Disc brakes are now the default on road bikes – and no one cares
#201
Senior Member
Agree whole-heartedly with the last point. That said, rim brakes HAVE evolved and improved. Today’s rim bakes are 1000% better than those of 20-30 years ago and even noticeably better than in the 2000’s. There are also direct-mount rim brakes which are a notable improvement. I’d submit that precisely BECAUSE mediocre rim brakes work just fine is why THEY should prevail. Improperly bled hydraulic discs, ones that get a bubble in the line (come on, how many of us have more than one bike hung upside down in the garage! ), ones where you’ve touched the lever with the wheel out (horrors!), ones that you didn’t cover with a plastic bag when you cleaned or lubed your bike, or one with even a slightly tweaked rotor, etc. etc. DON’T.
Thanks for agreeing with what was the most important part.
#202
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: coastal NC,USA
Posts: 5
Bikes: Three Bianchis,Fuji fixed(sold),assorted others
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
There is really no downside to disc.(except grams) , but I still prefer rim brakes for looks. But I'm an old guy. Now get off my lawn
#203
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,935
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3942 Post(s)
Liked 7,279 Times
in
2,940 Posts
#204
Senior Member
Brakes
I'm still trying to decide if Center pull or Side pull brakes are better. I'm hoping to enter the 21st Century soon.
#205
Senior Member
Disc brakes are now the default on road bikes – and no one cares
Pure climbers are winning on disc brake bikes and no one cares, so has the argument been settled?
Last weekend, Nairo Quintana blazed up the notorious 10km climb to Chalet Reynard on Mont Ventoux, to win stage three of the Tour de la Provence and take the overall race lead.
After the stage, chatter across the cycling media was focused almost entirely on the return to form of a rider whose star has waned slightly in recent years. What didn’t warrant a mention, however, was that Quintana rode a bike equipped with disc brakes.
Bike Radar
Pure climbers are winning on disc brake bikes and no one cares, so has the argument been settled?
Last weekend, Nairo Quintana blazed up the notorious 10km climb to Chalet Reynard on Mont Ventoux, to win stage three of the Tour de la Provence and take the overall race lead.
After the stage, chatter across the cycling media was focused almost entirely on the return to form of a rider whose star has waned slightly in recent years. What didn’t warrant a mention, however, was that Quintana rode a bike equipped with disc brakes.
Bike Radar
1) Carbon rims need disc brakes to be safe and avoid undue wear.
2) Disc brakes are heavier, require stronger stays and forks because they are not centered, the braking force tends to torque the frame, and it is annoying to change wheels.
3) If you have a hydraulic leak you are toast.
4) Direct mount rim brakes on alloy rims is a newer solution. They are much stronger and effective than the old style brakes. The weight difference between carbon wheels and alloy wheels and the weight of the disk brakes and the heavier stays and forks end up making the carbon wheels of questionable value unless you are a racer.
5) Direct mount rim brakes have an inherent mechanical advantage over disc brakes. The force it takes to stop a rotating force at 3 or 4 inches is many times that of a rim brake at 12 inches from center.
6) Disc brakes are clodish and ugly. There is nothing remotely elegant about them. The frame connections are ugly.
7) Disk brakes and carbon wheels push the cost of a bike up dramatically.
One major problem with direct mount rim brakes is that you can not just put them on any bike. The frame has to have the connections built in to the fork and stays. See the photos below.
Last edited by Johnk3; 02-24-20 at 05:19 PM.
#206
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,922
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,882 Times
in
998 Posts
This raises several issues.
1) Carbon rims need disc brakes to be safe and avoid undue wear.
2) Disc brakes are heavier, require stronger stays and forks because they are not centered, the braking force tends to torque the frame, and it is annoying to change wheels.
3) If you have a hydraulic leak you are toast.
4) Direct mount rim brakes on alloy rims is a newer solution. They are much stronger and effective than the old style brakes. The weight difference between carbon wheels and alloy wheels and the weight of the disk brakes and the heavier stays and forks end up making the carbon wheels of questionable value unless you are a racer.
5) Direct mount rim brakes have an inherent mechanical advantage over disc brakes. The force it takes to stop a rotating force at 3 or 4 inches is many times that of a rim brake at 12 inches from center.
6) Disc brakes are clodish and ugly. There is nothing remotely elegant about them. The frame connections are ugly.
7) Disk brakes and carbon wheels push the cost of a bike up dramatically.
1) Carbon rims need disc brakes to be safe and avoid undue wear.
2) Disc brakes are heavier, require stronger stays and forks because they are not centered, the braking force tends to torque the frame, and it is annoying to change wheels.
3) If you have a hydraulic leak you are toast.
4) Direct mount rim brakes on alloy rims is a newer solution. They are much stronger and effective than the old style brakes. The weight difference between carbon wheels and alloy wheels and the weight of the disk brakes and the heavier stays and forks end up making the carbon wheels of questionable value unless you are a racer.
5) Direct mount rim brakes have an inherent mechanical advantage over disc brakes. The force it takes to stop a rotating force at 3 or 4 inches is many times that of a rim brake at 12 inches from center.
6) Disc brakes are clodish and ugly. There is nothing remotely elegant about them. The frame connections are ugly.
7) Disk brakes and carbon wheels push the cost of a bike up dramatically.
Likes For noodle soup:
#207
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,890
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4788 Post(s)
Liked 3,914 Times
in
2,545 Posts
The old Mafac centerpull (and cantilever) brakes are still pretty good. I use RACERs as from brake for my winter/city/rain bikes and they are stoppers. For pads I use the ubiquitous KoolStops and for levers I use Tektro road, To get the same feel I use Weinmann (I believe; they are Schwinn approved) CPs on back. With full length rear housing, they have the same "squish" as the Mafac fronts and far less power so I don't get lockup on very hard stops.
#208
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,631
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4729 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
I can only say it was a nice uphill drive when I visited the area on a non-bike trip... but boy that seemed long even in a car :-)
Likes For Sy Reene:
#209
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,935
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3942 Post(s)
Liked 7,279 Times
in
2,940 Posts
#210
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,785
Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1079 Post(s)
Liked 1,017 Times
in
719 Posts
I eagerly await your pictures or links to pictures of a modern style dual pivot that's 90 years old. When shimano 600 came out you are right they used single pivot and you can read what I said that way. What I was actually saying was that when shimano came out with dual pivots the shimano 600 version that I bought were much better then any previous brake. And no, most old rim brakes, no matter how well you set them up were crap, the materials are by modern standards subpar and the means of mounting, quality of the pad rubber, actual engineering, etc were not up to the task of a decent stopping job. To attempt to claim that being happy with the stopping power of a modern ultegra dual pivot would somehow equate to being happy with any previous version of rim brake is absurd and makes your arguments sound ludicrous. quality V-brakes and dual pivots came into existence and stuck around because of their obvious superiority. Just like disc are here to stay.
Likes For Russ Roth:
#211
Senior Member
#213
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,935
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3942 Post(s)
Liked 7,279 Times
in
2,940 Posts
That disc brake frame weighs only 4g more the rim brake version. That's less than a 0.5% difference.
Yeah, I'm sure that's why they do it.
But I am a steel guy and believe that one reason for the tour bikes being large diameter carbon is the increase in advertising space for their name.
#214
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
This raises several issues.
1) Carbon rims need disc brakes to be safe and avoid undue wear.
2) Disc brakes are heavier, require stronger stays and forks because they are not centered, the braking force tends to torque the frame, and it is annoying to change wheels.
3) If you have a hydraulic leak you are toast.
4) Direct mount rim brakes on alloy rims is a newer solution. They are much stronger and effective than the old style brakes. The weight difference between carbon wheels and alloy wheels and the weight of the disk brakes and the heavier stays and forks end up making the carbon wheels of questionable value unless you are a racer.
5) Direct mount rim brakes have an inherent mechanical advantage over disc brakes. The force it takes to stop a rotating force at 3 or 4 inches is many times that of a rim brake at 12 inches from center.
6) Disc brakes are clodish and ugly. There is nothing remotely elegant about them. The frame connections are ugly.
7) Disk brakes and carbon wheels push the cost of a bike up dramatically.
One major problem with direct mount rim brakes is that you can not just put them on any bike. The frame has to have the connections built in to the fork and stays. See the photos below.
1) Carbon rims need disc brakes to be safe and avoid undue wear.
2) Disc brakes are heavier, require stronger stays and forks because they are not centered, the braking force tends to torque the frame, and it is annoying to change wheels.
3) If you have a hydraulic leak you are toast.
4) Direct mount rim brakes on alloy rims is a newer solution. They are much stronger and effective than the old style brakes. The weight difference between carbon wheels and alloy wheels and the weight of the disk brakes and the heavier stays and forks end up making the carbon wheels of questionable value unless you are a racer.
5) Direct mount rim brakes have an inherent mechanical advantage over disc brakes. The force it takes to stop a rotating force at 3 or 4 inches is many times that of a rim brake at 12 inches from center.
6) Disc brakes are clodish and ugly. There is nothing remotely elegant about them. The frame connections are ugly.
7) Disk brakes and carbon wheels push the cost of a bike up dramatically.
One major problem with direct mount rim brakes is that you can not just put them on any bike. The frame has to have the connections built in to the fork and stays. See the photos below.
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
#215
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,631
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4729 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
The pessimist in me says that the bike makers are making the rim brake versions heavier than they need to be, just so they can make these kinds of claims. But I'm partially insane.
Likes For Sy Reene:
#216
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,922
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,882 Times
in
998 Posts
To be totally honest, I had no brakes after that, but it happened on a FG bike.
#217
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,631
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4729 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
Likes For Sy Reene:
#219
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,631
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4729 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
Likes For Sy Reene:
#220
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,246
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8259 Post(s)
Liked 8,980 Times
in
4,451 Posts
Have seen other road bike wheels with a failed brake track.
Likes For big john:
#221
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,246
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8259 Post(s)
Liked 8,980 Times
in
4,451 Posts
I've had 4 bikes with cantilever brakes, still have one sitting in the garage. Cantilever brakes suck, vee-brakes are way better. I have Mavic caliper brakes on my main bike and they are way better than any cantilever brake I've ever used.
#222
Senior Member
A while back I was talking to my local LBS owner and racer type about a very steep hill that was used for a time trial. I asked how do you get back down? He laughed and said "You sure don't want to try that on a Walmart bike put together by a 15 year old kid."
#223
Senior Member
I eagerly await your pictures or links to pictures of a modern style dual pivot that's 90 years old. When shimano 600 came out you are right they used single pivot and you can read what I said that way. What I was actually saying was that when shimano came out with dual pivots the shimano 600 version that I bought were much better then any previous brake. And no, most old rim brakes, no matter how well you set them up were crap, the materials are by modern standards subpar and the means of mounting, quality of the pad rubber, actual engineering, etc were not up to the task of a decent stopping job. To attempt to claim that being happy with the stopping power of a modern ultegra dual pivot would somehow equate to being happy with any previous version of rim brake is absurd and makes your arguments sound ludicrous. quality V-brakes and dual pivots came into existence and stuck around because of their obvious superiority. Just like disc are here to stay.
What "better " seems to mean to people who like their "modern" dual pivots is only that less force is needed at the lever. I don't subscribe to the idea that those with no hand strength at all should even be attempting to ride down the mountain. Strength is needed to control every other part of the bike. If you ain't got it you should not be there. Or at least you should ride slow.
Better materials than the forged arms of a Mafac brake? They last forever, do not wear out. Older Weinmanns the same, they just do not wear out. Yes, you can set them up so as to sabotage them and get very poor performance. Failure rate on these archaic dual pivot brakes is essentially zero. Anyone ever see one broken? Millions and millions of calipers made and they all work. Proven track record of these parts is stunning. No one, no one at all is going to be using any current production bike part 60 or 70 years from now. All of it landfill in progress.
On mountain descents where the pavement remains same as it was there is no change in how long it takes to get from peak to valley for 65 years now. If you want to like a brake because it feels good to you, fine, you don't need any more reason than that. That there is a night and day difference in function is rubbish. What the rider does is in every case far more important than what brake is on the bike. Last time there was a change in brakes that made a difference was 1953. Since then the best brakes of the day have all been more than good enough. The rider rides the bike. The kit does not operate the bike.
#224
Senior Member
The frame for a disc bike does not weigh much more than a rim bike frame, but according to road.cc the rotors, fluid, calipers etc. can add up to a pound more than a rim brake bike for the whole disc bike.
Last edited by Johnk3; 02-24-20 at 08:24 PM.
#225
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Disc brakes
No denying that discs have advantages to rim brakes, primarily in the wet...and no wear on your trims. BUT, I have at least 6 pair of different wheels that I like to switch out for different reasons between my different bikes--but you can't do that unless all your wheels are discs. Not to mention more maintenance then good calipers--and more weight too.