pbass

Got my new tires, and will do my first removal of old/installation of new tubeless tires on my gravel bike. I've got a pump with the tubeless cylinder thingy, and have been watching videos. WTB tires on WTB tubeless rims, hoping it'll be smooth sailing.
My question is, some videos show putting the sealant in the tire before fully seating it - pouring it in with one bead inside the rim, and then popping the opposite bead in. Then inflating/seating. But for a first-timer like me, would it make more sense to seat it w/o any sealant in, make sure it's seating properly, then deflate and put my sealant in? I'm used to putting sealant in BTW - have done that many times, taking out the valve core, etc. Is one approach better, or, does it really matter? Seems like the first approach has more likelihood of a mess if I screw something up!

tyrion

Do a "dry run" and seat the bead without sealant first. Skipping the dry run is for advanced tubelessers.

pbass

Thanks. That's what I was kinda thinking!

shelbyfv

I agree. Seat it first, then add the sealant through the valve.

bitpuddle

Some sealants are too thick to go through the valve (e.g. Stan’s race); otherwise, doesn’t matter.

pbass

Thanks for the tips guys. Sadly, I cannot get the bead to seat no matter what. WTB tires, WTB rims (just going from Ventures to Senderos - everything is in theory totally compatible). It's as if the Blackburn pump with the tubeless chamber just isn't a strong enough blast (man, pumping that thing up to 160psi is a bit of a workout after 6-7 tries!). Same with both tires - neither would seat.

I wonder if it has anything to do with these being the new WTBs with these features, combined with not enough air pressure blast?:
-Protected SG2 gravel tires feature a 120tpi casing, which improves suppleness compared to a traditional 60tpi tire.
-SG2 was specifically designed to be a puncture protection layer, but it also improves air retention and eliminates seeping at the sidewall.

Does more supple make it harder to get the bead to seat? I read one reviewer complain that some WTB tires he had were "slack in the bead", and hard to mount. I certainly had no problem popping these on to the rims. Maybe the SG2 layer is making it harder to seat? In any event, off to the LBS!

Badger6

Skipping the dry run is for folks that like getting really dirty and don't mind a huge mess when things just didn't go quite right...

pbass

Well I for one am glad I skipped it since I couldn't get these suckers to seat! I did manage to make a pretty good mess with some of the old tires' sealant though...

Badger6

That sounds odd. I haven't used a charger bottle for a couple of years now. In fact, I did two wheel sets today (one for a new bike and one for a buddy), and in both cases I used a track pump to inflate all 4 tires and get the beads set. This sounds odd, not that you've done anything wrong, but that after all you've done they wouldn't seat. Also, the suppleness of the carcass has nothing to do with the bead.

pbass

Yeah, man, I followed the Park tool video, etc. No matter what there was air escaping from at least one area of the bead/rim. I'd go around the tire and get it all looking good as far as the bead/rim and then when I'd shoot the air in there was always one spot where air would escape. Not always the same spot.
Heading to my LBS shortly--will see what they say. Bringing my old tires too as a backup in case there's something up with this tires/rims combo.
One thing I have not tried (since my LBS said they could see me today) is the trick I just read of putting a tube in and inflating and trying to get it seated that way for starters.

Badger6

Before you go running out to the LBS...what pressure were you able to get the tire pumped up to? In my experience very few tire/rim combos ever perfectly seal dry, regardless what the manufactures will claim. BUT, the leak of air doesn't mean the bead isn't set. Do a visual inspection of the tire, there should be a witness mark that is just above the rim, all the way around on both sides. It's a thin line and is usually 2-4mm above the rim. If you can see this on both sides, the bead is in place, go ahead, and put the sealant in, and then shake and rotate the wheel to get it all the way around, then inflate to 50-60 psi, and continue to shake/rotate the wheel. Sometimes it will seal directly, sometimes you'll need to go through a few iterations of the inflate/shake/rotate process. Once it holds air reasonable well, go ride it for 20-30 minutes, to really get eh sealant well distributed.

pbass

Zero! It didn't start to inflate at all!

Badger6

I've never experienced this....I'm no help at this distance.

pbass

Thanks for trying to get it sorted.
Heading over there now - I will report back!

pbass

Well, I don't feel so lame now. My LBS mechs couldn't get them seated either. Even w putting a tube in and getting one side seated, the other side would not seat. Seems that after being folded there's a couple sort of dented areas that just won't mold to the rim readily. They're going to put tubes in and let them sit with pressure in for a while to mold the shape better and then try again. I could have brought them home and tried that but I figure I'll let the pros handle this one. Was one of the most stubborn cases my mech said he'd seen!

Bingod

That is bad luck and super frustrating. My WTB Resolutes mount pretty easily on Stan's rims with a track pump. The bead seats at 40psi and they don't require sealant to hold air. One issue i have struggled with is initially getting the tire beads to cover the valve opening. If i don't get that right nothing works, no matter how furiously I pump. Good luck

Badger6

Glad you're getting it sorted. I've never had a tire that just wouldn't seat, I'll keep this filed away if I ever have a similar situation. Good luck.

pbass

Not sure I follow what you mean by cover the valve opening - you mean getting the bead to seat on the rim on either side of where the valve is? I watched as the mech kneaded and squeezed and pushed down on the tire in that area (well, eventually all over--at one point two guys were holding it!).

Kapusta

Just curious: when you say “dry run”, do you mean actually dry? I use slightly soapy water.

What kind of tape are you using? Does it go all the way to the edge of the rim? Depending on the answers to these questions, the solution may be in the taping.

Badger6

Military parlance...meaning do a full speed rehearsal without live ammo. In this case, mount the tire fully, WITHOUT sealant.

Once the beads are set (and if you need soapy water, use it to achieve this), release all the air, remove the valve core, and inject sealant in the desired amount, reinflate, shake/rattle/roll/ride to get tire sealed.

pbass

I didn't use soapy water (though I had it ready to go) because it was pretty easy to pop the tires into the rims. Isn't that typically what that is for?
The taping is the way they came taped "tubeless-ready" from Kona/WTB. The previous WTB tires seated no prob. The LBS said everything looked good, except as I say that it seemed these areas on the tires that were sort of dented from being folded weren't flattening out and molding to the rim straight away. That was the only thing they could figure was making it so stubborn.

Badger6

Military parlance...meaning do a full speed rehearsal without live ammo. In this case, mount the tire fully, WITHOUT sealant.

Once the beads are set (and if you need soapy water, use it to achieve this), release all the air, remove the valve core, and inject sealant in the desired amount, reinflate, shake/rattle/roll/ride to get tire sealed.

pbass

I'm quite certain my guys at the LBS were very glad I hadn't put the sealant in yet!

Badger6

Of this I have no doubt!

pbass

Now that I think of it, I wonder if it's the new-fangled SG2 lining inside the tires that's making it not form to the rim right away like my previous WTBs. It is an extra layer of puncture prevention. Seems possible that the tires are actually made a little stiffer with this lining, and this set at least needed extra care to completely get the folds out as a result.