punctures and stick to my frame and handlebars and face. I don't have any experience with tubeless so I'm only going on the glowing reviews of how well they work.

The sealant works by sort of scabbing up around the jagged edges of a puncture or cut, and I suspect those jagged edges on a tubeless tire carcass are more available for the sealant to glom on to than the rather more smooth edges of a punctured tube. Like how when you cut yourself with a something really sharp it takes longer for the bleeding to stop than it does when you have a laceration with a tree branch or something.

I use tubulars because I like them, but I don't get many flats anyway. I use sealant as a little extra protection and it has worked somewhat - sometimes just enough to get home. If I got a lot of flats I wouldn't like tubulars as much - cost and hassle. I might try the Tufo tubeless tubulars though.

As far as being stranded - you have to estimate the probability of a ruined tire (too big of a failure for the sealant to fix) and what the consequence would be. With tubulars, even though the risk might be higher, you've got a whole intact spare tire to put on. With tubeless you either have to put in a tube or call for a ride (at least I don't see many tubeless riders with spare tires).

urbanknight

That’s the stuff I was trying to remember that people were calling Fix-a-Flat for bikes. If I recall, the only complaint was it taking time and effort to get the sealant to reach the hole, which would be solved by using sealant preventatively instead of for repair.

squirtdad

it might be good to look at a little background...

Here is my understanding of back ground and personal analysis. Note I have hands on experience with clincher and tubular, but not with tubeless

Tubeless started with mountain bikers who wanted to avoid pinch flats at low pressures, especially in larger tires (Side note: mountain bike racer have used tubular in the past, like large cyclo cross tubulars)
Tubeless started to move to road bikes with the movement to larger tires on road bike and gravel biking and now slowly into racing

Sealant observations: Sealant work best in low pressure scenarios (tubeless) or with tubular.

My experience with sealant and tubed clinchers is mixed. Corsa g+ with latex tubes, tube blew up before I could tell, with butly tubes at 120 psi.....lots of sealant (orange seal) spraying but not much sealing. GP5000, conti race light buty tubes, 105 psi, caffe latex works

Tubeless, based on reading lots of threads here

1. Lots of people have good experiences and love thame
2. conversion are a real pain
3. Best results are with tubeless specific rims and tires
4. In many case getting tire on is really tough
5. getting seal at rim can be an issue..... people use compressors or special resivoir pumps
6. Getting tire off to put tube in for a flat can be hit or miss
7. sealant and plug technologies are improving

My take is the real benefit is in tires larger than 32mm

clincher

1. new tires better than ever, getting very close to tubular
2. proven technology
3. great for flat on road, carry a tube and a patch kit and a pump and you can handle lots of flats

tubular

1. still the best ride
2. Glueing a tire is not that big of a deal, a lot less hassle than getting tubeless setup IMHO
3. lightest wheel tire combination
4. safety if flat
5. bragging rights

i am riding both clinchers and tubulars, but don't see tubeless in near future do to set up and more important concerns for on road flats

Germany_chris

If the bike was a pure road bike or Cyclocross race bike I’d still run tubulars, tubeless sealant works fine in tubies I’ve been doing it for years.

urbanknight

So does it work about the same? A puncture seals up pretty quick and you just add a little air if necessary?

Germany_chris

Yes

Leisesturm

Safety? I'm not seeing how tubulars would be safer if run at 85psi. 70psi would absolutely be asking for trouble. The fully inflated tire bedded into the concave outer surface of the rim is mainly what keeps a tublular on. The adhesive is extra insurance. With clinchers the wire (or Kevlar) bead keeps the tire from squirming off regardless of inflation pressure. Much is made of the fact that a punctured clincher loses air rapidly. It can, but mostly it does not. Don't let a single bad experience sour you. I am sure that if a tubeless (or tubular) got a construction staple embedded it would lose air just as quickly.

I believe Slime and the other tire sealants were automotive products before they made it over to the bicycle realm, just like tubeless tire technology. The weight of a tire loaded with Slime is obviously a non-issue with 90+ horsepower available form the most anemic econo-sedan you might consider. In a bicycle tire it has much more of an effect on ride and handling. So products like Stan's sealant attempt to do more with less. But the physics of small volume high pressure vs very large volume at low pressure work against tire sealants. They don't work all that well in car tires and they definitely don't work that well in bike tires. In the best case scenario they can turn what might have been a ride ending call of shame into a limp home situation. A construction staple will still be a sudden and complete loss of tire pressure event.

There is no way the do it yourself bike mechanic can compete with the embedded automotive tire care and service industry. They have hydraulic presses that pop tire beads in seconds and heavy duty compressors running on 240V that re-seat those same tire beads, again, in seconds. None of this can be done on the roadside, so the 'spare tire' be it a matching one or special utility spare, will be stowed away under the trunk for the rare (these days) occurrence of a flat. To effect a proper repair of a tubeless bike tire it must be de-mounted and plugged just like an automotive tire. This means a flat becomes a ride ending event unless a spare tube was carried along. Maybe it's me but since I use tubes in my tires all the time if a tube fails it means the solution is a new tube. This can be done in about 15 minutes and my tire is as good as new. Does it never occur to the tubeless rider repairing a flat with a tube ... doesn't the irony sink in after awhile?

Car tires get 90% of their flat resistance from their sheer mass of rubber at the contact patch. Not much gets through 3/4" (and more) of rubber compound. The Kevlar and Steel cords and sheaths and such are to stabilize and reinforce the structural integrity of a tire that has to manage tons of payload at highway speeds. A bicycle tire is woefully inadequate by comparison. The flat-proofing that many of you want can never be achieved by the use of sealants and tubeless technology. Only tires known to be specially constructed to resist penetration by common road debris are going to get the job done for you. They WILL weigh more. They will have thicker tread at the contact patch. Their ride will be less supple and 'fine'. It is a trade-off. Bontrager HardCase, Schwalbe Marathon Plus, Continental GatorSkin, these and a few others are your main defense against frequent flatting. If you don't get many flats (and some of you don't) then you obviously can go for any tire that tickles your fancy but urban riders, riders in Goat Head Thorn country ... we know from flats and we buy the road warrior tires and call it good.

Mainly these are going to be clincher tires. The most durable and rugged tubular will look like paper compared to a Marathon Plus tire. There are some pretty big and durable tubeless tires and that's great. Still, you ARE going to flat one day. Then what? You'll use a tube to limp home with. Then the mess and fuss of dealing with the sealant so you can get the hole plugged. I'll leave it there.

woodcraft

I run road tubulars at 70 psi or even a bit less, & it's fine. The CX tires are 35 psi or lower. I think you are referring to "the myth of the rolled tubular" which turns out to be a vanishingly rare event.

urbanknight

I'm referring to how a tubular generally stays on the rim even during a rapid blowout. Yes, it would deflate just as quickly, but it would stay on the rim (if glued properly) and you'd have a fighting chance of staying up in a corner. I would assume tubulars can be run at lower PSI if they were once used on mountain bikes.

From what I have read, properly sealed tires don't require that much sealant and most people complaining about weight have likely put too much in. Everyone I know who runs tubeless praises it for sealing most punctures before the air goes completely out, and topping off the air once or twice during the rest of the ride makes it work like new.

From my reading, most of the "repairs" on tubeless are just letting the sealant do it's job for a minute or two. No new tube needed. The irony of needing a tube to fix tubeless is not lost on me, but if you only need to do that once every few years versus multiple times per year, it sounds like a plus to me.

Also, 15 minutes to change a tube?! Keep practicing and you'll likely get it down to about 3.

The goal of sealants, if I understand correctly, is to reduce the hassle from getting a puncture, not to avoid a puncture altogether. I'd rather just wait a minute for the sealant to do its job and add a little bit of are over pulling the whole tire off and stuffing a new tube in there to inflate from scratch every time. I'm also under the impression that putting a tube into a tubeless does not make you "limp home" any more than replacing a tube in a clincher does. The fact that you can't do that with a tubular tire is a concern to me.

79pmooney

My one bad experience was one of my worst half dozen crashes. I lost air very fast. That left me trying to ride my bike on an aluminum sidewall. Like riding on ice - in August. I lightened my grip (just like I would on ice) to try to nurse the bike around the gentle left-hand bend to stay off the curb. I was succeeding until the tire came off and jammed in the seatstays. By contrast I have full on blown tubulars going far faster and it simply wasn't an issue. As I said above, I don't even remember if it was a front or rear.

"Don't let a single bad experience sour you." Doing that crash at twice the speed is a nightmare I do not want to see in this lifetime or the next.

79pmooney

The joy of tubulars is that when you flat, you simply peel off the tire and put a fresh one on. Whatever caused that flat matters zero. If the tire is destroyed, that doesn't change the ride home at all. And the rim can be near destroyed and still hold a tire just fine. (I've bumped home with an inch deep dent in the rim. Sidewall worn right through from the brakes. A clincher or tubeless rim would have blown up years before.)

urbanknight

I'm a little hesitant about replacing a tubular tire out on the road because I always did a messy job in the comfort of my own home. That’s why the idea of running with sealant in it is so appealing to me.

Lazyass

I squirt the sealant in, install the valve core, inflate the tire and ride. Stan's sealant is great. I've actually had to do it only once because as I mentioned a hardly ever get punctures on tubulars. And my multitool I carry is a Crankbros M17. It has a chain breaker and a chainbreaker can be used as a valve core removal tool, it fits perfect. I always have a spare tire strapped to my saddle and that's only for a backup if I get a sidewall tear.

But of course in a total emergency I can limp home on a flat tubular so I feel more secure against ever being stranded than I do with clinchers. But I've had at least one bike with tubulars since I got my first road bike in '87 and I've never had to do that.

Lazyass

My tire had only a couple of hundred miles when I put the Stan's in it and I ran it until the tire wore out with no issues. But it never sat at home long enough to become deflated. I think as long as you always keep the tire pumped up it will be fine. Just my experience anyway.

GhostRider62

I double flatted and went down just like that. Like onn ice. The aluminum rim issue. The funny thing is I have only experienced this phenomenon with those particular rims, it has happened twice. On my carbon rims, it is easier to control......not sure if it is the well design or a different coefficient of friction of the carbon vs alu.

I broke my hip, 5 ribs, shattered my clavicle, broken scapula, broken humerus in three pieces, and elbow in more than three pieces.

A tubular will not recede into the well of the rim like a clincher or tubeless because there is no well and because it is glued to the rim. A flat on a tubular has you riding on the casing and it is pretty easy to control the bike. For those of us who raced in the old days, the standard to a flat in the peloton was to raise your hand so everyone knows who it was. It was never a problem handling the bike with one hand. It is pretty simple concept.....so, totally agreeing with you. BTW....I have a Mooney too.

woodcraft

I agree.

squirtdad

you don't re glue on the road, have the spare pre glued, pull the flat off, put the spare on pump it up and ride, but don't push hard. get home and glue properly

urbanknight

Ah, I see. So on the spare, corner gingerly until you get home and glue it completely?

79pmooney

I used (and will use again) Tubasti, the French glue that doesn't set up hard but stays tacky. I never carried glue. Just peeled off the flatted tire, stuck on the replacement. I glued my race silks on hard with Clement or the like (no tire changes; just a new wheel; that Tubasti'd training wheel) but all the rest of my riding on tubulars was with Tubasti (for 10 years and commuter tires until 2000). (Tubulars to commute because regardless of how or why you flatted, you were getting to work on time and out of shaky neighborhoods in 5 minutes. Darkness, rain, snow, mental fog- none of that mattered to getting a rideable wheel. I sometimes couldn't look down after my hasty changes; the tread would make me seasick. )

I heard then and have heard since that the soft Tubasti has more rolling resistance than the hard glues. May be true. Certainly my Tubasti'd cotton ~300g training tires were a real step slower than my hard glued 250g silks but the tires were so different I don't know how much I was feeling the glue. Still, those training tires on 330g rims were a joy to ride! Even those or slightly heavier tires on 400g+ year 'round rims were a joy.

Dave Mayer

Summarizing my 45 years of experience on clinchers and tubulars:

• Flatting on tubulars: straighten you line and ride it out. Same flat on clinchers: terrifying life-threatening experience.
• I've ridden on a flat tubular for over a mile. Got the flat near the end of the ride, and just rode it carefully home. You don't do this on clinchers because you'll probably jam the tire or tube into the brakes, or slip out on the rim hooks, or destroy the rim.
• 20cc (20g) of Stan's injected into a tubular makes it almost impenetrable. You won't even notice 90% of the pinprick flats you would have otherwise had. Remove the valve core and inject. You'll now be able to run the tire until the cords are showing.
• Still get a flat on a tubular? Rip off the old tire, install the new and carefully ride home. No fast cornering or sideways skids. I've done 30+ miles on a basically unglued tubular. The glue residue on both the rim and the spare tire offers pretty good adhesion.

I think it's obvious that the tubular rim profile is inherently superior to any clincher - tubeless or otherwise. The two 'hooks' required to hold on the clincher tire are fragile, heavy (at the worst place on a bike) and they cause pinch flats. The tubular rim is lighter, stronger, easier to ride flat, and less susceptible to damage. A few grams of glue replaces the hooks: a far better solution for tire retention.

79pmooney

I just remembered a caution re: Tubasti - it gets softer at high temperatures. I rode and raced it in New England up to 100F with no issues except it was very soft when I blew a tire most of the way down Mt Washington when the rim was way too hot to touch. (Did the change and rode the spare back to Boston, no issues. And laying the tire on that soft Tubasti, that tire was glued on well!)

sincos

I think Dave Mayer got it pretty much spot on. You should use some sense and I wouldn't race a crit or go bombing down the Poggio like Sean Kelly, but a properly treated wheel and spare will have a lot of residual stick and you don't have to treat it like you're on ice. I've ridden dozens of miles on a spare more than once, in the hills, at a pretty good (but not max) pace. My issue with sewups is that they're a right PITA to repair. But swapping out a tire on the road is much quicker and easier than swapping out a tube on a clincher. These days I like more volume and lower pressure so I'm a convert to tubeless, but if your thing is skinny tires at high pressure, you could do a lot worse than tubulars.

urbanknight

Thanks for the heads up. It can get as high as 115F here, although I’ll usually aim to be done riding by noon on those days.