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Cars are not People

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Cars are not People

Old 07-28-16, 05:27 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by RichSPK View Post
I defend cars because I like them.
Nobody is trying to exterminate them from the face of the earth, they are trying to control and limit their harm. I like rabbits, but I don't want them to destroy Australia. I like how bacteria ferment certain foods, like yogurt and salami, but I don't want all food to be contaminated by bacteria. So, I advocate to control and limit their harm.

But to get back to the OP theme, you did state it in anthropomorphic terms, as if cars were people. What precisely are you defending?

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Old 07-28-16, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by andr0id View Post
Don't want an abortion, don't get one, don't tell me I shouldn't have one.
Don't like gay marriage, then don't marry your boyfriend, don't tell me who to marry.
Don't want a gun, don't buy one, don't tell me I shouldn't have one.
Don't want to eat meat, don't eat it, don't tell me I shouldn't eat it.
Don't want a car, don't buy one, don't tell me I shouldn't own one.
You want to praise Jesus, have fun, don't tell me I need your religion.

See how that works. Do whatever you like, just quit preaching about it.

When you try to tell others how to live and advocate that your way is better and that they don't know what is best for themselves, then I have a negative reaction.
When you have an abortion, marry your same sex partner or reject the loving salvation offered by Jesus, it has no effect on me, causes me no harm or concern, and I couldn't care less. I would not think for a moment it is any of my business.

But when you (the generic you, not you specifically) drive, it does affect me - I have to breathe your exhaust, I have to worry you might accidentally crash into me, I'm expected to subsidize the roads you use even though my own use (including indirect use like having goods delivered), might be far below yours, and I have to live with the strife caused by oil conflicts and the damage to the environment. So I have no objection to you driving per se, I'm just objecting to the part that harms me, or other people or the environment. Get rid of that and I won't say a word about you driving all you want.
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Old 07-28-16, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by RichSPK View Post
There's a lot of ways to answer that question. I'm not particularly invested in the debate (and I don't want to be), so I'll keep it simple. I defend cars because I like them. I don't like crime, generally (everyone can probably think of a law they think is stupid), so I don't defend that.
I like sugar and sweets but I won't defend them because I know I've harmed my health by eating too much of them in the past and that, in general, the food industry pushes them too much; and I appreciate what Michelle Obama did to put "added sugar" into the nutritional information on food packaging. The fact that I like something doesn't blind me to the problems it causes. I think a big part of maturity is learning to separate what you like from what you know is good or not and why and in what quantities.
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Old 07-30-16, 07:14 PM
  #54  
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I defend cars because I'm an enthusiast of all things on four wheels.

However..

The world is very overpopulated with cars and it's sort of interesting that people are expected to own one these days in the greater majority of large countries.
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Old 08-02-16, 03:20 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
When you have an abortion, marry your same sex partner or reject the loving salvation offered by Jesus, it has no effect on me, causes me no harm or concern, and I couldn't care less. I would not think for a moment it is any of my business.

But when you (the generic you, not you specifically) drive, it does affect me - I have to breathe your exhaust, I have to worry you might accidentally crash into me, I'm expected to subsidize the roads you use even though my own use (including indirect use like having goods delivered), might be far below yours, and I have to live with the strife caused by oil conflicts and the damage to the environment. So I have no objection to you driving per se, I'm just objecting to the part that harms me, or other people or the environment. Get rid of that and I won't say a word about you driving all you want.
can understand what u are saying but long before cars and oil were around. Men have always tried to dominate other men or women. Think Ottoman empire, Roman empire, Spanish empire , British empire, American empire, NWO empire. Just the way humans are wired I guess???
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Old 08-02-16, 03:41 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by rossiny View Post
can understand what u are saying but long before cars and oil were around. Men have always tried to dominate other men or women. Think Ottoman empire, Roman empire, Spanish empire , British empire, American empire, NWO empire. Just the way humans are wired I guess???
Imperial domination wasn't the point. The point was that individual choices can adversely affect other people. Whenever this happens, the affected individual or community may have a right to respond.
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Old 08-02-16, 03:48 PM
  #57  
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strife

Originally Posted by Roody View Post
Imperial domination wasn't the point. The point was that individual choices can adversely affect other people. Whenever this happens, the affected individual or community may have a right to respond.
I guess was referring more to his comment about strife caused by oil. It seems that humans in general always create strife by trying to dominate each other, whether cars , oil, or any combination of these are involved. Granted oil and cars during our time frame are indeed making a fair amount of strife . we are junkies gone crack crazy,,,
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Old 08-02-16, 03:57 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by rossiny View Post
I guess was referring more to his comment about strife caused by oil. It seems that humans in general always create strife by trying to dominate each other, whether cars , oil, or any combination of these are involved. Granted oil and cars during our time frame are indeed making a fair amount of strife . we are junkies gone crack crazy,,,
Once again rossiny says something that stimulates revelation in me: indeed personal motor vehicles may be like huge personal assistants we tote around with us for various purposes from impressing others to feeling invulnerable when we are inside them, to traveling at high speed like on a fast horse or some kind of magical creature like that thing the kid rides on in The Neverending Story movie. Who could not defend that flying thing as a person, considering how lovable and helpful it was? I think it talked too, actually. But, of course, so did cars for a while.
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Old 11-27-21, 09:49 PM
  #59  
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Wars

Originally Posted by cooker View Post
LOL. It is not in any way a basic human right any more than owning a television is a basic human right. Of course, car ownership is for the moment a societal norm and both privately and government-funded infrastructure supports it, and, just like television seems to be going, cars may go out of fashion at some point and be replaced with other technology.

And you are right, there is nothing immoral about owning a car, even though cars have killed hundreds of millions of people, both directly and indirectly Cars are a systemic problem, not an individual one.
cars have been involved in directly causing wars and killing for oil to make fuel for this one thing directly, drive. It's amazing when you think about it . It's an invention, yet we are a "car society " at this moment in time. Cyborgs...

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Old 12-04-21, 07:42 AM
  #60  
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All the Hi thoughts, etc. on his site have valid and unvalid points but for some of us it's just a way to SURVIVE! We are trying to live the best life we can due to our older age, physcial/medical problems and very limited fixed Social Security Retirement Income! A automobile with it's insurance, upkeep, payments, etc. is just NOT a viable idea at this time and situation. So we are "CAR FREE", not because the earth is dying, population is increasing, etc. It is the BEST we can do in our current situation, maybe we can work up again but at 67, it's not looking good. Do we MISS having a truck, HELL YES, we surely miss being able to transport our bicycles to different trails and areas of the USA but that was the past, our future is area recreation and utility rides, (I have a home built utility trailer to get FOOD and larger items), otherwise it's large paninners for the load. The only insanity we face is the RENTS in Co. Springs, CO. (I'm a native) have gone NUTS in the last 5 years and or outpacing our income 10 to 1! We only live for so long do what you can the best you can and ENJOY it while it lasts! JMHO, YMMV. Have excellent day!
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Old 12-05-21, 08:35 AM
  #61  
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"Convenience" is the most violent word in the english language.
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Old 12-10-21, 06:19 PM
  #62  
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TP is/was a nut! I didn't think he still posted until I saw this. About a third of the people posting in this thread are nuts!
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Old 12-13-21, 09:44 PM
  #63  
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agreed

Originally Posted by bjjoondo View Post
All the Hi thoughts, etc. on his site have valid and unvalid points but for some of us it's just a way to SURVIVE! We are trying to live the best life we can due to our older age, physcial/medical problems and very limited fixed Social Security Retirement Income! A automobile with it's insurance, upkeep, payments, etc. is just NOT a viable idea at this time and situation. So we are "CAR FREE", not because the earth is dying, population is increasing, etc. It is the BEST we can do in our current situation, maybe we can work up again but at 67, it's not looking good. Do we MISS having a truck, HELL YES, we surely miss being able to transport our bicycles to different trails and areas of the USA but that was the past, our future is area recreation and utility rides, (I have a home built utility trailer to get FOOD and larger items), otherwise it's large paninners for the load. The only insanity we face is the RENTS in Co. Springs, CO. (I'm a native) have gone NUTS in the last 5 years and or outpacing our income 10 to 1! We only live for so long do what you can the best you can and ENJOY it while it lasts! JMHO, YMMV. Have excellent day!
I lived in Chicago area and the same thing rents tripled in the last 25 years. I doubt some one that was making $20 per hour is making $60 per hour now. What is happening ?
but I hear you about living best you can. If we keep on complaining, you lose the beauty that you have around you nw.
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Old 12-15-21, 02:47 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by StarBiker View Post
TP is/was a nut! I didn't think he still posted until I saw this. About a third of the people posting in this thread are nuts!
Hmmm. 1/3? I guess those would be the ones pointing out the irony that is LCF. 2/3 of LCF posters are passionate car advocates and whenever the discussion comes up can be counted upon to make it clear that living without a car is not practical, safe, enjoyable, wise, or any other good thing. Well ... living WITH cars for as long as we have has, in fact, put our planet on life support. It will take awhile for that to become apparent. But long before that ... in fact right now someone (not me) just became aware that they are going to die very soon and it is directly attributable to the out of control proliferation of ICE cars in our country and in our world.

I had a conversation with a 30 year old recently. He said he realized that electric cars were the rational evolution of personal transportation but he didn't want one because they are boring. At least he drives a Honda Civic. Raise your hand if your personal 'car' is a Ford F-150. How many of you realize this is a zombie thread from 2016 recently re-booted? I wonder how many of the posters from back then are still here. Cars are killing us. They need to be made electric and/or autonomous and there is scant progress in that direction. The present car culture cannot be defended on any rational basis. There is a false choice presented when the only alternative to a bicycle is a car! You may not LIKE to take mass transit, but that does not mean it doesn't exist as an option when cycling isn't practical.

As I understand it, we have reached the tipping point where it is now impossible for a man to avoid Prostate Cancer. If a man reaches 65 y.o. he will develop PC. No exceptions. It may not be what kills him, but he 'will' get it. Why is that of significance? Because if ... when, a man is diagnosed with PC it is no longer business as usual. He will be put on Testosterone blocking medication, and at that point he will just look like a man. He won't feel very manly and unless his life is incredibly rewarding and successful, life is going to become somewhat of a slog ... more of a slog. He will have possibly 20 years to enjoy that before more serious symptoms set in. Cadmium and/or volatile organics from the emissions of billions of internal combustion engines, large and small have saturated humanity and when LCF advocates were urging restrictions on car culture ... well we were nuts. Are nuts. Whatever. Water under the bridge.

So, me and mine ... we are so ... nutty, that even though we could buy a house off the grid, we paid twice as much to live near downtown in excellent proximity to the main transit hubs. We spent extra time looking for a townhouse with a garage big enough for four tandems and five single bikes. We don't do this because we think we are going to save the planet. The planet is toast. We didn't break it and we can't fix it. So we aren't trying to. But every one of our friends that own cars has had them stolen in the last couple of years. Stolen and/or wrecked. None of them get exercise, all of them eat conventional American diets. No, we LCF because the THOUSANDS per year that ... normal people are sinking into their car(s) we sink into gym memberships, Light Rail Passes, organic food, home improvements, vacations. YMMV.
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Old 12-17-21, 11:09 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by StarBiker View Post
TP is/was a nut! I didn't think he still posted until I saw this. About a third of the people posting in this thread are nuts!
Obviously TP's spirit remains alive in the comatose LCF list.
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Old 12-19-21, 09:24 PM
  #66  
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Great post

Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Hmmm. 1/3? I guess those would be the ones pointing out the irony that is LCF. 2/3 of LCF posters are passionate car advocates and whenever the discussion comes up can be counted upon to make it clear that living without a car is not practical, safe, enjoyable, wise, or any other good thing. Well ... living WITH cars for as long as we have has, in fact, put our planet on life support. It will take awhile for that to become apparent. But long before that ... in fact right now someone (not me) just became aware that they are going to die very soon and it is directly attributable to the out of control proliferation of ICE cars in our country and in our world.

I had a conversation with a 30 year old recently. He said he realized that electric cars were the rational evolution of personal transportation but he didn't want one because they are boring. At least he drives a Honda Civic. Raise your hand if your personal 'car' is a Ford F-150. How many of you realize this is a zombie thread from 2016 recently re-booted? I wonder how many of the posters from back then are still here. Cars are killing us. They need to be made electric and/or autonomous and there is scant progress in that direction. The present car culture cannot be defended on any rational basis. There is a false choice presented when the only alternative to a bicycle is a car! You may not LIKE to take mass transit, but that does not mean it doesn't exist as an option when cycling isn't practical.

As I understand it, we have reached the tipping point where it is now impossible for a man to avoid Prostate Cancer. If a man reaches 65 y.o. he will develop PC. No exceptions. It may not be what kills him, but he 'will' get it. Why is that of significance? Because if ... when, a man is diagnosed with PC it is no longer business as usual. He will be put on Testosterone blocking medication, and at that point he will just look like a man. He won't feel very manly and unless his life is incredibly rewarding and successful, life is going to become somewhat of a slog ... more of a slog. He will have possibly 20 years to enjoy that before more serious symptoms set in. Cadmium and/or volatile organics from the emissions of billions of internal combustion engines, large and small have saturated humanity and when LCF advocates were urging restrictions on car culture ... well we were nuts. Are nuts. Whatever. Water under the bridge.

So, me and mine ... we are so ... nutty, that even though we could buy a house off the grid, we paid twice as much to live near downtown in excellent proximity to the main transit hubs. We spent extra time looking for a townhouse with a garage big enough for four tandems and five single bikes. We don't do this because we think we are going to save the planet. The planet is toast. We didn't break it and we can't fix it. So we aren't trying to. But every one of our friends that own cars has had them stolen in the last couple of years. Stolen and/or wrecked. None of them get exercise, all of them eat conventional American diets. No, we LCF because the THOUSANDS per year that ... normal people are sinking into their car(s) we sink into gym memberships, Light Rail Passes, organic food, home improvements, vacations. YMMV.
not only very insightful and correct, but our love of cars has directly lead us to constant wars. Its amazing is so obvious yet we just go along like nothing is wrong. Our economy is based on oil /wars/ car production, has been for a loooong time . As soon as a certain number of units are not sold our economy crashes . In one way or another we are all attached to this for our livelihood, if you do not directly work for the industry , some where along the line some where in the chain your are linked. We are just like the song says 🎶🎶😎. " despite all my rage I'm just a rat 🐀 in the cage "🎶🎶🎶
PS, I'm not so sure its the liking cars and liking to drive, but more that our economy is situated in a way that so many million units have to be produced and sold in order to feed the machine. The machine is mass production....

Last edited by rossiny; 12-19-21 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 04-11-22, 02:02 AM
  #67  
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Very interesting

I find this topic very relevant in what has happened to society. The reason cars are so convenient is because every facet of life is built around cars. Just think how we cater to this one product. Yes cars are a product. Roads and cities are designed for >> cars. The taxes are collected for>> road building. We go to war to secure fuel for >>this product. We constantly bail out car companies, because they're too big to fail. Our economy is so interwoven with this industry it's mind boggling , tires, steel, aluminum, paint, plastics . So when we say they are "convenient" , there really is a lot of catering, to this 1 product, for the illusion of "convenience ".
Hopefully at some point and time humans wake up to how unconvienent cars really are . When you factor in the pollution /war cost especially.. then you realize the true cost$$$ , goes beyond dollars.

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Old 04-11-22, 05:12 AM
  #68  
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As cities expand, greater distance between where people live and where they need to go increases and going to only one place makes no sense, now that gas prices are so high. It IS about convenience, but also about independence. With a car, there's not much to limit where someone can go, although time of day does make a difference. I refuse to drive to New Berlin from Glendale or anywhere North of Downtown after about 2:30PM because there's a good chance that I-94 & I-45 will be backed up on either leg, or both. A car also allows someone to hold a better job, rather than rely on mass transportation systems that waste a lot of time.
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Old 04-11-22, 11:17 AM
  #69  
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I grew up in Europe and have lived in the US for the past 20 years. The US is a car based culture and I am not sure it will ever change. I am living here in the DFW area which is THE or one of the fastest growing areas and it is horrible to watch that, although we are now in the 21st century, all the city planning is still about cars. And only about cars. All the new neighbor hoods being developed north of DFW do not have access to light rail, busses or any other form of transportation besides cars. Lots of funding for roads and none for public transport. And the cities put in the roads but the developers have to put in trails and sidewalks. Meaning we have an ever growing patchwork of trails which isn't really usable for commuting or running errands until they get connected at some unknown point in the future. And we are talking urban and suburban areas and not rural country side.
Yes electric cars are less polluting but the electricity has to come from somewhere. We already had several rolling power outages in the past years because of heat or cold waves bringing the north Texas grid to its knees and an abundance of electric vehicles would make it even worse. And they still take up space. Using electric cars won't change the grid lock.
But as long as energy is as cheap as it is today people will still buy a 2 ton vehicle to move their butt from point A to point B. On top of that many people here in the US seem to think hat public transport is for "poor" folks who can't afford a car.
Many countries in Europe already changed their policies decades ago. Especially in urban areas where the focus has been more about public transport than individual car traffic. Often public transport such as light rail or subways are being developed and put in before the housing goes in. And sometimes whole new neighbor hoods are being built were residents are not even allowed to use cars. As an example Holland was a car country in the 50 through 60s. Then they started to rethink their policies. Cities changed planning which required that grocery stores, schools, train stations, movie theaters all had to be within short cycling distance. Cars got less lanes, bikes got more lanes. Yes this change took decades but they realized something had to be done 50 years ago. Other countries such as Germany followed suit although not as fast. But I remember car lanes being removed or being narrowed for new bike lanes when growing up. And this started in the 70s and 80s.
I wish the US would follow as well. Especially when new brand new neighborhoods are being built. But unfortunately I don't see that happen.
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Old 04-12-22, 12:59 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Gym123456 View Post
As cities expand, greater distance between where people live and where they need to go increases and going to only one place makes no sense, now that gas prices are so high. It IS about convenience, but also about independence. With a car, there's not much to limit where someone can go, although time of day does make a difference. I refuse to drive to New Berlin from Glendale or anywhere North of Downtown after about 2:30PM because there's a good chance that I-94 & I-45 will be backed up on either leg, or both. A car also allows someone to hold a better job, rather than rely on mass transportation systems that waste a lot of time.
What "mass transportation system "??
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Old 04-12-22, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Harhir View Post
I grew up in Europe and have lived in the US for the past 20 years. The US is a car based culture and I am not sure it will ever change. I am living here in the DFW area which is THE or one of the fastest growing areas and it is horrible to watch that, although we are now in the 21st century, all the city planning is still about cars. And only about cars. All the new neighbor hoods being developed north of DFW do not have access to light rail, busses or any other form of transportation besides cars. Lots of funding for roads and none for public transport. And the cities put in the roads but the developers have to put in trails and sidewalks. Meaning we have an ever growing patchwork of trails which isn't really usable for commuting or running errands until they get connected at some unknown point in the future. And we are talking urban and suburban areas and not rural country side.
Yes electric cars are less polluting but the electricity has to come from somewhere. We already had several rolling power outages in the past years because of heat or cold waves bringing the north Texas grid to its knees and an abundance of electric vehicles would make it even worse. And they still take up space. Using electric cars won't change the grid lock.
But as long as energy is as cheap as it is today people will still buy a 2 ton vehicle to move their butt from point A to point B. On top of that many people here in the US seem to think hat public transport is for "poor" folks who can't afford a car.
Many countries in Europe already changed their policies decades ago. Especially in urban areas where the focus has been more about public transport than individual car traffic. Often public transport such as light rail or subways are being developed and put in before the housing goes in. And sometimes whole new neighbor hoods are being built were residents are not even allowed to use cars. As an example Holland was a car country in the 50 through 60s. Then they started to rethink their policies. Cities changed planning which required that grocery stores, schools, train stations, movie theaters all had to be within short cycling distance. Cars got less lanes, bikes got more lanes. Yes this change took decades but they realized something had to be done 50 years ago. Other countries such as Germany followed suit although not as fast. But I remember car lanes being removed or being narrowed for new bike lanes when growing up. And this started in the 70s and 80s.
I wish the US would follow as well. Especially when new brand new neighborhoods are being built. But unfortunately I don't see that happen.
Holland is smaller in area than all US states, other than Rhode Island- much easier to make such drastic changes in the transportation system than in a country that's as large and decentralized as the US. Also, the US wasn't bombed to smithereens in the not so distant past, as Europe was. Also, many US cities are more populated than the whole country of Holland and mass transportation just wouldn't work when many jobs are outside of the city by necessity.
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Old 04-12-22, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rossiny View Post
What "mass transportation system "??
Here, none. I meant it as a general term. MKE's bus system isn't large enough to be called that and its management could never handle a real mass transportation system nor would the public adopt it. It would be difficult to build one here because of the layout. Great for a newer city, though.
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Old 04-14-22, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gym123456 View Post
Holland is smaller in area than all US states, other than Rhode Island- much easier to make such drastic changes in the transportation system than in a country that's as large and decentralized as the US. Also, the US wasn't bombed to smithereens in the not so distant past, as Europe was. Also, many US cities are more populated than the whole country of Holland and mass transportation just wouldn't work when many jobs are outside of the city by necessity.
I know Europe is smaller and I understand that it is difficult to add in mass transport in existing dense development. But here in the DFW area most developments are only 20 - 30 years old. Some of the northern cities grew from like 100K population to 200K in less than 10 years. There is not much old development which would hinder mass transportation. And they are still expanding like crazy and building acres of brand new suburbs from scratch on what was farmland before. There would be great opportunities to come up with great alternative transportation solutions when you start from scratch. But this just does not happen.
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Old 04-14-22, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Harhir View Post
I know Europe is smaller and I understand that it is difficult to add in mass transport in existing dense development. But here in the DFW area most developments are only 20 - 30 years old. Some of the northern cities grew from like 100K population to 200K in less than 10 years. There is not much old development which would hinder mass transportation. And they are still expanding like crazy and building acres of brand new suburbs from scratch on what was farmland before. There would be great opportunities to come up with great alternative transportation solutions when you start from scratch. But this just does not happen.
Another issue is that even though the US isn't nearly as old as Europe, it hasn't been blown to smithereens and rebuilt in the last 100 years- as young as it is, the US still has a fair number of buildings that are considered 'historic' and can't be moved or destroyed. Some cities are so overbuilt that building a light or high speed rail system could only happen if they put it outside and use some other system to bring people into the center which might not be a bad idea.

Is there some kind of rail system in that stretch that goes to DFW, near Grapevine? I haven't been there since 2001 and would imagine it has changed a lot since then. I was also there New Year's Eve 1999 and stayed less than a mile from the Dunham's Sporting Goods store where the escaped convicts killed the security guard- that sucked. It was good to see that they were caught.
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Old 04-19-22, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Gym123456 View Post
Is there some kind of rail system in that stretch that goes to DFW, near Grapevine? I haven't been there since 2001 and would imagine it has changed a lot since then.
Yes it has changed a lot. There are two train lines into the Airport.
One is the TexRail line from Fort Worth to the Airport also stopping in Grapevine:
https://ridetrinitymetro.org/texrail-schedule/
The other one is the Orange Line from the DART train running from Plano through downtown Dallas to the airport.
https://www.dart.org/maps/currentand...ervicesmap.asp
And they are currently building a third line. The Silver line running East-West from Plano via Addison and Carrollton to the Airport. This is supposed to be finished in 2024. And it is also supposed to have a trail running beside it.
https://www.dart.org/about/expansion/silverline.asp
I am really looking forward to that line.
But all the brand new neighborhoods in the north currently mushrooming out of the green ground like crazy such as Frisco, Allen, McKinney, Prosper, Celina, .... will not be connected to any form of public transport. And trails won't be in there either anytime soon. You need to have a car if you want to move there.
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