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For those who stopped group rides over Covid ..

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For those who stopped group rides over Covid ..

Old 03-19-21, 07:28 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
The irony is astounding.
You preach about group trust yet don’t trust members of your own group without a silly ‘vaccinated’ badge lmao.
The best part though is that the nature of the vaccine is that you are safe. You can still transmit to others who are not vaccinated though so have no idea where you are going with the ‘we are safe to be near’ silliness.

The problem is you don’t know what you don’t know. Best current knowledge, vaccination gives us lots of hope. However there are many unsansered questions; do vaccinated people still have the ability to transmit the virus.; does the virus provide protection against numerous variants?

So as we work through this and get better information, a bit of patience appears to be highly warranted.
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Old 03-19-21, 07:36 PM
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And just a bit of context, we rightfully rail against the number of cyclists killed in vehicle accidents. The number of people,succumbing to Covid is just about 1000 times higher. Covid deaths are more per year than heart disease, motor vehicle fatalites, and gun violence,combined.

There’s Hope on the horizon however. Depending on the level of vaccine acceptance, and how the vaccine works against variants, the pandemic will at least morph to a manageable epidemic disease. We need to be patient just a bit longer.
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Old 03-19-21, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by IdahoSpud View Post
Not seeing a good risk/reward ratio for group activities yet, even with vaccines becoming more widely available.

Nobody knows the long-term effects of either a Covid-19 infection or an injection of a mRNA vaccine. Anyone telling you different either has a time machine, or is making statements based on assumptions, not clinical observations over a period of years.

The momentary emotional payoff of a fun day - to me - is not worth either the well-known short-term health risk, nor the unknown long-term health risk. I will continue to ride solo, and maintain an objective and watchful attitude towards both the virus and the vaccines. When I'm convinced the vax is safe, I'll get it.

FWIW, I am not anti-vax. I'm current on everything, including a recent booster for whooping cough and Hep B for first responder at work. But I'm not a lab rat.

I’ll grant you no one knows for a certainty the long term risks of Covid vaccines. As Economists are want joke in the long term we’re all dead. So if we want absolute certaint, we could study mRNA vaccines for 50 years and report back. However, millions of people would die in the interim.

What we do know for a certainty is that 1 in 600 Americans have already died, trillions of dollars, in economicloss has occurred Doingg nothing these numbers will multiplied a number of times over.

On the other hand, we also know, about 200 years of using vaccines, and the actual studies of these vaccines strongly suggest any risk of these vaccines is deminimis compared to the risk of going unvaccinated.

It’s just ridiculous to cavil about some theoretical long term risk that might be 1 in a million many years from now, when millions are dying right now, tens of millions are losing jobs, hundreds of millions are suffering emotionally, and we actually have the a tool to reverse that.
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Old 03-20-21, 12:29 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
The problem is you donít know what you donít know. Best current knowledge, vaccination gives us lots of hope. However there are many unsansered questions; do vaccinated people still have the ability to transmit the virus.; does the virus provide protection against numerous variants?

So as we work through this and get better information, a bit of patience appears to be highly warranted.
No need to worry any longer.
We have stickers.
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Old 03-20-21, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Iíll grant you no one knows for a certainty the long term risks of Covid vaccines. As Economists are want joke in the long term weíre all dead. So if we want absolute certaint, we could study mRNA vaccines for 50 years and report back. However, millions of people would die in the interim.

What we do know for a certainty is that 1 in 600 Americans have already died, trillions of dollars, in economicloss has occurred Doingg nothing these numbers will multiplied a number of times over.

On the other hand, we also know, about 200 years of using vaccines, and the actual studies of these vaccines strongly suggest any risk of these vaccines is deminimis compared to the risk of going unvaccinated.

Itís just ridiculous to cavil about some theoretical long term risk that might be 1 in a million many years from now, when millions are dying right now, tens of millions are losing jobs, hundreds of millions are suffering emotionally, and we actually have the a tool to reverse that.
I am not telling anyone to take - or not to take - a shot of mRNA vaccine. I am saying that *my* personal preference is to observe what happens to those who have opted to be vaccinated with it. I *will not* be coerced, shamed or frightened into any behavior, including this.

As I also pointed out, I am current on vaccinations that have completed actual clinical trials, so don't straw-man the actual point I that am making - which is that none of these vaccines have completed trials for safety and efficacy among the general population. There are reasons for clinical trials, and I hope it's understood what those reasons are.

Another straw-man argument is the notion that we need to wait for "absolute certainty" and "studying mRNA vaccines for 50 years" before deploying be them. I'd consider successful completion of clinical trials to be *the* legitimate yardstick for a new vaccine, and nothing less. Those should be completed in 2024, if I recall correctly.

I reserve the right to protect my health as I see fit, and cast no judgements on how others protect (or don't) theirs. Again, anyone telling you that a brand-new (not 200 years old) vaccination method is long-term safe is lying. They. Don't. Know. They are making an assumption.

There have been some rather unpleasant historical vaccine incidents, many of which have been memory-holed.

The most recent incident is the clotting issue with the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine, which prompted several nations to abandon it. Please note that this is an immediate, not a long-term medical complication. Again, nobody *knows* if there are other, long-term issues with any of these vaccines.

Here is a long-term medical complication caused by a vaccine that was also rushed out the door and foisted on the public. The NIH should be a reputable enough source of information.

Then there was the Cutter Incident, another hasty vaccination ramp-up, in which 120,000 children were accidentally given vaccine containing live virulent poliovirus.

I probably don't need to remind about the 1976 swine flu debacle and the vaccine that caused many cases of what is now recognized as Guillaume-Barre syndrome.

Actually, just go to the CDC website here and they have a comprehensive list of various oopsies with vaccines over the years - many of which are quite recent.

If anyone feels like taking the plunge with a vaccine that hasn't been through trials, they can go right ahead. I would not pass judgement, and I fully understand their desire to get back to normal.

Realistically though, we should be prepared to acknowledge that the world and society have changed in significant and unfathomable ways that we don't yet comprehend, and there may not be such a thing as "back to normal".

Lastly, I refuse to take anyone's word that a vaccine which has been granted emergency use authorization is safe. One of these approved vaccines has already been pulled - thus proving my point that nobody knows whether they are safe or not - even in the short-term.

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Old 03-20-21, 02:58 AM
  #56  
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The last time I cycled with my local group was February 2020. They officially ended group rides mid March 2020, but the texts going back and forth discussed I'll be riding solo starting here in case anyone wanted to know. I wasn't participating in that. Almost every weekend for the past year, I'd start my ride earlier and wave as we passed each other. Sometimes they'd catch up to me and pass me-- it was tempting to ride with them for a half mile or a mile, but I'd drop back when I thought of my wife, others in my life and admittedly myself.

I did ride the GFNY Sebring in October 2020. I had registered for it before COVID was declared a pandemic, but they would not refund my registration. They also assured me there would be social distancing at the registration and in the corals. They lied. The registration was in a small community center. Everyone was required to wear a mask, but we were standing shoulder to shoulder-- that's not social distancing. I should have walked out and requested that someone bring my packet to me outside. In all fairness, I did ride in a group without a mask that day. I was concerned for two weeks-- that's been my only group ride since February 2020.

Currently, my wife and I are fully vaccinated, and a large majority of people I work with are vaccinated too. So tomorrow, I plan to return to my local group by participating in my local cycling club's annual event. I'm primarily riding with my friend who is also vaccinated, but we all know that others will join us or we may join others from time to time. I finally feel comfortable riding with others. It's not perfect, but I'm finally comfortable with it.
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Old 03-20-21, 09:59 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by IdahoSpud View Post
I am not telling anyone to take - or not to take - a shot of mRNA vaccine. I am saying that *my* personal preference is to observe what happens to those who have opted to be vaccinated with it. I *will not* be coerced, shamed or frightened into any behavior, including this.

As I also pointed out, I am current on vaccinations that have completed actual clinical trials, so don't straw-man the actual point I that am making - which is that none of these vaccines have completed trials for safety and efficacy among the general population. There are reasons for clinical trials, and I hope it's understood what those reasons are.

Another straw-man argument is the notion that we need to wait for "absolute certainty" and "studying mRNA vaccines for 50 years" before deploying be them. I'd consider successful completion of clinical trials to be *the* legitimate yardstick for a new vaccine, and nothing less. Those should be completed in 2024, if I recall correctly.

I reserve the right to protect my health as I see fit, and cast no judgements on how others protect (or don't) theirs. Again, anyone telling you that a brand-new (not 200 years old) vaccination method is long-term safe is lying. They. Don't. Know. They are making an assumption.

There have been some rather unpleasant historical vaccine incidents, many of which have been memory-holed.

The most recent incident is the clotting issue with the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine, which prompted several nations to abandon it. Please note that this is an immediate, not a long-term medical complication. Again, nobody *knows* if there are other, long-term issues with any of these vaccines.

Here is a long-term medical complication caused by a vaccine that was also rushed out the door and foisted on the public. The NIH should be a reputable enough source of information.

Then there was the Cutter Incident, another hasty vaccination ramp-up, in which 120,000 children were accidentally given vaccine containing live virulent poliovirus.

I probably don't need to remind about the 1976 swine flu debacle and the vaccine that caused many cases of what is now recognized as Guillaume-Barre syndrome.

Actually, just go to the CDC website here and they have a comprehensive list of various oopsies with vaccines over the years - many of which are quite recent.

If anyone feels like taking the plunge with a vaccine that hasn't been through trials, they can go right ahead. I would not pass judgement, and I fully understand their desire to get back to normal.

Realistically though, we should be prepared to acknowledge that the world and society have changed in significant and unfathomable ways that we don't yet comprehend, and there may not be such a thing as "back to normal".

Lastly, I refuse to take anyone's word that a vaccine which has been granted emergency use authorization is safe. One of these approved vaccines has already been pulled - thus proving my point that nobody knows whether they are safe or not - even in the short-term.

Then, please stay out of public spaces. No vaccine is 100% effective, and we donít know the efficacy against newly emergent variants. Add in the fact some people canít get vaccinated. So public health depends on the herd effect which allows a less than 100 percent effective vaccine to still provide a very high level of protection for a community if the vast majority of the community is vaccinated.

Sp youíre free to not get vaccinated, but please stay away from my group ride, the restaurant I eat in, the concert I attend and the plane I will eventually fly on again.

Y​​​​​​our freedom also comes with responsibility.
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Old 03-20-21, 10:06 AM
  #58  
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As for the clotting issue with the Astra Zeneca vaccine, the EU has found no evidence of a link, the number of people who have died from clotting is in the one in a million range, and the shear number of people vaccinated would indicate that many of those clots would have occurred anyway.

But for the sake of argument, assume the vaccine caused the clots, and you have at most maybe a one in million chance of death, weigh that against the 1 in 600 people who have already died, and your argument is about the worst risk balancing decision in history.

it’s also grossly irresponsible to assert these vaccines have not been tested. The same tests done for all vaccines were done on these vaccines, simply fast tracked working in parallel tracks, real time review, and manufacturing vaccine to stockpile, before approval. That was how approvals sped up, not by skipping steps.

and now in addition to the trials and independent reviews, we have over 100 million real world
data points. So please exercise your freedom, but don’t spread misinformation which if followed makes us all less safe.
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Old 03-20-21, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Then, please stay out of public spaces. No vaccine is 100% effective, and we don’t know the efficacy against newly emergent variants. Add in the fact some people can’t get vaccinated. So public health depends on the herd effect which allows a less than 100 percent effective vaccine to still provide a very high level of protection for a community if the vast majority of the community is vaccinated.

Sp you’re free to not get vaccinated, but please stay away from my group ride, the restaurant I eat in, the concert I attend and the plane I will eventually fly on again.

Y​​​​​​our freedom also comes with responsibility.
The not-so-subtle insinuation is that I'm not social distancing. That insinuation is incorrect, so you have no worries on that account. I doubt that I'd care much for your company anyway, because I'm not the kind of person who enjoys being around a scold.

As I said in a previous post, I have no desire to experience medical issues caused by a Covid infection, nor from a vaccine that under normal circumstances would be several years away from acceptance.

My sincere apologies, but glib pronouncements from medical figureheads, politicians, and forum posters don't cut it with me. Clinical data does, and I have the patience and situational ability to wait for that data.

If you could point out any "misinformation" in this thread - other than your own hyperbole - "study mRNA vaccines for 50 years" - I'd appreciate it.

Oddly, you are the one who said that I "asserted that these vaccines have not been tested". That is *your* sentence, not mine.

What I stated is that these vaccines haven't completed clinical trials, which is the truth - they have not and we both know it. They have been "authorized for emergency use" - a totally different (and much lower) set of hurdles. Yeah there is a health crisis. I get that - but don't say that I'm "spreading misinformation", when that's just you lying about what I actually said.

Yet again, you are using a straw-man and discussing in bad faith. You are now dishonest to the point of claiming things that *you said* actually were written by me, and so I am done.
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Old 03-20-21, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by IdahoSpud View Post
The not-so-subtle insinuation is that I'm not social distancing. That insinuation is incorrect, so you have no worries on that account. I doubt that I'd care much for your company anyway, because I'm not the kind of person who enjoys being around a scold.

As I said in a previous post, I have no desire to experience medical issues caused by a Covid infection, nor from a vaccine that under normal circumstances would be several years away from acceptance.

My sincere apologies, but glib pronouncements from medical figureheads, politicians, and forum posters don't cut it with me. Clinical data does, and I have the patience and situational ability to wait for that data.

If you could point out any "misinformation" in this thread - other than your own hyperbole - "study mRNA vaccines for 50 years" - I'd appreciate it.

Oddly, you are the one who said that I "asserted that these vaccines have not been tested". That is *your* sentence, not mine.

What I stated is that these vaccines haven't completed clinical trials, which is the truth - they have not and we both know it. They have been "authorized for emergency use" - a totally different (and much lower) set of hurdles. Yeah there is a health crisis. I get that - but don't say that I'm "spreading misinformation", when that's just you lying about what I actually said.

Yet again, you are using a straw-man and discussing in bad faith. You are now dishonest to the point of claiming things that *you said* actually were written by me, and so I am done.
well thereís an easy one. You stated the MRNA vaccines
have not been subject to trials. Both The Phizer and Moderna vaccines went through 3 stages of clinical trials, review by independent
medical advisors and approval by the FDA. The same process regularly used for any
vaccine, and we now have over 100 million data points from the real world
As for data, you completely ignore the 1 in 600 people
dead, while you worry about a possible, unproven risk of less than one in a million. Tell me whatís wrong with my data when I claim that a theoretical one in a million risk is worth taking to get something that dramatically reduces a risk thatís already killed 1 in 600?

The math is not even close. If 50,000 people had already died from taking the vaccine, you would still be dramatically better off taking the vaccine. Yet you cavil about 7 unlinked blood
clots with 3 deaths.
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Old 03-20-21, 12:51 PM
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And if you want to wait till 2024, just extrapolating
youíre looking at an additional 1.8 million people dead in the US from COVID alone. Throw in another few hundred thousand as the result of mental illness, unemployment alcoholism, violence, opioid abuse, deferred medical treatment due to social isolation.

Then add in 20 trillion dollars in lost economic output, and Federal debt in excess of 200% of GDP. Not to mention the lifelong disruption to children from 3
more years of social distancing and education disruption.

and as COVID fatigue increased over a total of 4 years, the numbers would only get worse.

And for what? More certainty that the very low risk of side effects is in fact extremely low?

Nothing in life is risk free, but any risks from the currently approved vaccines is orders of magnitude less than waiting 3 more years.
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Old 03-20-21, 01:21 PM
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And if you want to wait till 2024, just extrapolating
youíre looking at an additional 1.8 million people dead in the US from COVID alone. Throw in another few hundred thousand as the result of mental illness, unemployment alcoholism, violence, opioid abuse, deferred medical treatment due to social isolation.

Then add in 20 trillion dollars in lost economic output, and Federal debt in excess of 200% of GDP. Not to mention the lifelong disruption to children from 3
more years of social distancing and education disruption.

and as COVID fatigue increased over a total of 4 years, the numbers would only get word

And for what? More certainty that the very low risk of side effects is in fact extremely low?

Nothing in life is risk free, but any risks from the currently approved vaccines is orders of magnitude less than waiting 3 more years.
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Old 03-20-21, 04:52 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by IdahoSpud View Post
I am not telling anyone to take - or not to take - a shot of mRNA vaccine. I am saying that *my* personal preference is to observe what happens to those who have opted to be vaccinated with it. I *will not* be coerced, shamed or frightened into any behavior, including this.
It's attitudes like this that caused the Idaho Legislature to adjourn prematurely because 10 Legislators caught COVID.

We already know what happens to those that aren't vaccinated. 500,000+ are dead. If more Americans have your attitude then more Americans will die.
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Old 03-20-21, 06:02 PM
  #64  
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The thing about the anti vaxxers is that they too will be protected as a result of the courage and virtuous behavior of the rest of us. Covid will be knocked back and they didn't even have to get off the porch.
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Old 03-20-21, 06:31 PM
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Atlas Shrugged,

even Ayn Rand would get vaccinated.
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Old 03-20-21, 06:51 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
The thing about the anti vaxxers is that they too will be protected as a result of the courage and virtuous behavior of the rest of us. Covid will be knocked back and they didn't even have to get off the porch.
You referred to yourself as courageous and virtuous.
Omfg!
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Old 03-20-21, 06:56 PM
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Absolutely, in comparison to the cringing, self absorbed anti vaxxers.
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Old 03-20-21, 07:20 PM
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My group riding consists of a mix of teens and adults 2-3x/week. Usually 2 or 3 kids per adult.
We started back up with indoor training a couple weeks ago and outdoor rides will begin April 3rd. For the first month we will have kids ride in the same small group and there will be no regroup at the halfway point. All in an attempt to reduce teens doing what teens do and congregating in a packed in mass.
Masks before and after rides.

Due to our policies, I have no hesitation or reservations, but I am healthy, had covid back in Nov, and will get a shot as soon as it's available to me.
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Old 03-20-21, 07:26 PM
  #69  
Grouperdawg
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Group rides were put on hold here early on but by late spring it was pretty much business as usual as far as I know. Five or six in our group this year got covid but they didn’t pass it to anyone riding. The general thought here, it seems, is that the wind dissipates it quickly and the risk is somewhat low on the bike. Of course, our area never shut down half take it very seriously and half don’t.....when I was out and about today restaurants looked packed.
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Old 03-20-21, 07:50 PM
  #70  
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I was a bit surprised today by how many groups I saw on the road. Judging by the riders' apparent ages, they most likely haven't been vaccinated yet.
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Old 03-21-21, 12:25 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
I was a bit surprised today by how many groups I saw on the road. Judging by the riders' apparent ages, they most likely haven't been vaccinated yet.
Did they also appear to be cringing and self absorbent?
If so, they definitely had yet to be vaccinated and were in no way as courageous and virtuous as you and your group.
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Old 03-21-21, 12:37 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
Did they also appear to be cringing and self absorbent?
If so, they definitely had yet to be vaccinated and were in no way as courageous and virtuous as you and your group.
What the heck are you spouting off about?
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Old 03-21-21, 12:40 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
What the heck are you spouting off about?
Havenít you heard the news?
if you have been vaccinated you are by default courageous and virtuous
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Old 03-21-21, 12:45 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
Havenít you heard the news?
if you have been vaccinated you are by default courageous and virtuous
Whatever. Go shout at some clouds - Iím not interested.
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Old 03-21-21, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Whatever. Go shout at some clouds - Iím not interested.
Fairly ironic that you assumed that based upon their younger appearance they were not vaccinated yet you tell someone else to shout at some clouds.
Check that. Amazingly ironic and uninteresting
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