63rickert

Direct mount brakes have been available at least 90 years. Some recent rim brakes are harder to mess up but they have so many other mechanical problems I'll stick with old ones.

Thanks for agreeing with what was the most important part.

sloman

There is really no downside to disc.(except grams) , but I still prefer rim brakes for looks. But I'm an old guy. Now get off my lawn

tomato coupe

There are a lot of old cyclists, and a lot of clouds in the sky ...

LeftyS7

I'm still trying to decide if Center pull or Side pull brakes are better. I'm hoping to enter the 21st Century soon.

Johnk3

This raises several issues.
1) Carbon rims need disc brakes to be safe and avoid undue wear.
2) Disc brakes are heavier, require stronger stays and forks because they are not centered, the braking force tends to torque the frame, and it is annoying to change wheels.
3) If you have a hydraulic leak you are toast.
4) Direct mount rim brakes on alloy rims is a newer solution. They are much stronger and effective than the old style brakes. The weight difference between carbon wheels and alloy wheels and the weight of the disk brakes and the heavier stays and forks end up making the carbon wheels of questionable value unless you are a racer.
5) Direct mount rim brakes have an inherent mechanical advantage over disc brakes. The force it takes to stop a rotating force at 3 or 4 inches is many times that of a rim brake at 12 inches from center.
6) Disc brakes are clodish and ugly. There is nothing remotely elegant about them. The frame connections are ugly.
7) Disk brakes and carbon wheels push the cost of a bike up dramatically.

One major problem with direct mount rim brakes is that you can not just put them on any bike. The frame has to have the connections built in to the fork and stays. See the photos below.

noodle soup

that’s a lot of horse**** for one post.

79pmooney

The old Mafac centerpull (and cantilever) brakes are still pretty good. I use RACERs as from brake for my winter/city/rain bikes and they are stoppers. For pads I use the ubiquitous KoolStops and for levers I use Tektro road, To get the same feel I use Weinmann (I believe; they are Schwinn approved) CPs on back. With full length rear housing, they have the same "squish" as the Mafac fronts and far less power so I don't get lockup on very hard stops.

Sy Reene

I can only say it was a nice uphill drive when I visited the area on a non-bike trip... but boy that seemed long even in a car :-)

tomato coupe

Do these stays and fork look big and heavy to you?

Russ Roth

I eagerly await your pictures or links to pictures of a modern style dual pivot that's 90 years old. When shimano 600 came out you are right they used single pivot and you can read what I said that way. What I was actually saying was that when shimano came out with dual pivots the shimano 600 version that I bought were much better then any previous brake. And no, most old rim brakes, no matter how well you set them up were crap, the materials are by modern standards subpar and the means of mounting, quality of the pad rubber, actual engineering, etc were not up to the task of a decent stopping job. To attempt to claim that being happy with the stopping power of a modern ultegra dual pivot would somehow equate to being happy with any previous version of rim brake is absurd and makes your arguments sound ludicrous. quality V-brakes and dual pivots came into existence and stuck around because of their obvious superiority. Just like disc are here to stay.

Johnk3

Stronger and heavier does not necessarily mean larger. But I am a steel guy and believe that one reason for the tour bikes being large diameter carbon is the increase in advertising space for their name.

noodle soup

It’s long, but not very steep.

Next time I’ll get one of those behind the saddle bottle holders.

tomato coupe

That disc brake frame weighs only 4g more the rim brake version. That's less than a 0.5% difference.
Yeah, I'm sure that's why they do it.

Seattle Forrest

​​​​​​Have you ever heard of anyone getting a hydraulic leak on a bike? There are a lot of hypothetical things that could go wrong. Metal rims could fail from wear on there brake tracks. I've actually heard if that happening to somebody.

Sy Reene

The pessimist in me says that the bike makers are making the rim brake versions heavier than they need to be, just so they can make these kinds of claims. But I'm partially insane.

noodle soup

I’ve had the end of a brake cable snap off once, but I still stopped safely.

To be totally honest, I had no brakes after that, but it happened on a FG bike.

Sy Reene

I was most impressed by the fact when I left town (tuscon) it was a nice ~60 degrees... and at the top of Mt Lemmon, the ski lifts were operating

noodle soup

Only partially?

Sy Reene

It's hard to answer that question because I'm not sure which voice to listen to.

big john

I was with a guy when his brake track blew off, it sounded like a gunshot. When I used to mtb in snow a lot I would wear through brake tracks regularly.
Have seen other road bike wheels with a failed brake track.

big john

I've had 4 bikes with cantilever brakes, still have one sitting in the garage. Cantilever brakes suck, vee-brakes are way better. I have Mavic caliper brakes on my main bike and they are way better than any cantilever brake I've ever used.

Johnk3

That is quite true. It is hypothetical. But I worry that now that disc brakes are the norm on almost every level of bike, that inexperienced bike mechanics may change that.

A while back I was talking to my local LBS owner and racer type about a very steep hill that was used for a time trial. I asked how do you get back down? He laughed and said "You sure don't want to try that on a Walmart bike put together by a 15 year old kid."

63rickert

Obviously there is no "modern style" brake that is 90 years old. What kind of question is that? There are two pivot cantis at least from 1929. Two pivots is two pivots. In the "modern style" the arms move inexorably to center and simply crucify the rim. Then rapid rim wear becomes a reason for using discs. Only works well when the rim and frame are more perfect than can reasonably be expected. Needs every part of system in perfect alignment and needs every part to remain in perfect alignment. Bikes aren't like that.

What "better " seems to mean to people who like their "modern" dual pivots is only that less force is needed at the lever. I don't subscribe to the idea that those with no hand strength at all should even be attempting to ride down the mountain. Strength is needed to control every other part of the bike. If you ain't got it you should not be there. Or at least you should ride slow.

Better materials than the forged arms of a Mafac brake? They last forever, do not wear out. Older Weinmanns the same, they just do not wear out. Yes, you can set them up so as to sabotage them and get very poor performance. Failure rate on these archaic dual pivot brakes is essentially zero. Anyone ever see one broken? Millions and millions of calipers made and they all work. Proven track record of these parts is stunning. No one, no one at all is going to be using any current production bike part 60 or 70 years from now. All of it landfill in progress.

On mountain descents where the pavement remains same as it was there is no change in how long it takes to get from peak to valley for 65 years now. If you want to like a brake because it feels good to you, fine, you don't need any more reason than that. That there is a night and day difference in function is rubbish. What the rider does is in every case far more important than what brake is on the bike. Last time there was a change in brakes that made a difference was 1953. Since then the best brakes of the day have all been more than good enough. The rider rides the bike. The kit does not operate the bike.

Johnk3

I was being my typical cynical and facetious self. But, only half so. I do think the big bike companies spend a lot of time and effort into what their bikes look like and how prominent their name is displayed. After all, advertising is one of the major reasons a bike company would want their bikes used by a team in the tour.

The frame for a disc bike does not weigh much more than a rim bike frame, but according to road.cc the rotors, fluid, calipers etc. can add up to a pound more than a rim brake bike for the whole disc bike.

Tom B.

No denying that discs have advantages to rim brakes, primarily in the wet...and no wear on your trims. BUT, I have at least 6 pair of different wheels that I like to switch out for different reasons between my different bikes--but you can't do that unless all your wheels are discs. Not to mention more maintenance then good calipers--and more weight too.