So ... what are the latest thoughts on carbon clinchers and rim brakes?
#1
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So ... what are the latest thoughts on carbon clinchers and rim brakes?
I am considering building a lightweight endurance-geometry frame which would be more comfortable (more relaxed riding position, wider tires) for longer rides than my Workswell 066.
The question I am facing is rim brakes and deepish carbon clinchers with potentially questionable braking ability and the potential of wearing out the (rather more expensive) rim or disc brakes, in which case I could offset the weight lost with CF wheels with discs and heavier calipers. (I always seek to avoid unnecessary weight loss.)
With CF rims I can get lighter wheels for the same money--but light wheels which don't stop or don't last .... not such a bargain.
So ... does anyone here ride CF rims with caliper brakes, and how bad is it/are they?
The question I am facing is rim brakes and deepish carbon clinchers with potentially questionable braking ability and the potential of wearing out the (rather more expensive) rim or disc brakes, in which case I could offset the weight lost with CF wheels with discs and heavier calipers. (I always seek to avoid unnecessary weight loss.)
With CF rims I can get lighter wheels for the same money--but light wheels which don't stop or don't last .... not such a bargain.
So ... does anyone here ride CF rims with caliper brakes, and how bad is it/are they?
#2
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I've been riding them for long enough I've forgotten what alloy braking is like.
Whatever adjustments I needed to make is bedded in my head, so I'm never thinking or conscious of "carbon braking" when riding. Except on extended descent when i do try to pulse it rather than keep the pressure constant.
And obviously in the wet it's pretty atrocious.
Otherwise, in 95% of riding condition, it's all gravy. Wouldn't hesitate to buy more carbon wheels
Whatever adjustments I needed to make is bedded in my head, so I'm never thinking or conscious of "carbon braking" when riding. Except on extended descent when i do try to pulse it rather than keep the pressure constant.
And obviously in the wet it's pretty atrocious.
Otherwise, in 95% of riding condition, it's all gravy. Wouldn't hesitate to buy more carbon wheels
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I had a fairly good budget and I was in a similar predicament, and really wanted aero carbon clincher wheels ...
after reading how poor the braking is in the wet, I changed my mind. Living in the UK, we have several months of wet, and I also wanted wheels that would be OK for climbing
so, I ended up having a custom wheelset built by my LBS. I wanted the option of using clinchers aswell as tubeless and I wanted good strong rims.
I ended up getting HED Belgium Plus rims, laced with Chris King R45 hubs (the ceramic bearing upgrade), and Sapiem spokes. I am currently using Specialized Turbo Cotton clinchers with these, but will be getting 2017 IRC Formula Pro RBCC tubeless road tyres at the end of the month, which will hopefully allow me to have hassle free long rides during autumn/winter.
I may still get a used set of aero carbon clincher wheels for my 2nd bike (daily commuter), but I will look at ones that have the aluminium braking strip
If you are going to spend serious money on new wheels, seriously think about getting tubeless ready rims ... you have the option to run normal clinchers or tubeless
after reading how poor the braking is in the wet, I changed my mind. Living in the UK, we have several months of wet, and I also wanted wheels that would be OK for climbing
so, I ended up having a custom wheelset built by my LBS. I wanted the option of using clinchers aswell as tubeless and I wanted good strong rims.
I ended up getting HED Belgium Plus rims, laced with Chris King R45 hubs (the ceramic bearing upgrade), and Sapiem spokes. I am currently using Specialized Turbo Cotton clinchers with these, but will be getting 2017 IRC Formula Pro RBCC tubeless road tyres at the end of the month, which will hopefully allow me to have hassle free long rides during autumn/winter.
I may still get a used set of aero carbon clincher wheels for my 2nd bike (daily commuter), but I will look at ones that have the aluminium braking strip
If you are going to spend serious money on new wheels, seriously think about getting tubeless ready rims ... you have the option to run normal clinchers or tubeless
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Although I only ride carbon rims 20-30% of the time, like @redfooj, I'd say the adjustments I make in braking are pretty well embedded and I don't notice most of the time, and they aren't so great in the wet. I wouldn't say they're "atrocious," though. (Cosmic Carbone rims with Giant TRP brakes & Swiss Stop pads for reference).
I think the idea that they don't last as long is mostly theoretical, but I guess you'd know how likely you are to replace things before they actually wear out.
As much as I like my aero bike, if I were to build a new bike for long rides, I'd go lightweight over aero every time, and I'd get something like Campag's Neutron Ultras, or, more likely, build up something similar. Their Bora One 50mm carbon clinchers may be only nominally heavier, but they are crazy more expensive.
I do appreciate the advantages of an aero bike, but more for shorter, faster rides; the longer the ride, the more important comfort becomes, and when it gets windy, aero is a distinct DISadvantage.
I think the idea that they don't last as long is mostly theoretical, but I guess you'd know how likely you are to replace things before they actually wear out.
As much as I like my aero bike, if I were to build a new bike for long rides, I'd go lightweight over aero every time, and I'd get something like Campag's Neutron Ultras, or, more likely, build up something similar. Their Bora One 50mm carbon clinchers may be only nominally heavier, but they are crazy more expensive.
I do appreciate the advantages of an aero bike, but more for shorter, faster rides; the longer the ride, the more important comfort becomes, and when it gets windy, aero is a distinct DISadvantage.
Last edited by kbarch; 09-18-17 at 04:48 AM.
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Sounds like it might be worth investigating a pair of Hed Jet 6s.
Can be had for under a grand throughout the year from online retailers.
Can be had for under a grand throughout the year from online retailers.
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So, should OP consider the hybrid CF/Alloy models out there? Where you give up some weight savings, but get aero, and get lower pricing, but could still use calipers.
eg. Campy Bullet, Flo 60, etc..
eg. Campy Bullet, Flo 60, etc..
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here's a good link for tubeless ready rims/wheels:
141 tubeless wheelsets ? the most complete listing anywhere of your choices in new technology hoops | road.cc
141 tubeless wheelsets ? the most complete listing anywhere of your choices in new technology hoops | road.cc
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I must need more coffee this morning, I thought I just read that people are building new bikes with rim brakes.
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I am considering building a lightweight endurance-geometry frame which would be more comfortable (more relaxed riding position, wider tires) for longer rides than my Workswell 066.
The question I am facing is rim brakes and deepish carbon clinchers with potentially questionable braking ability and the potential ofwearing out the (rather more expensive) rim or disc brakes, in which case I could offset the weight lost with CF wheels with discs and heavier calipers. (I always seek to avoid unnecessary weight loss.)
With CF rims I can get lighter wheels for the same money--but light wheels which don't stop or don't last .... not such a bargain.
So ... does anyone here ride CF rims with caliper brakes, and how bad is it/are they?
The question I am facing is rim brakes and deepish carbon clinchers with potentially questionable braking ability and the potential ofwearing out the (rather more expensive) rim or disc brakes, in which case I could offset the weight lost with CF wheels with discs and heavier calipers. (I always seek to avoid unnecessary weight loss.)
With CF rims I can get lighter wheels for the same money--but light wheels which don't stop or don't last .... not such a bargain.
So ... does anyone here ride CF rims with caliper brakes, and how bad is it/are they?
Yes CF hoops will wear fairly quickly in wet/gritty conditions, but no more quickly than aluminum hoops in the same conditions.
#12
~>~
Light weight, 16/21 drill, reliable smooth cup/cone hubs and an AL braking surface w/ no need to switch brake pads on wheel changes.
Take your pick of 24, 35 or 50 rim depth to suit requirements. For LD/FG rides I fit the front on the fixed gear for a mix of 19th & 21st century tech.
-Bandera
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I ride CF wheels pretty much all the time on the road,
& braking is not an issue, wet or dry.
They are tubulars, so heat dissipation and weight are favorable. The 55mm ones are as light as very light alloy clinchers.
In the winter/wet, I'm more concerned w/ tire cuts but if it's really gritty then rim wear is an issue- same for alloy rims and disc pads.
Disagree w/ kbarch about comfort on long rides-
the 55mm wheels are just faster which can mean 1/2 hr less time on the bike over a long day. Not relaxing when it's really windy,
but the 35mm ones gain a little speed and are fine in gusty wind.
I've bought cast-off race wheels for little $ so not the end of the world if they get scratched or wear out.
I would not use carbon clinchers if I lived in Colorado or such.
& braking is not an issue, wet or dry.
They are tubulars, so heat dissipation and weight are favorable. The 55mm ones are as light as very light alloy clinchers.
In the winter/wet, I'm more concerned w/ tire cuts but if it's really gritty then rim wear is an issue- same for alloy rims and disc pads.
Disagree w/ kbarch about comfort on long rides-
the 55mm wheels are just faster which can mean 1/2 hr less time on the bike over a long day. Not relaxing when it's really windy,
but the 35mm ones gain a little speed and are fine in gusty wind.
I've bought cast-off race wheels for little $ so not the end of the world if they get scratched or wear out.
I would not use carbon clinchers if I lived in Colorado or such.
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Pretty good, I ride tubulars. They are lighter than equivalent clinchers and you can run higher or lower psi
The Zipp firecrest and newer Easton rims brake nicely, my older Reynolds brake ok but you have to get used to the difference from alloy rims. Swiss stop black prince pads are a nice upgrade
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I have no problem with my carbon wheels and direct mount rim brakes. They work awesome! But note I also don't ride in inclement weather
Matt
Matt
#16
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In all seriousness though...I've been reading up on this. It seems there is a smallish, but very real and measurable aero penalty for disc brakes. Even if it's just a handful of watts...for my area...I don't see the benefits of disc brakes outweighing even 3-4 watts lost to aerodynamics. Rim brakes (alloy....) are really, really good too.
Is there any drawback to having an aluminum brake track on carbon rims?
#18
~>~
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Good to know.
My thinking is:
- carbon clinchers + long descents = potential heat issues
- carbon clinchers + long ascents = weight issues
- carbon clinchers + disc brakes + long ascents = weight issues
My thinking is:
- carbon clinchers + long descents = potential heat issues
- carbon clinchers + long ascents = weight issues
- carbon clinchers + disc brakes + long ascents = weight issues
#22
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I'll add the inflation pressure limitations of clinchers. Inflation pressure pushes the braking tracks on clincher rims apart, which can cause a failure, when the rim splits down the middle. Yes, I've seen it. This is why clincher rims have pressure ratings, unlike tubular rims, which are isolated from inflation pressures.
And, to avoid pinch flats on clinchers, you have to maintain a minimum pressure that is close to the maximum rating. So clinchers have a narrow range of 'operability'. In contrast, in my experience, you can run skinny tubulars at 50psi up to whatever pressures at which the tire explodes. The rim is unaffected..
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generally agree but will toss in one positive here, no need to worry about braking performance or wear on the rim brake track if you have disc. not a big deal if you ride predominately on clean roads in dry conditions. venture into the wet, unpaved MUP's and general nasty conditions and disc/carbon seems like it would be a better option. personally I was floored at how noticeable the grit was on my AL rims in the wet, seems like every single piece of dust/dirt got onto the brake track and sounded/felt like i was using sandpaper to stop. myself, after that experience, I rethought my desire to have carbon wheels with rim brakes.
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Nothing wrong with rim brakes if you use the correct brake pads, but from what I have heard and read, carbon rims with rim brakes in the wet is not good, no matter which pads you use
I've never had a bike with hydraulic disk brakes and thru axles, as my 2 bikes are old. But, if I were to build a new bike from scratch, disc brakes would be a priority
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Excellent summary. Clinchers inherently feature a weight penalty, no matter what they are constructed from. Add discs, and you have a double penalty.
I'll add the inflation pressure limitations of clinchers. Inflation pressure pushes the braking tracks on clincher rims apart, which can cause a failure, when the rim splits down the middle. Yes, I've seen it. This is why clincher rims have pressure ratings, unlike tubular rims, which are isolated from inflation pressures.
And, to avoid pinch flats on clinchers, you have to maintain a minimum pressure that is close to the maximum rating. So clinchers have a narrow range of 'operability'. In contrast, in my experience, you can run skinny tubulars at 50psi up to whatever pressures at which the tire explodes. The rim is unaffected..
I'll add the inflation pressure limitations of clinchers. Inflation pressure pushes the braking tracks on clincher rims apart, which can cause a failure, when the rim splits down the middle. Yes, I've seen it. This is why clincher rims have pressure ratings, unlike tubular rims, which are isolated from inflation pressures.
And, to avoid pinch flats on clinchers, you have to maintain a minimum pressure that is close to the maximum rating. So clinchers have a narrow range of 'operability'. In contrast, in my experience, you can run skinny tubulars at 50psi up to whatever pressures at which the tire explodes. The rim is unaffected..
a new build, ... get tubeless ready wheels with hydraulic disk brakes and thru axles
tubular will soon die off (like betamax)