Weekly Wedge Issue: Wind Chill is Pointless
01-28-22, 10:12 AM
#26
Legend In My Own Mind
Wind chill certainly does factor in. Even layered up, the wind takes heat away. Yes, even more so than moving on the bike. I can certainly tell the difference between -15c with no wind, and -15c with even a slight breeze. My Raynaud's reminds me even if I don't notice it right away.
01-28-22, 12:48 PM
#27
Senior Member
I've had winds and rain proof gear that left me basting in my sweat, I've let all of that gear go as I've found items that are much better at managing moisture while blocking the wind/rain.
It's not cheap, but quality materials are good at blocking the wind and venting humidity. Well designed bike specific wind blocking layers have venting panels on the back side of the article of clothing where there's no wind. Additionally, well designed wind block layers include adjustable venting to dump heat when the body warms up. I'm a big fan of Podiumwear, 45NRTH, and Pearl Izumi AmFIB winter gear.
I'll repeat what I've said in earlier posts: while riding a bike, you're creating a 10-20mph wind; therefore, when air temps are cold enough to consider wind chill, wear a wind blocking layer regardless of the wind speed. One quality wind blocking layer is all you need, and adjust the layers of wool for the air temp.
It's not cheap, but quality materials are good at blocking the wind and venting humidity. Well designed bike specific wind blocking layers have venting panels on the back side of the article of clothing where there's no wind. Additionally, well designed wind block layers include adjustable venting to dump heat when the body warms up. I'm a big fan of Podiumwear, 45NRTH, and Pearl Izumi AmFIB winter gear.
I'll repeat what I've said in earlier posts: while riding a bike, you're creating a 10-20mph wind; therefore, when air temps are cold enough to consider wind chill, wear a wind blocking layer regardless of the wind speed. One quality wind blocking layer is all you need, and adjust the layers of wool for the air temp.
yes, I know that you're much more of a hammerer than me, but seriously, I do notice that when really cold (-20c or more) I really do seem to go slower on my commute, just to have less face skin uncomfortableness going on, and also by then my rear trigger shifter is crying uncle so I'm in 1 or 2 gears in back, and shift between the granny and mid ring when going up the overpass and or slow snow buildup.
01-28-22, 12:58 PM
#28
meh
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I agree, but I'd have to amend those imperialist numbers to metric in my case.
yes, I know that you're much more of a hammerer than me, but seriously, I do notice that when really cold (-20c or more) I really do seem to go slower on my commute, just to have less face skin uncomfortableness going on, and also by then my rear trigger shifter is crying uncle so I'm in 1 or 2 gears in back, and shift between the granny and mid ring when going up the overpass and or slow snow buildup.
yes, I know that you're much more of a hammerer than me, but seriously, I do notice that when really cold (-20c or more) I really do seem to go slower on my commute, just to have less face skin uncomfortableness going on, and also by then my rear trigger shifter is crying uncle so I'm in 1 or 2 gears in back, and shift between the granny and mid ring when going up the overpass and or slow snow buildup.
I haven't had an issue in a few years, but my old single-speed winter commuter had issues with the freehub pawls freezing up at temps below 0F/-18C ... that made for some 'interesting' rides (and at least one long walk), basically, I'd ride like it was a fixie to keep the pawls engaged (& swear at myself if I forgot and freewheeled).
01-28-22, 07:35 PM
#29
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The colder it gets, the less the legs want to work, and keeping the bike-generated windload off the fact is a good reason to slow-roll.I haven't had an issue in a few years, but my old single-speed winter commuter had issues with the freehub pawls freezing up at temps below 0F/-18C ... that made for some 'interesting' rides (and at least one long walk), basically, I'd ride like it was a fixie to keep the pawls engaged (& swear at myself if I forgot and freewheeled).
01-29-22, 10:32 AM
#30
meh
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Yes and no ... First, I will be clear, while riding, my engine runs hotter than the average toad.
I typically wear some swag sunglasses - this was The Loppet in 2018 with air temps around 0F/-18C. It was a 22 mile/35km race, and I rode home after the race for a 33-mile (53km) day. In addition to the snotsicle, I had a sweat glacier behind the left lens of my shades (Toad on the right of this pic)
In 2019, I took advantage of a polar vortex to get some Arrowhead 135 training. Air temps were nearly -30F/-34C when I rode 13 miles (20km). I started with my snowboard goggles and helmet, but I fogged and froze up the goggles - while riding trails, I could see well enough through the frozen fog; but on roads for the last mile or two, I went with bare eyes for safety. This pic was my end of ride selfie after riding without goggles for a while, I comfortable with my eyes exposed. I know many riders tear up in the cold and wind, fortunately, that's not an issue for this toad.
I typically wear some swag sunglasses - this was The Loppet in 2018 with air temps around 0F/-18C. It was a 22 mile/35km race, and I rode home after the race for a 33-mile (53km) day. In addition to the snotsicle, I had a sweat glacier behind the left lens of my shades (Toad on the right of this pic)
In 2019, I took advantage of a polar vortex to get some Arrowhead 135 training. Air temps were nearly -30F/-34C when I rode 13 miles (20km). I started with my snowboard goggles and helmet, but I fogged and froze up the goggles - while riding trails, I could see well enough through the frozen fog; but on roads for the last mile or two, I went with bare eyes for safety. This pic was my end of ride selfie after riding without goggles for a while, I comfortable with my eyes exposed. I know many riders tear up in the cold and wind, fortunately, that's not an issue for this toad.
Last edited by Hypno Toad; 01-29-22 at 10:34 AM. Reason: add links
01-29-22, 10:51 AM
#31
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So many good points, and with Bob Collins' wonderful wit. Bob retired a few years ago and I really miss him on the radio!
https://blogs.mprnews.org/newscut/20...cold-shoulder/
Thinking about it, the title of this thread should be: Weekly Wedge Issue: Wind Chill is Pointless (and just HTFU)
So why do weatherpeople work so hard to make it sound even worse by citing the wind chill factor, which is rooted in (some say, “lame”) science, not human understanding, and serves no real purpose for understanding unless you intend to go outside naked next week?
What most weatherpeople don’t tell you is the wind chill factor “assumes that your exposed face is roughly five feet off the ground, it’s night, and you’re walking directly into the wind in an open field at a clip of about 3 mph,” according to Mental Floss.
The wind chill is irrelevant to almost everything else. It doesn’t affect your car in any way. It doesn’t affect your feet or any other body part — that is to say: almost all of your body — if you have the kind of clothing that people put on when it’s -20 anyway.
Thinking about it, the title of this thread should be: Weekly Wedge Issue: Wind Chill is Pointless (and just HTFU)
01-29-22, 10:55 AM
#32
Senior Member
mama mia
years ago, I used to participate in a cross country skiing event called The Canadian Ski Marathon. Multi section two day event, I did partial distances, but the real hard core folks (bless their hearts) who start at 5am or whatever, carry all the stuff to sleep out and eat overnight etc, would pass us during the day and a lot of them would look like this.
real hard core folks, hats off to them, and to senor toad too.
the coolest part with the ski marathon was that a fair number of the hardcore folks were over 60, 70, really damn impressive being passed by a guy or a lady doing twice your distance, sleeping out at night around a fire and 20, 30 years older than you.....
years ago, I used to participate in a cross country skiing event called The Canadian Ski Marathon. Multi section two day event, I did partial distances, but the real hard core folks (bless their hearts) who start at 5am or whatever, carry all the stuff to sleep out and eat overnight etc, would pass us during the day and a lot of them would look like this.
real hard core folks, hats off to them, and to senor toad too.
the coolest part with the ski marathon was that a fair number of the hardcore folks were over 60, 70, really damn impressive being passed by a guy or a lady doing twice your distance, sleeping out at night around a fire and 20, 30 years older than you.....
01-29-22, 12:01 PM
#33
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No, it isn’t. More on that later.
Yes, it is an overhyped concept but it does have an effect on you while riding a bike…or walking around…or sitting around…in the cold. More later.
Just because you don’t understand physical chemistry and use the wrong analogy, doesn’t mean that “wind chill” isn’t a thing. “Wind chill” doesn’t have an effect on inanimate objects because “wind chill” is about perception. In a wind, the water in the glass will cool and it may even cool below the freezing point, depending on the conditions. But you are correct that it won’t freeze due to evaporative cooling under the conditions you lay out. However, the original work on wind chill did use the method you suggest.
Yes, you dress for the conditions. But what tells you that you need to increase your wind blocking layer (or to use one in the first place)? You may not use the “wind chill factor” to calculate the amount of clothing you need but you use the concept to reduce the chilling effect of that wind. “Wind chill” is a thing. Yes, it’s over used…like “black ice”…but it is a thing and is helpful to know at least something about before venturing out into the cold and wind.
Wind chill factor is great for The Weather Channel to hype cold temps and create drama, but it has very little effect when your riding a bike ... unless you're a nudist.
Here's the challenge for those that want to argue for wind chill: With the air temp is 35F/1.5C and the wind is 20 mph/32kph making the wind chill 24F/-5C, you put a glass of tap water on the patio table ... will the water in that glass freeze?
SPOILER ALERT! No, the water will not freeze until the air temp is below 32F/0C.
SPOILER ALERT! No, the water will not freeze until the air temp is below 32F/0C.
For rides when it's cold and windy, simply include a wind blocking layer and dress the same as you would for the air temp. Wind chill is about the lose of heat from exposed skin, and I don't know anybody going out with exposed skin when temps are cold enough to consider wind chill.
For reference, yesterday I rode for 90+ minutes with air temp at 0F/ and 6 mph winds, making the wind chill factor -12F/-25C. I dressed for the conditions, and a wind block layer is part of my winter kit any time the temps are below 45F/8C, regardless of the wind speeds (or wind chill factor) because riding a bike is creating a constant 10-20 mph (16-32 kpm) wind.
For reference, yesterday I rode for 90+ minutes with air temp at 0F/ and 6 mph winds, making the wind chill factor -12F/-25C. I dressed for the conditions, and a wind block layer is part of my winter kit any time the temps are below 45F/8C, regardless of the wind speeds (or wind chill factor) because riding a bike is creating a constant 10-20 mph (16-32 kpm) wind.
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Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
Last edited by cyccommute; 01-29-22 at 12:14 PM.
01-29-22, 12:45 PM
#34
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From a detailed history of why wind chill is useless:
https://slate-com.cdn.ampproject.org...e-useless.html
Wind Chill BlowsIt’s time to get rid of a meaningless number.
... assumptions to determine wind-chill-equivalent temperatures. Namely, they geared their calculations toward people who are 5 feet tall, somewhat portly, and walk at an even clip directly into the wind. They also left out crucial variables that have an important effect on how we experience the weather, like solar radiation. Direct sunlight can make us feel 10 to 15 degrees warmer, even on a frigid winter day. The wind chill equivalent temperature, though, assumes that we’re taking a stroll in the dead of night.
For Ducharme's study, 12 adult volunteers, male and female, aged 2 2 - 4 2 with a mean of 33 years,
The Slate article is an awful article. It’s in the style of “let’s poke holes in the science” but not suggest any kind of solution. Osczevski and Bluestein are aware of the problems. Though I am loathe to do such an extensive quotation, I think the entirety of their paper’s conclusion needs to be posted
C O N C L U S I O N. Wind chill is not a neat and simple package. A person's exposure to wind is determined by their surroundings and their activity relative to the wind direction. Time of day affects the lapse rate and the ratio of the wind at 10 m to the wind at face level, and physiology affects how they react to it. Because one's experience of the equivalent temperature depends on facial skin temperature, which varies from person to person because cheek thermal resistances vary widely, WCT is not an ideal way to express the combined effect. Wind chill is not a neat and simple package. A person's exposure to wind is determined by their surroundings and their activity relative to the wind direction. Time of day affects the lapse rate and the ratio of the wind at 10 m to the wind at face level, and physiology affects how they react to it. Because one's experience of the equivalent temperature depends on facial skin temperature, which varies from person to person because cheek thermal resistances vary widely, WCT is not an ideal way to express the combined effect of wind and low temperature. Ideally, an index of wind chill should be invariant with respect to individual differences or stated so that it can be individually cali- brated with experience, as was the original three- or four-digit Wind Chill Index that Siple and Passel (1945) created. However, the public seems to have a strong preference for the equivalent temperature format (Maarouf and Bitzos 2000), a deceptive simplification that only seems to be easier to understand.
Wind chill is an evolving concept. Wind chill equivalent temperature charts might someday include solar heating effects; improved prediction of time to frostbite and more sophisticated time-dependent models of skin cooling in wind. The short-term effects of wind chill are of interest, as many people in the modern world are not exposed to the wind for long enough to reach a steady-state skin temperature. Consideration might also be given to modifying the assumed value of internal thermal resistance to tailor the chart more directly to the average person. An up- ward adjustment of the steady-state core temperature and minimum wind speed could result in a chart that applies more directly to people engaged in tasks that have moderately high rates of energy expenditure, such as recreational cross-country skiers or runners. Another niche calculation might be a marine wind chill chart, incorporating the cooling effects of fog or spray. It seems unlikely that another half century will go by before wind chill is again upgraded.
Wind chill is an evolving concept. Wind chill equivalent temperature charts might someday include solar heating effects; improved prediction of time to frostbite and more sophisticated time-dependent models of skin cooling in wind. The short-term effects of wind chill are of interest, as many people in the modern world are not exposed to the wind for long enough to reach a steady-state skin temperature. Consideration might also be given to modifying the assumed value of internal thermal resistance to tailor the chart more directly to the average person. An up- ward adjustment of the steady-state core temperature and minimum wind speed could result in a chart that applies more directly to people engaged in tasks that have moderately high rates of energy expenditure, such as recreational cross-country skiers or runners. Another niche calculation might be a marine wind chill chart, incorporating the cooling effects of fog or spray. It seems unlikely that another half century will go by before wind chill is again upgraded.
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Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
01-29-22, 12:52 PM
#35
Senior Member
I ain't too smart, but I do know that out in real life, I certainly take wind chill into account when heading out for winter activities.
01-29-22, 01:08 PM
#36
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So many good points, and with Bob Collins' wonderful wit. Bob retired a few years ago and I really miss him on the radio!
https://blogs.mprnews.org/newscut/20...cold-shoulder/
Thinking about it, the title of this thread should be: Weekly Wedge Issue: Wind Chill is Pointless (and just HTFU)
So why do weatherpeople work so hard to make it sound even worse by citing the wind chill factor, which is rooted in (some say, “lame”) science, not human understanding, and serves no real purpose for understanding unless you intend to go outside naked next week?
What most weatherpeople don’t tell you is the wind chill factor “assumes that your exposed face is roughly five feet off the ground, it’s night, and you’re walking directly into the wind in an open field at a clip of about 3 mph,” according to Mental Floss.
The wind chill is irrelevant to almost everything else. It doesn’t affect your car in any way. It doesn’t affect your feet or any other body part — that is to say: almost all of your body — if you have the kind of clothing that people put on when it’s -20 anyway.
Thinking about it, the title of this thread should be: Weekly Wedge Issue: Wind Chill is Pointless (and just HTFU)
The NWS Wind Chill Temperature index uses advances in science, technology, and computer modeling to provide an accurate, understandable, and useful formula for calculating the dangers from winter winds and freezing temperatures. In early summer of 2001, Human trials were conducted at the Defense and Civil Institute of Environmental Medicine in Toronto, Canada. The trial results were used to improve the accuracy of the new formula and determine frostbite threshold values. During the human trials, twelve volunteers (six men and six women) were placed in a chilled wind tunnel and thermal transducers were stuck to their faces to measure heat flow from the cheeks, forehead, nose and chin while walking 3 mph on a treadmill. Each Volunteer participated in four trials of 90 minutes each and was exposed to varying wind speeds and temperatures. The new wind chill index is now being used in Canada and the United States.
The NWS Wind Chill Temperature (WCT) index uses advances in science, technology, and computer modeling to provide an accurate, understandable, and useful formula for calculating the dangers from winter winds and freezing temperatures. The index does the following:
- Calculates wind speed at an average height of 5 feet, the typical height of an adult human face, based on readings from the national standard height of 33 feet, which is the typical height of an anemometer
- Is based on a human face model
- Incorporates heat transfer theory based on heat loss from the body to its surroundings, during cold and breezy/windy days
- Lowers the calm wind threshold to 3 mph
- Uses a consistent standard for skin tissue resistance
- Assumes no impact from the sun, i.e., clear night sky.
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Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
01-30-22, 01:32 PM
#37
meh
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Quote: Here's the challenge for those that want to argue for wind chill: With the air temp is 35F/1.5C and the wind is 20 mph/32kph making the wind chill 24F/-5C, you put a glass of tap water on the patio table ... will the water in that glass freeze?
SPOILER ALERT! No, the water will not freeze until the air temp is below 32F/0C.
Just because you don’t understand physical chemistry and use the wrong analogy, doesn’t mean that “wind chill” isn’t a thing. “Wind chill” doesn’t have an effect on inanimate objects because “wind chill” is about perception. In a wind, the water in the glass will cool and it may even cool below the freezing point, depending on the conditions. But you are correct that it won’t freeze due to evaporative cooling under the conditions you lay out. However, the original work on wind chill did use the method you suggest.
SPOILER ALERT! No, the water will not freeze until the air temp is below 32F/0C.
Just because you don’t understand physical chemistry and use the wrong analogy, doesn’t mean that “wind chill” isn’t a thing. “Wind chill” doesn’t have an effect on inanimate objects because “wind chill” is about perception. In a wind, the water in the glass will cool and it may even cool below the freezing point, depending on the conditions. But you are correct that it won’t freeze due to evaporative cooling under the conditions you lay out. However, the original work on wind chill did use the method you suggest.
Yes, you dress for the conditions. But what tells you that you need to increase your wind blocking layer (or to use one in the first place)? You may not use the “wind chill factor” to calculate the amount of clothing you need but you use the concept to reduce the chilling effect of that wind. “Wind chill” is a thing. Yes, it’s over used…like “black ice”…but it is a thing and is helpful to know at least something about before venturing out into the cold and wind.
You quoted, but I don't think you understood the OP:
For reference, yesterday I rode for 90+ minutes with air temp at 0F/-18C and 6 mph winds, making the wind chill factor -12F/-25C. I dressed for the conditions, and a wind block layer is part of my winter kit any time the temps are below 45F/8C, regardless of the wind speeds (or wind chill factor) because riding a bike is creating a constant 10-20 mph (16-32 kpm) wind.
This is exactly my point and I stand by it:
The wind chill is irrelevant to almost everything else. It doesn’t affect your car in any way. It doesn’t affect your feet or any other body part — that is to say: almost all of your body — if you have the kind of clothing that people put on when it’s -20 anyway.
01-30-22, 04:23 PM
#38
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So you do understand the point, but argue against it. LOL. You know what has a much larger effect on how 'it feels' ... the sun! I've never seen water freeze at 35F/2C and 20 mph/32kph winds; but I've seen snow and ice melt at 0F/-18C with full sun. Funny that the weather forecast never reports the feels like temp on a sunny winters day?
There's no need to 'increase' wind blocking layers, if you have quality kit. I have a wind block vest and wind blocking pants, once temps get down to roughly 50F/10C (depending on the sky conditions), I wear wind blocking kit regardless of the wind chill.
You quoted, but I don't think you understood the OP:
I dressed to be comfortable at 0F/-18C, the wind conditions are not a factor.
You quoted, but I don't think you understood the OP:
I dressed to be comfortable at 0F/-18C, the wind conditions are not a factor.
PS - I know by posting a quoted reply, I've damned myself to repeated quoted posts until the end of time and space ... [/shrug]
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Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
01-31-22, 07:27 AM
#39
meh
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01-31-22, 07:43 AM
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The colder it gets, the less the legs want to work, and keeping the bike-generated windload off the fact is a good reason to slow-roll.
I haven't had an issue in a few years, but my old single-speed winter commuter had issues with the freehub pawls freezing up at temps below 0F/-18C ... that made for some 'interesting' rides (and at least one long walk), basically, I'd ride like it was a fixie to keep the pawls engaged (& swear at myself if I forgot and freewheeled).
I haven't had an issue in a few years, but my old single-speed winter commuter had issues with the freehub pawls freezing up at temps below 0F/-18C ... that made for some 'interesting' rides (and at least one long walk), basically, I'd ride like it was a fixie to keep the pawls engaged (& swear at myself if I forgot and freewheeled).
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01-31-22, 08:10 AM
#41
meh
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The problem is that you don’t understand your point. I suspect that you have seen water freeze in the shade on a day where it is 35°F with winds. You’ve probably seen water freeze without the wind blowing. The temperature is different depending on where the temperature is measured. If you were to design your experiment better, yes, you could freeze the water when the air temperature is 35°F but it would need to be insulated from other heat sources (like the air and, yes, sun). Blow wind over it and it will cool…even to the point of freezing. Put the glass in a shaded area where it doesn’t pick up as much energy from the sun and it could freeze as well.
The only time water freezes in the shade, with air temps above freezing, is ground temp, it has nothing to do with wind chill. If the ground is frozen, the thermal transfer will freeze water in direct contact the ground. In fact, this is why when I'm winter camping, I focus on a sleeping mat with a high R-value... it's not the winds, I'm in a tent, it's the ground temp. I feel like you understand this.
In other words: the air temp is the coldest it will get, no matter what the wind is doing. The wind will cool your exposed skin, or that glass of water, to the air temp faster than it would cool with still winds, but the lowest temp is always the air temp. And how much exposed skin do you have at temps below freezing?
You have said it and made my point earlier: wind chill is a thing, but not the headline the weather forecast ALWAYS makes it. Winter comfort is based on many factors, wind is part of the equation, but far down the list of things I think about when preparing for my daily winter ride and rarely factors into my clothing choices.
You don’t wear different clothes when it is 30°F than when it is 0°F? Do you wear your wind blocking vest and pants when it is 30°F or only when the temps get colder? Most cyclists already wear more wind blocking layers when it is cold than people walking do. I wonder why that is?
See post 14 for information about quality bike-specific winter wind-blocking kit. With a lifetime of winter activities in Minnesota cold, including thousands of miles of winter biking, I've found some great gear and brands I trust ... and found some that is worthless too.
In summation: dressing for the air temp in the winter should* take care of any wind chill factor. (see Bob Collins blog post) *[poor quality winter gear might fail this rule of thumb]
You might learn something, and from my side of the keyboard, that's be something new and fun to see.
Last edited by Hypno Toad; 01-31-22 at 08:11 AM. Reason: typo
01-31-22, 09:53 AM
#42
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01-31-22, 11:40 AM
#43
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The only time water freezes in the shade, with air temps above freezing, is ground temp, it has nothing to do with wind chill.
If the ground is frozen, the thermal transfer will freeze water in direct contact the ground. In fact, this is why when I'm winter camping, I focus on a sleeping mat with a high R-value... it's not the winds, I'm in a tent, it's the ground temp. I feel like you understand this.
In other words: the air temp is the coldest it will get, no matter what the wind is doing. The wind will cool your exposed skin, or that glass of water, to the air temp faster than it would cool with still winds, but the lowest temp is always the air temp. And how much exposed skin do you have at temps below freezing?
Let’s look at this from a different perspective. During the summer, do you not feel cooling from the sweat evaporating from your skin? Is the lowest temperature you experience the temperature of the air around you? We sweat to lose heat through evaporation. It’s quite effective. Just because the temperature changes from hot to cold doesn’t mean that evaporative cooling goes away. We use “wind chill” to cool ourselves in the summer to avoid overheating. We don’t want to lose heat to evaporative cooling in the winter (aka wind chill) because we don’t have enough heat to lose.
You have said it and made my point earlier: wind chill is a thing, but not the headline the weather forecast ALWAYS makes it. Winter comfort is based on many factors, wind is part of the equation, but far down the list of things I think about when preparing for my daily winter ride and rarely factors into my clothing choices.
On the other hand, I object to your spreading of incorrect information. The Slate article you posted and the other “journalist” you quoted contain very erroneous information. It took me less than 5 minutes to find the modern research paper that set the new standards and to find that the Slate article was not just wrong but insultingly so. The whole wind chill is only measured for short, fat people was journalistic malpractice. So was the similar quote from Collins. The least both could have done was to read the paper and/or contact the researchers before printing out false information and/or deciding that the scientists are stupid.
See post 21: .... once temps are around 20F/-7C, my wind blocking layers do not change ... even at temps down to -30F/-34C. One wind blocking layer is all you need, OTOH the layers of wool will increase as the mercury falls.
See post 14 for information about quality bike-specific winter wind-blocking kit. With a lifetime of winter activities in Minnesota cold, including thousands of miles of winter biking, I've found some great gear and brands I trust ... and found some that is worthless too.
In summation: dressing for the air temp in the winter should* take care of any wind chill factor. (see Bob Collins blog post) *[poor quality winter gear might fail this rule of thumb]
See post 14 for information about quality bike-specific winter wind-blocking kit. With a lifetime of winter activities in Minnesota cold, including thousands of miles of winter biking, I've found some great gear and brands I trust ... and found some that is worthless too.
In summation: dressing for the air temp in the winter should* take care of any wind chill factor. (see Bob Collins blog post) *[poor quality winter gear might fail this rule of thumb]
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
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Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
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Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
01-31-22, 12:28 PM
#44
meh
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tltr plus I see no value in trying to push a rope uphill.
02-03-22, 11:58 AM
#45
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In other words, “I got nothin’.”
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Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
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Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
02-03-22, 12:08 PM
#46
meh
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I'm gonna both support those that think wind chill factor is important for biking, and also confirm my own opinion in the OP.
I will start by paraphrasing the OP:
I have a piece of winter kit will not wear in the colder conditions (under 25F/-4C wind chill): my 45NRTH Greazy Cap . I love this cap and wear it a ton for temps between 25F/-4C and 50F/10C; however, the cycling bill on this cap channels cold air to my forehead, giving me a brain freeze headache. I'll wear a wool skull cap (without bill - see OP pic) in colder/windy conditions; and with air temps between 25F/-4C and 35F/2C, I will consider wind chill factor when picking skull cap versus Greazy.
OTOH my forehead is bare skin and that's the point of wind chill factor, how the wind can affect exposed skin. So, wind chill factor works for bare skin, but ... and I repeat what I've said a ton ... when temps are low enough to consider wind chill, you'll have very limited skin exposed while riding a bike, so it's pointless.
For reference, me with my Greazy cap at the low end of it's temp range for me.
I will start by paraphrasing the OP:
Wind chill factor ... has very little effect when your riding a bike ... a wind block layer is part of my winter kit any time the temps are below 45F/8C, regardless of the wind speeds (or wind chill factor) because riding a bike is creating a constant 10-20 mph wind (16-32 kpm wind).
OTOH my forehead is bare skin and that's the point of wind chill factor, how the wind can affect exposed skin. So, wind chill factor works for bare skin, but ... and I repeat what I've said a ton ... when temps are low enough to consider wind chill, you'll have very limited skin exposed while riding a bike, so it's pointless.
For reference, me with my Greazy cap at the low end of it's temp range for me.
02-03-22, 12:51 PM
#47
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Now it’s important?
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Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
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02-03-22, 12:55 PM
#48
meh
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02-03-22, 02:03 PM
#49
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My last post was an error, rushing myself. However, cherry picking quotes is some weak tea.
There is no 180 in my posts, only a poster in this thread twisting other peoples words in an effort to support their own failed point.
Today's post: my forehead is bare skinand that's the point of wind chill factor, how the wind can affect exposed skin. So, wind chill factor works for bare skin, but ... and I repeat what I've said a ton ... when temps are low enough to consider wind chill, you'll have very limited skin exposed while riding a bike, so it's pointless.
Read the OP: For rides when it's cold and windy, simply include a wind blocking layer and dress the same as you would for the air temp. Wind chill is about the lose of heat from exposed skin, and I don't know anybody going out with exposed skin when temps are cold enough to consider wind chill.
BTW I'm going out for a 20-mile ride at 2F/-17C ... it's an errand, not a commute, I hope that doesn't offend someone.
There is no 180 in my posts, only a poster in this thread twisting other peoples words in an effort to support their own failed point.
Today's post: my forehead is bare skinand that's the point of wind chill factor, how the wind can affect exposed skin. So, wind chill factor works for bare skin, but ... and I repeat what I've said a ton ... when temps are low enough to consider wind chill, you'll have very limited skin exposed while riding a bike, so it's pointless.
Read the OP: For rides when it's cold and windy, simply include a wind blocking layer and dress the same as you would for the air temp. Wind chill is about the lose of heat from exposed skin, and I don't know anybody going out with exposed skin when temps are cold enough to consider wind chill.
BTW I'm going out for a 20-mile ride at 2F/-17C ... it's an errand, not a commute, I hope that doesn't offend someone.
03-25-22, 03:03 PM
#50
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I can confirm: 4-1/2 hours riding with a windchill of 23F/-5C, none of my water bottles froze.... it's almost like the air temp needs to be below freezing for water to freeze. Also, I dressed for 35F/2C (including a windvest that I'd always use at this temp) and was totally comfortable the whole ride.
