Zwift's 12 week ftp builder plan
01-17-18, 08:25 PM
#26
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I expect 2->3 to be a low number, 3->4 to be even lower, and 4+ to be never for the very vast majority.
The average untrained cyclist probably rides around at 10 mph on a MUT for 30 minutes.
Same can be said for any sort of endurance type event, I'd imagine.
My dad has ridden 2-4k miles a year for over a decade and recently got a Tacx Flux and did an ftp test... like 175 watts, or about 2.3 w/kg. And he's one of the faster guys in his club group (must have decent enough genes if mine are as well!
).
The average untrained cyclist probably rides around at 10 mph on a MUT for 30 minutes.
Same can be said for any sort of endurance type event, I'd imagine.
My dad has ridden 2-4k miles a year for over a decade and recently got a Tacx Flux and did an ftp test... like 175 watts, or about 2.3 w/kg. And he's one of the faster guys in his club group (must have decent enough genes if mine are as well!
).
01-17-18, 08:29 PM
#27
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I think the counter argument is thus: there are times in the year where you need lower stress levels. So you don't do super hard efforts and intervals. Hence periodization. TrainerRoad advocates this. I think this is pretty standard. You want to peak at certain points, and you can't do the exact same training year round.
People are criticizing training geared towards FTP improvement, reminds of the quip I hear from lots of guys. "I need to work on my sprint." Because they are pissed that they are never challenging for the win in the sprints. Well, maybe it's because you don't have the physiology for it. You didn't win sprints on the playground when you were a kid, maybe you won't ever win them.
People are criticizing training geared towards FTP improvement, reminds of the quip I hear from lots of guys. "I need to work on my sprint." Because they are pissed that they are never challenging for the win in the sprints. Well, maybe it's because you don't have the physiology for it. You didn't win sprints on the playground when you were a kid, maybe you won't ever win them.
Periodization isn't about not doing intervals. It's about moving from general fitness to specific fitness. Intervals can very much be a part of that, and different types of intervals very likely should be a part of that. I basically start doing some type of interval my first week back training in November or whenever I get tired of my fall-season KOM hunting.
I don't think anyone is criticizing ftp improvement. It's a tremendous piece of the puzzle. Doesn't matter if you're the sprinter to beat all sprinters, if you can't actually get up there in the sprint because you're too aerobically deficient, then you're not going to do well. 90+% of my local p/1/2 races end in breaks. If you can't get in that break, then you're going to have very few chances to do well, no matter how your sprint may be. That's down to ftp and aerobic fitness (and actual racing ability, but that's another topic).
01-17-18, 08:32 PM
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The average club cyclist is not going to be moving from 2.0-4.0 in their lifetimes, much less in a matter of years.
The average racer may make some headway, but again, not to 4.0. That's going to be an above average racer already. You're talking cat 3 (or will be soon) and above, most likely.
01-18-18, 06:10 AM
#29
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I believe there's something out there suggesting that 3.9 w/kg is something people that average person can get to, anything over that is much tougher: found it (Dr. Coggan writing on a slowtwitch thread back in 2010)
Let's do some figgerin'...
The average healthy but sedentary, college-aged male has a VO2max of approximately 45 mL/min/kg. However, I have seen it argued based on studies of, e.g., aboriginal tribes (and there are population data from Europe as well as military inductees here in the US to suppor the conclusion) that the "default" VO2max of the average human male is closer to 50 mL/min/kg, and the only way to get below this is to assume a couch-potato lifestyle, gain excess weight, etc. (and/or grow old, of course). So, I'll go with that latter number.
With short-term training, VO2max increases by 15-25% on average, with another perhaps 5-10% possible (on average, anyway) with more prolonged and/or intense training. That gives a total increase of 20-35%, so I'll go with 30% just for argument's sake.
So, if VO2max is, on average, 50 mL/min/kg and increases by, on average, 30%, that means that the average Joe ought to be able to raise their VO2max to about 65 mL/min/kg with training. Indeed, there are many, many, many, MANY amateur endurance athletes with VO2max values of around that number (not to mention the fact that athletes in team sports with an endurance component - e.g., soccer - often have a VO2max of around 60 mL/min/kg, something that is also true in other sports that you don't normally consider to be of an endurance nature, e.g., downhill skiing or motocross - i.e., motorcycle - racing).
The question then becomes, how high might functional threshold power fall as a percentage of VO2max (again, on average), and what does this translate to in terms of a power output? The answer to the former is about 80% (LT, on average, being about 75% of VO2max in trained cyclists), which means that in terms of O2 consumption, a functional threshold power corresponding to a VO2 of 65 mL/min/kg * 0.80 = 52 mL/min/kg could be considered average. If you then assume an average cycling economy of 0.075 W/min/kg per mL/min/kg, this equates to...
3.9 W/kg
The average healthy but sedentary, college-aged male has a VO2max of approximately 45 mL/min/kg. However, I have seen it argued based on studies of, e.g., aboriginal tribes (and there are population data from Europe as well as military inductees here in the US to suppor the conclusion) that the "default" VO2max of the average human male is closer to 50 mL/min/kg, and the only way to get below this is to assume a couch-potato lifestyle, gain excess weight, etc. (and/or grow old, of course). So, I'll go with that latter number.
With short-term training, VO2max increases by 15-25% on average, with another perhaps 5-10% possible (on average, anyway) with more prolonged and/or intense training. That gives a total increase of 20-35%, so I'll go with 30% just for argument's sake.
So, if VO2max is, on average, 50 mL/min/kg and increases by, on average, 30%, that means that the average Joe ought to be able to raise their VO2max to about 65 mL/min/kg with training. Indeed, there are many, many, many, MANY amateur endurance athletes with VO2max values of around that number (not to mention the fact that athletes in team sports with an endurance component - e.g., soccer - often have a VO2max of around 60 mL/min/kg, something that is also true in other sports that you don't normally consider to be of an endurance nature, e.g., downhill skiing or motocross - i.e., motorcycle - racing).
The question then becomes, how high might functional threshold power fall as a percentage of VO2max (again, on average), and what does this translate to in terms of a power output? The answer to the former is about 80% (LT, on average, being about 75% of VO2max in trained cyclists), which means that in terms of O2 consumption, a functional threshold power corresponding to a VO2 of 65 mL/min/kg * 0.80 = 52 mL/min/kg could be considered average. If you then assume an average cycling economy of 0.075 W/min/kg per mL/min/kg, this equates to...
3.9 W/kg
01-18-18, 07:15 AM
#30
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But what the average person will actually achieve? Not a chance. In real life, it just doesn't happen very often.
01-18-18, 10:02 AM
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Yeah I've done the math and if I hit my lightest possible weight and my best possible fitness at the same time, I'd be right at 4.0, but that's probably never going to happen. More realistic is 3.75. I'd consider myself to have decent but not great genetics; I've always been a pretty good all-around athlete but I got into endurance sports late and I'm pretty big for a cyclist even at my leanest.
Around here against the guys I'm racing (cat 3, masters 40+), I'd say 4.0 is extremely rare except for maybe a few really small guys.
Around here against the guys I'm racing (cat 3, masters 40+), I'd say 4.0 is extremely rare except for maybe a few really small guys.
01-18-18, 11:08 AM
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My best is just a hair over 4 w/kg (150lbs @175w) and I think I can hit 4.4. I've had a hip issue for the past 10 years that's affected my cycling and now that its under control, there's a big assumption on my part that is going to translate to power gains. It could, or it couldn't. I can't explain how painful the psoas and adductor muscles snapping over the femur feel, and how amazing it is that everything feels normal when I cycle.
The important thing isn't if I hit 4.4, its the carrot. All you can do is put in the work, and where you land is where you land.
The important thing isn't if I hit 4.4, its the carrot. All you can do is put in the work, and where you land is where you land.
01-18-18, 11:15 AM
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My best is just a hair over 4 w/kg (150lbs @175w) and I think I can hit 4.4. I've had a hip issue for the past 10 years that's affected my cycling and now that its under control, there's a big assumption on my part that is going to translate to power gains. It could, or it couldn't. I can't explain how painful the psoas and adductor muscles snapping over the femur feel, and how amazing it is that everything feels normal when I cycle.
The important thing isn't if I hit 4.4, its the carrot. All you can do is put in the work, and where you land is where you land.
The important thing isn't if I hit 4.4, its the carrot. All you can do is put in the work, and where you land is where you land.
01-18-18, 11:41 AM
#34
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My best is just a hair over 4 w/kg (150lbs @175w) and I think I can hit 4.4. I've had a hip issue for the past 10 years that's affected my cycling and now that its under control, there's a big assumption on my part that is going to translate to power gains. It could, or it couldn't. I can't explain how painful the psoas and adductor muscles snapping over the femur feel, and how amazing it is that everything feels normal when I cycle.
The important thing isn't if I hit 4.4, its the carrot. All you can do is put in the work, and where you land is where you land.
The important thing isn't if I hit 4.4, its the carrot. All you can do is put in the work, and where you land is where you land.
01-18-18, 11:50 AM
#35
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When I was doing my 60 minutes at 205 watts last night, I was wondering if I was better off not riding at all. And just resting. 205w would be about 72% of my FTP. That's something I struggle with. Figuring out volume vs. rest. And what role lower effort rides play.
01-18-18, 11:53 AM
#36
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My best is just a hair over 4 w/kg (150lbs @175w) and I think I can hit 4.4. I've had a hip issue for the past 10 years that's affected my cycling and now that its under control, there's a big assumption on my part that is going to translate to power gains. It could, or it couldn't. I can't explain how painful the psoas and adductor muscles snapping over the femur feel, and how amazing it is that everything feels normal when I cycle.
The important thing isn't if I hit 4.4, its the carrot. All you can do is put in the work, and where you land is where you land.
The important thing isn't if I hit 4.4, its the carrot. All you can do is put in the work, and where you land is where you land.
01-18-18, 12:06 PM
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I did my FTP test last nigh and it increased about 12%. While I was expecting it to be a little higher, considering I did other rides throughout the training block, I am happy with it.
I am curious about how my last bigger ride affected the test. Maybe should have pushed it back a day and done a soft spin of the legs.
Either way, for a newbie with structured training, I found this to be helpful. I'm ready to get back to racing though.
01-18-18, 12:10 PM
#38
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Yeah. I just finished the 4 week FTP booster. Dear lord. Some workout are not terribly difficult and others make me literally feel agony. You feel like a champ when you finish.
I did my FTP test last nigh and it increased about 12%. While I was expecting it to be a little higher, considering I did other rides throughout the training block, I am happy with it.
I am curious about how my last bigger ride affected the test. Maybe should have pushed it back a day and done a soft spin of the legs.
Either way, for a newbie with structured training, I found this to be helpful. I'm ready to get back to racing though.
I did my FTP test last nigh and it increased about 12%. While I was expecting it to be a little higher, considering I did other rides throughout the training block, I am happy with it.
I am curious about how my last bigger ride affected the test. Maybe should have pushed it back a day and done a soft spin of the legs.
Either way, for a newbie with structured training, I found this to be helpful. I'm ready to get back to racing though.
01-18-18, 01:27 PM
#43
Senior Member
another thing I debate is doing the Zwift races or Zwift group workouts or Zwift group rides vs doing these individual structured workouts. The individual workouts lose their "zwiftiness" because You don't have to pay attention to the road or anything. It's a solo workout. So I tend to watch sports. But when I am really suffering I can't pay attention to sports or dialogue on shows. So am I suffering for no good reason, and I'd be better off with mashing efforts in zwift races?
01-18-18, 01:53 PM
#44
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I never pay attention to anything in zwift. I use it to define the intervals, control the trainer, and record data. Close your eyes and listen to music. There's a bunch of spin-class playlist things that are remixed songs at high tempo.
01-18-18, 02:05 PM
#45
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When you're still relatively new (<5 years training, but maybe more), I think any and all endurance training you can get in is beneficial. On down the road, the more of that base you've built, the less overall training you can get away with and still be as good as you were. That's useful if you still like to race later on in life but don't have the time or desire to train as much.
With that said, I think there are a ton of junk miles, though, and I used to rack them up like noone's business. Group rides are the worst for that, but group rides can also be the most enjoyable and most useful in other regards, so you have to decide when to incorporate. I think slower, steadier rides (like easy rides or during winter) are best done on your own to minimize coasting and the like, and then race-sim rides extremely useful for learning when to hit it and how to recover in a pack. But that's more if you're time-crunched and trying to eek out the max benefit.
01-18-18, 02:10 PM
#46
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another thing I debate is doing the Zwift races or Zwift group workouts or Zwift group rides vs doing these individual structured workouts. The individual workouts lose their "zwiftiness" because You don't have to pay attention to the road or anything. It's a solo workout. So I tend to watch sports. But when I am really suffering I can't pay attention to sports or dialogue on shows. So am I suffering for no good reason, and I'd be better off with mashing efforts in zwift races?
But if you're continually maxing out and then soft pedaling when you're supposed to be maintaining a steadier higher aerobic effort, then individual or group workouts may be more effective.
Just a matter of getting the work done however you can.
01-18-18, 02:55 PM
#47
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Doh! Yes 275.
I use an SI Belt; although I find a canvas d-ring belt is just as (if not more) effective and easier to manage. There's no detriment to using it so I would try it out and see if it helps. Best case you use a belt you already own and can put more than 5 lbs of pressure in that area. This video should help a bit more:
Hopefully we do over being 3's in a few months!
I've been a trash racer, arguably the worst in USAC. Hopefully I can change that. When I've hit those numbers an injury in my left leg soon followed so I've rarely raced on form.
I've been a trash racer, arguably the worst in USAC. Hopefully I can change that. When I've hit those numbers an injury in my left leg soon followed so I've rarely raced on form.
01-18-18, 03:26 PM
#48
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I just did the 4 week booster. Although it took me close to 6 weeks to complete because I did other outdoor rides. I can't imagine doing the 10-12 week one. The 4 week booster has hardly any rest days. Like I said, super new to this structured training thing. Zwift is helping me learn some training skills for sure. I like how it explains what you are doing and why.
01-18-18, 05:49 PM
#49
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+ 1 million
For crits I would work on pack skills (how to be an aggressive wheel sucker) first if you have some god given talent for sprinting. Crits are too short for FTP to be a determining factor unless yours is so huge that you can solo off the front and lap the field. I saw Phil Gaimon do that in a Pro 1-2 crit so it can be done, but that is not a strategy for most of us.
For road racing FTP is more important, but unless you can solo off the front with 1 km or more to go it won't be enough in and of itself. A good FTP will allow you to make a few mistakes in a road race and still be competitive at the end as long as you have other skills.
I am old school and no longer train, but I found that raising FTP required both a push and a pull. When I would train for this (after base and before sprint training) I would do a couple of sweet spot rides for 1.5 to 2 hours every week and one day of 2 x 20's or ZeCannon intervals. ZeCannon intervals are 6 sets of 5 minutes "on" and one minute off with the "on" part just enough above your FTP level that you can complete all 6 sets. The last one had me with exercised induced Tourette's syndrome.
For crits I would work on pack skills (how to be an aggressive wheel sucker) first if you have some god given talent for sprinting. Crits are too short for FTP to be a determining factor unless yours is so huge that you can solo off the front and lap the field. I saw Phil Gaimon do that in a Pro 1-2 crit so it can be done, but that is not a strategy for most of us.
For road racing FTP is more important, but unless you can solo off the front with 1 km or more to go it won't be enough in and of itself. A good FTP will allow you to make a few mistakes in a road race and still be competitive at the end as long as you have other skills.
I am old school and no longer train, but I found that raising FTP required both a push and a pull. When I would train for this (after base and before sprint training) I would do a couple of sweet spot rides for 1.5 to 2 hours every week and one day of 2 x 20's or ZeCannon intervals. ZeCannon intervals are 6 sets of 5 minutes "on" and one minute off with the "on" part just enough above your FTP level that you can complete all 6 sets. The last one had me with exercised induced Tourette's syndrome.
01-18-18, 05:57 PM
#50
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So I've read that being at your most fit is also right at the edge of overtraining. Late Dec, after completing the FTP Builder, FTP Booster and just starting TrainerRoad's high volume SS base, I hit a 20 minute power of 323W or approx. 3.5 w/kg. I was feeling super motivated starting into the 3rd week of TR, but not so motivated by the end of it, so I rolled an early recovery week into the schedule. That really didn't help the attitude at all tho', so this week I've called it quits completely, the final straw being that I couldn't even properly complete the week's final 2-hr workout which includes five 10 minute intervals at 240W. By the fifth interval, I could barely turn 200W @ 60rpm. I also do approx. 6-7 hours of calisthenics a week and I've cut that out for the week too. All in all, not a pleasant way to discover your limits.
Keith
Keith